My DS is only 4, and is generally an incredible easy going cooperative child. But there are a few settings in which he acts out and I just don't understand his behavior at all. He just gets all goofy in groups. He says silly things, he doesn't listen good, he is not at all himself. Not so say he is perfect one on one, but significantly different and better behaved. He just started pre-k a couple weeks ago and his behavior at his pre-k the last few days hasn't been great. He behaves well over all and for at least the first week they said he was a pleasure to have in their class, but yesterday he decided to move all their furniture around which he told me they didn't like (I still don't understand why no one saw him doing this or stopped him, but I will have to check on that). And today he told us that he didn't want to sit during their project so they put him in time out and that they wouldn't let him jump on the trampoline so he threw a dinosaur model at the teacher. Now I heard nothing about this so I don't really know (I will call tomorrow, it's hard because I don't pick him up or drop him off). I just don't understand him and I worry about him in Kindergarten and how he is going to do. That is if he goes straight to K, I don't know what we are going to do with him. We are thinking that he is highly/profoundly gifted based on the things that he has done and continues to do. It seems like his behavior is worse with more stimulus. He told me today that he thinks that there are too many kids in his preschool. And some days he says "I hope there won't be as many kids there today."

Anyone else have, or had a child with behavior issues such as this? I try to tell myself that he is 4 and will outgrow it soon since there is generally a big change in behavior between 4 and 5. I work with this age group all day long...but not with gifted children. Any thoughts?

Hi, shellymos,

My first thought is that if this is the first time he's been in pre-k, he could just be trying to find his way in a group setting. Can't offer any other advice, but I'm sure someone will chime in.

Shellymos,
My heart goes out to you!
I hope you find out the 'school's side of the story' soon - but it sure would make me wonder.

How many hours/week is this activity?

How does your son behave in groups of older children?

I've BTDT, and I don't see how putting a child in a group that he can't possibly handle will teach him to behave well in groups. Why do I think it's likely that your son can't possibly handle this group? Because I've seen my own PG kid just plain not be able to handle either agemates, or interacting with the teachers who have a clear picture of 'what 4 year olds are like and what they need.'

I don't know if your son is ready for K now. If he will be ready for K next year. If he ever would be able to tolerate K. I do know that there are some kids who will tolerate much more than they should - to the point where they get sick from it, and there are other kids who act out when they can't take it.

Apparently you and I have the acty-outy kind. I count my blessings.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Thanks for the responses,
Re: Squirt's question...he was in pre-k last year a couple days a week for a few hours, but I pulled him out because he was acting out some (very minor) and they didn't seem to like him (long story). Anyhow, his last pre-k was too structured and a little too academic for him as reviewing shapes and letters was not his thing at the time...he bored quickly of that.

He typically does better with older children, but has never been in groups of older children. One on one he does pretty good. With adults he is great! I did speak with his teacher today and the child she described does not at all sound like my own. Granted, my DS is slightly impulsive at times...but she said some things that he did that really seem very mean and unlike him. And it all started suddenly 2 days ago (the same day that I happened to start him on a steroid inhaler for his asthma because he was having a hard time breathing). Anyhow, that may be impacting his behavior somewhat as I have noticed this before on days that I give it to him...I have talked with the doctor about that but that's another issue.

But I agree, he may not be able to tolerate groups of peers his age. They do some things that he does enjoy doing on his own though. and he says he really likes pre-k and his teachers. His teachers are really good with him which I am very thankful for. It's just hard to hear of my sweet caring sensitive boy acting like such a maniac. his teacher told me that yesterday he went over to a group of children playing chutes and ladders and just picked up the board and threw it on the floor. What is that about? I just don't get it at all. He has never done anything like that before.

Steroids can certainly affect behavior. I would check into that...he may be able to switch medications to something with fewer side-effects.

I would definitely look into the steroids. May be don't send him back till he is done with them or switch to a different medication. I would also suggest that you go and observe the class if it doesn't get better.

