Thanks so much to everyone who replied. Your questions really guided my discussions with the girls and opened up some considerations I hadn't entertained.

I discussed this with both of my girls and interestingly, they chose precisely what was advised by several people. The little one was very excited about language 3 because, in her words, she already knows language 2 and language 1, so it's about time for her to learn a third, and she wants to meet children from culture 3. The older one said she didn't want to move schools as she was happy, but she'd love to do a before-school program with her friend. Voila, I have my answer.

We accepted with the immersion school for the wee one and now I have to deal with two PTSAs. %#&*!!!! Why do I make things hard on myself? Says the mom of two children who consistently say that they want to do their math in a different color for every number.

Regarding gifted education for the older one in elementary, that program is housed in her existing school, so we're EXTREMELY lucky in that respect.

Thanks again for your help.


Hi everyone.

I'm the mom of two bright kids. My older daughter (7) is academically high-achieving but does not display any "gifted as a personality type" traits academically. She is highly creative, like many children, artistically. She was tested for gifted services, with about 80% of her class, this winter. The reason they test something like 80% of the children is because it's in the first grade and there is an assumption that there is a larger error due to parental influence. I could go on and on about their testing system and other issues but that's beside the point. I'm just trying to give you background on my kid.

My younger daughter (4) is one of those typically "gifted personality" types, though she spends most of her intellectual energy on making jokes. At four, she does addition, subtraction, reads at end-of-k level in spite of the fact that she spends most of her time riding a bike. She just has to put in very little effort to pick up new concepts. But then, she puts in very little effort, period.

So, that's my kids.

Oh, yeah. They both have been in (paid) immersion for a second language up to this point and both read and write the language. Well, the four-year-old reads short words and writes phonetically.

The cutoff for gifted services in our district is about 98th% in the Iowa achievement and IQ of 145 +. In all fairness to my children, they are probably both at level for math, but language, because of immersion programs up to this point, with 6+ hours per day in a foreign language, are not that high. I seriously doubt either of them has an IQ well over 145, but who knows. I have never met a small child whose IQ was obviously over 145, but statistics suggest that I should have met at least a couple. I imagine they are hard to tell from the children with IQs of 125 unless you spent a ton of time