It's tough to find a placement that is structured, but not structured. I chose this pre-k because there was more free play and less "you have to sit and color the apple red" going on. I know he doesn't do will with arbitrary rules, so this place seemed very laid back...but clearly has routine and structure. But maybe not enough? Don't know. Anyhow, today apparently another child drew on the table with a crayon. The teacher told the other student not to draw on the table with a crayon. Then DS picked up a crayon and drew on the table. He has never even considered doing anything with a crayon/marker other than coloring. He is very good at following and understanding rules, but it was almost like "well this little kid did it, so I am going to try it too." Interesting. I do think he is very clear on rules and expectations at school and at home. He always is able to tell you what he should or shouldn't do and why. It's just this recent impulsivity that is driving me nuts.

Yes, I do think the steroids are a factor. I will most likely try to observe him sometime soon. I am waiting to hear back from the doctor about changing the meds and I think I am going to try to not give it to him tomorrow am and just give it to him in the afternoon instead. I am concerned about keeping him out of pre-k while waiting because he likes pre-k and I dont' want him to feel like he is being punished. Plus they are able to deal with him and seem to understand. today was pretty good, other than drawing on the table and dumping out magnets. There was no throwing or hitting. I guess that's good.

Shellymos, I have a friend whose ds was put on a new asthma medication and became aggressive at school. Once the medicine was changed, he went back to normal.

I am apologetically hi-jacking a thread from 2008 because I would like to know which asthma meds have less side effects, and what effects you have seen. It is full blown pollen season here in GA right now, and my DS-almost4 is a mess. We have tried four different steroids, and they all have crazy side effects. The least being him running to the bathroom with diarhea in the morning (like 5x's in a row)...the worst being tantrums and hitting. DS hates feeling this way, but we don't know what to do. Please help if you can. His asthma is really bad, and seemingly getting worse every season. (He has wheat and dairy allergies (although not deadly) as well, as an aside.)

Is he taking oral steroid? Or are you using a nebulizer or inhaled? I assume he also has something like Albuterol to go with the steroid?

Steroids all have that kind of side effects. Some kids may experience more side effect than others. There are ways to reduce steroid dose, but it's impossible to eliminate it .

There is a new group of drugs called Leukotriene Receptor Antagonist. One of the brand names is called Singulair (oral). This is in addition to, but not to replace steroid. However, you might be able to use less steroid with this on board.

Since he is so young, there are drugs that are not approved for 4 and younger. However, some doctors are willing to prescribe drugs that are approved for 5 and up in special cases. There is one called Serevent(inhaler), which is like a long acting alberterol. Again, this is in addition to steroid, hoping to reduce steroid dose. There is another group called Mast Cell Stabilizer. One of the brand name in this group is called Cromolyn. It is approved for 4 yo and under but not a first line treatment for asthma.

Please keep in mind these are all just suggestions. From what I know there is almost no way to eliminate steroid.

bump

I changed the subject. I hope you get some good replies. It is awful when your kids are hurting.

EW

Hi Mom0405, my DS4 was recently on a 3 week oral steroid course and during those three weeks his behaviour really changed! He is usually rather quiet and reserved and his teacher described him as very "talkative" and "bouncy" during this time! His steroid (which he had with another medicine) was to treat a stomach problem as he was struggling to absorb his food. I am not sure what steroids you have used, but in our experience they can have massive side effects (but in our case it was worth continuing and was only for a short period).

Also, asthma is something entirely different,and needs to be taken very seriously. Is your family doctor helpful, if so it might be worth going back to them and reviewing all your options?

Sorry I can't be more help.

XX

Thank you all. I wish that "bouncy and talkative" was the case:(...he has been so easy to upset, very tired, and extremely cranky, very prone to quick fits (moody). And we have an extremely peaceful household, except for when we are purposefully crazy and silly. So, it's just not him. We can get him to calm down fairly quickly, but a new teacher probably wouldn't be able to. Snuggling has helped a lot; but we are about to try a new school, and are afraid that they will think that he is psychotic or something on the steroid and kick him out. Poor thing. Our allergist gave us three options, of which we tried them all. Singulair (oral)-quick mood swings, like now; Flovent(inhaler)-current "psychosis"; Pulmicort(nebulizer)-diarrhea. I had not heard of the ones suggested by fangcyn. I have to have another sit down with his allergist, I guess. He didn't tell me about the others. We had a recent trip to the hospital because DS's little heart was beating out of his chest the last time we used the albuterol, and he was panting still after 6 hours and a nap. They thought he may have asperated something, but an urgent care and a hospital visit, with 6 x-rays (and 3am) later, his lungs were pronounced ok. The doc gave us Xopenex as his rescue inhaler instead of albuterol to see if it would make a difference; but I don't know at this point if it is a contributing factor to his moodiness or not. Is that possible? He has been taking a steroid for the last 6 days (not today); and I know that it stays in the system for a while. He hates feeling this way. But the pollen is so bad right now that it's effecting my asthma as well; and my system is tough.

If any one has any descriptions or suggestoins of what their kids have experienced on certain steroid meds, or just allergy meds it would really help. Thank you!

I was told by ER that oral steroids have tons of side effects and should only be used in an emergency!
Our pediatrician prescribed it way way too much!
MY DS6 is on singulair and then when he wheezes he uses alburterol. You know there is a higher rate of asthma among mensans! This is interesting. And a new study linked a lot of tv/computer as toddlers to having a higher rate of asthma. I bet more mensans or highter IQ persons do more non physical activies and hence their lungs are not as strong. Just interesting. I heard swimming can help strengthen the lungs.

Interesting. DS4 has asthma, thankfully it has been much better lately. He has only had like 2-3 attacks per year (spring, late spring and fall). It was recommended that we use pulmicort through the nebulizer, but I swear he had behavior outbursts on this, so we switched it to flovent. He took it a few weeks ago for about 2 weeks and he was a more emotional that usual, but it seemed better than the pulmicort and it helped his asthma. The goal of using these it to avoid having to use prednisone (oral steroid). So although doctors tell us to keep using it for months at a time, we start giving him his flovent as soon as he starts to cough, we give it to him 2x daily until about a week after the coughing stops. If it starts back up, we will start the flovent up...but we haven't had to. Usually he will be good for several months and symptom free. We have told our doctors this and they said if it works then keep it up. He has seasonal allergies as well and have found nothing that really helps. They aren't severe though, and I don't feel like going through the test with all the pricks. I still remember how awful that was.

Sorry you are having such difficulty finding the right medicine. I don't think Flovent is perfect at all, but it has prevented prednisone which I feel is worse...and he doesn't have to take it forever so for now it is working.

And as for swimming strengthening lungs, I wish DS4 would do that. We just had to quit swimming lessons because he was SOOOO anxious about it it was pointless. Oh well, maybe next year.

The inhaled steroid pulmocort supposedly is fine it is the prednisone IS BAD!!!!!!!! The ER freaked us out, they said it causes diabetes and I forget what else. They said only an Emergency. One night my DS could not breath could not talk, ok so then he needed it but for mild, moderate wheezing they told us DON'T USE IT! Spring and Fall is bad for our DS6 also.
I was just at the dr and he said Pumicort is like singulair both to help prevent asthma. Singulair is easy just one pill a day our allergist said 20 million people are on it and it is safe so we went with it. I think it is really the Prednisone that is bad. Oh the allergist told us one dose stays in the body for 1 year!

SOrry to hear about the swimming.
We are going to try it this summer I hope!
But any exercise it good to build the lungs.

We are constantly running, and live on 6 acres in the GA, so the seasonal allergies are worse here. He 'acts' ok running - meaning it doesn't bother him - but we have to stop him and make him take deep breaths and cough out the asthma related junk. Starting swimming again is a good idea, thanks. Unfortunately he is not very athletic, but does like to run and play chase and follow the leader (as long as he is the leader:).

Has your DS6 has any mood side effects on the Singulair, as far as you've noticed?

No side effects, our allergist said 20 million people are on it , he made us more comforable giving him something everyday.
Can your DS tell you when he is wheezing?
The dr just told is if DS is wheezing slightly do a treatment and it is safe to go out after 20 minutes.
Oh and you prob already know anything that cools the airways is not good. So Ice cream, Ice, Slurpies! Those are a big trigger esp if it is cool outside.
Oh and get that peak flow meter if you don't already have it. It will calm you down when you think your DS can't breathe, if he can do the peak flow and numbers are high you will relax.

Wish I had 6 acres of land!! Living in NYC we are on top of each other.

I may need to try the Singulair again. It was at a stressful time at DS's old school for him, and may not have been it at all. But I read lots of comments on the web about it. Our allergist told us that it was safe as well; but he also mentioned something about how some claimed depression and suicides because of it in teens. I looked up the comments; and they of course scared me.
DS will not tell us if he is wheezing, I can hear it. He becomes a little more short of breath, and then I ask him to take a deep breath and cough. If it is productive, then I know for sure. I am usually right.
I did not know that about cooling the airways. I was always told that we should take him outside on a cool moist night when he was little, and that it would help.
I will get the peak flow meter. I didn't realize that I could. Thank you!

Cool moist air doesn't apply to kids w/Astha.
If a kid has the croup they tell you to go outside in the cold but NOT for a kids w/asthma and Dr forget to add this.
I dk how many drs we saw b4 finally one of them told me that anything that cools the airways is bad.
The peak flow meter the kid blows and there is a danger zone so if it is in the danger zone then you know you have an emergency. Most of the time a little wheeze doesn't affect the breathing too much. But we have to treat it so it doesn't get worse and close more. But it does relax us. And it took many drs to tell us about the peak flow meter too!

It has been great for our DS to be able to run around. He probably has better balance because of it, as it is slightly sloped.

My DD7 also has asthma and we tried a bunch of stuff. She seemed to do o.k with medicine only when she had a respiratory illness which happened 2 or 3 times a year. We tried albuteral both liquid and through the nebulizer. It made her very jumpy. We tried it when she was between 1 and 3 years of age off and on. We then switched to pulmicort and xopenex both through the nebulizer. I loved them - no side effects whatsoever. When she started school she seemed to get sick more often and even got pneumonia. We then tried Singular for daily use to prevent attacks. The Singular gave her night terrors. We tried both the 4mg and 5mg and she could not tolerate either dosage. I have heard about this happening with other children as well. We also got an albuteral inhaler for emergency situations and it seems the albuteral does not make her as jumpy now as it did when she was younger.

As she got older the nebulizer really got to be a pain to use so now we have switched to Pulmicort Flexhaler which I really like as well as the Pulmicort delivered via the nebulizer. As many people have mentioned the Prednisone really works great when you have an emergency, but there are a lot of side effects of oral steroids. When she first took the oral steroids when she was younger they made her very emotional everything would cause her to break down and cry, she was really mean and demanding as well. I no longer notice this problem as she has aged. It is really just trial and error finding something that works for your child. The older they get though the better they are at helping find something that works for them. I hope you find something that works for you.

Sorry to hear Singulair gave your DD nightmares.
Albuterol does make them hyper.
We use Xopenex too.
I hope all of our kids will grow out of having Asthma.
It is really scary.
We had 1 emergency where DS could not breathe, could not talk we had to call 911. It was SCARY!

Thank you; all this info is helpful. My DS(almost4) is prone to night terrors/mares, but we think he is feeling safer now that he is co-sleeping - hopefully it is temporary - the co-sleeping. He was feeling unsafe because of three new unruly boys at his old school. The allergist, who I trust, told us that it didn't matter what time it was when giving DS the Singulair, as long as it was the same time every day. The med directions say to give it before bedtime; but we were giving it at breakfast so we could see if there were any reactions. Maybe that's what caused the night terrors for your DD7??

Ironically our allergist said give it at night so they get a good nights sleep LOL!

Singulair has less side effect than oral steroids. If adding Singulair means using less steroid and having less asthma attacks. I think it's a good thing. Oral steroids should be avoided unless he has severe asthma.

Xopenex is an isomer of albuterol. However, Xopenex has less palpitation side effect than albuterol. My ds has xopenex, but his hands still shake after the treatment.

In general, inhaled steroid + albuterol or xopenex (Short acting beta agonist) are the main treatment for asthma. It's important to have both. After that, the doctor should add Singulair or a long acting beta agonist like serevent if age appropriate. Cromolyn can also be added on. Oral steroid is the last resort.

Singulair gave my ds a 24 hour fever. I remember seeing his fever came on about an hour after taking Singulair and the fever was gone exactly 24 hours later. Nothing is said on the drug information of Singulair about nightmares. However, it does cause <1% of agitation, insomnia and a whole list of things. All drugs have side effects. It depends on whether the side effects shows up on you or not.

If pollen is an issue, does he have allergy medications, like Allegra and a nasal spray?

I have actually heard with asthma drinking cold water can really help. I know it has with me. I had severe asthma growing up, I spent most of my childhood in the hospital before 4 with continous double pneumonia, etc...anyhow, I grew out of it. I now take my inhaler maybe once a year. Soo...I am hopeful our little ones will get better as they grow older.

I have read that inhaled steroids don't really cause side effects, and I am sure it is rare...but I really think it did with DS. No doctor ever said it wouldn't, they just said that since it's inhaled it shouldn't be as bad as oral steroids. That makes sense.

And DS took swimming lessons in the summer and was fine...for some reason this time he is scared. We will try again later. We have a pool at home that he loves to go in. And he is quite an active boy. His asthma doesn't seem to be effected by running around. So that's good.

good stuff.

The allergy meds have been another crap shoot. It seems that his sensitivities change from year to year. Plus, he just got off wheat and dairy due to being allergic; so it's like starting new again with a "clean" body.

My ds's asthma has gotten a lot better over the years. He hasn't gotten one asthma attack for the past 2 years. He has also started swimming lessons through last winter. I really think swimming helps with his asthma.

Inhaled medications have a lot less side effect than oral ones because inhaled meds deliver straight into the lungs whereas oral steroids absorb into the blood (a systemic effect) then works wherever it's supposed to work. However, there are side effects associate with inhaled meds because drugs can cross the lungs/blood barriers into the blood stream to cause systemic effects. SE is definitely less with inhaled medications.

Hi - my DS5 has allergy-induced asthma, which is under control since he takes daily zyrtec at the highest dose recommended by the ped allergist. No side effects with the zyrtec, and once we switched to the higher dose, no asthma symptoms either (except once when we were at a house with cats too long). We did the steroid thing a couple years ago, and i can't remember the symptoms, but we didn't like it and were glad when albuterol inhaler was all that was needed.

I also have allergy-induced asthma, which is completely under control as long as I control the allergies with an antihistimine.

Good luck!

P.S. DS5 also has a dairy allergy, but we've had no incidents with it since he was 1. The zyrtec probably helps provide some protection against that too, in case of accidental exposure.

Thanks. Neither of us can take Zyrtec. Honestly, if I hadn't tried it the first time my DS tried it, I may not have known how he was feeling. We had the same anxious reaction. We both wanted to scream; well, he did. That's why he is so difficult to medicate. He has reactions like I do, unfortunately. I have tried homeopathic allergy meds for him as well, to no avail. He'll take Children's Benadryl, but it makes him very tired. I probably need to re-visit some past trials now that his body chemistry is free of food allergans.

Hi Cindi,
Yeah oral steroid last resort but my pediatrician prescribed it way too much!
We do use nasonex, although a lot of times I forget to use it, like today!
How is Allegra?

You are lucky you grew out of it! Hope your DS will too.
I guess the triggers differ for everybody.
I just wish someone told me earlier that cold could be a trigger. I didn't make the connection everytime I gave my DS ice he would wheeze. Finally an allergist told us.
You are lucky running doesn't affect your DS.
I am not sure if it is simply the running for my DS or the running when it is cool out. He was fine last summer in the heat.

Not sure on the asthma - but I know DS6 allergies will kick in VA in the next 2-3 weeks. I think it was last year the school asked if he was on Zyrtec - they'd sent several kids home for hyper behavior and automatically assumed DS6 hyperness that week was due to medication. We mostly use Benydryl for kids - or chewables - and the pediatrician said to use just plain SALINE spray up their nose to clear it out. If that works - its effective and a lot less "side effect" ridden than some of the other stuff. I've tried Allegra myself and gotten totally hyper and unable to sleep after just one dosage.

That said - when DS6 rubbed pollen in his eyes last April and then grit - his eyes were as big and swoleen as golf balls at one point - but an ice pack and a good night's sleep - he was all better. We had literally just been to the eye doctor that week and spent 2 nights n the ER with his dad - so I was No way going back to the doctor again!!

Good luck with the asthma. I'll post again if I find out more on that.

Oh, his breathing is effected by running, I just meant that he would probably run until he had no breath left.:) He won't stop unless we stop him. Goofy kid. Our OT suggested that I look online for some homeopathic remedies to see what's out there. We have plenty of stores around here like that as well. It's just another thing to re-visit. Everyone has been grat help. A lot of it is info I already knew, but needed to be reminded. I feel like my brain is in overload lately with trying to find a new school, his allergies and his coming off the steroids; and I can't think straight. So thank you!

WOW stay away from that pollen!! Geez eyes size of golf balls!! My DH would have freaked out! He alwasy over reacts!

OH I SEE! Well being your DS is very young almost 4 when he is a bit older he will most likely stop running or stop playing when he is wheezing. I think 5ish my DS who is 6 now stops. I can tell something is wrong when he sits on the bench or sits on the sidelines. As your DS gets older I am sure he will stop getting to that point though is rough.

Traceyqns, Allegra is an antihistamine, like Claritin and Zyrtec, also like Benedryl but without the drowsy side effect. I personally like Allegra more than others. Allegra and a nasal spray are usually used together for allegies. In general, antihistamine causes paradoxical excitation in some children. That's what Ironmom's kid had.

I think the oral steroid is for asthma to reduce inflammation of the lungs. OS is hardly used for allergies. What is the name of the steroid?

I haven't read this whole thread, but thought I might pipe in. This is my ds6, a stealth wheezer. He'll be chasing his brothers around the house trying to scare them (in typical, insecure alpha male style) while secretly having an O2 level in the 80's. If he ever actually complains that he can't breathe, he's either (a) faking it because he doesn't want to go to school, or (b) in the low 80's and needs oral steroids and a trip to the allergist.

Over the past several months we've been doing daily Flovent (steroid inhaler), one puff per day when he's ok, two when he's wheezy, in an effort to prevent him from getting very wheezy. He still has a few long stretches with daily albuterol, and we need to go back to the allergist to discuss. It's just hard to predict when such a stretch is coming on - it's not like I remember to write it down (duh) so that I could track it on an annual basis because I assume it's something in the air. I really ought to keep track.

What is now making me a tad nervous is our new vacation home which is at altitude (9,920 ft, nothing to sneeze at). Fortunately when we were there last week he sounded ok and his O2 on my little pulse ox (from REI, love this thing, works nicely because ds has fat fingers) was around 90 at bedtime - not super but acceptable. He runs low. But if he ever gets into trouble up there, sure there's a hospital down the road but the more responsible answer is to come home, back down to 6500 ft., except that it's a judgment call that means inconveniencing the whole family over his wheezing...

Yeah - okay - I don't like to exaggerate and "eyes as big as golf balls" was a bit of an exaggeration - but it really was scary - it was more like the entire eye lids got red and bloated and started to cover his eyes - making him look disfigured - and on the inside - the eyes looked like they could be little golf balls in there - expanding . Really scary. So glad it went away after a good's night sleep -because seriously -any mother would freak out when their kid's eyes look like that. I didn't grow up - so had NO idea pollen and mould could do that - but they can!!

That happened to my DS about a month ago, only in one eye. The ped was claiming pink eye; but the eye specialist said it was a severe allergic reaction...poor kids.

Hi Fangcyn,
The oral one Prednisolone was the one the ER drs and Heart drs freaked out when we told them we used it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They said all this bad stuff saying it causes diabetes and other diseases. I didn't use it a lot under 10 times but still times I didn't need to since they were not emergencies.
My Pediatrician prescribes it for every little wheeze BAD!!!
The allergist also freaked saying one dose stays in the sytem for 1 year! So technically it is still in my DS6's system.

And yes Claritin is great , no drowsiness, this too I found out not too long ago. A lof of people think Benadryl is the only option and I did too for a long time.

Is Singulair like alegra???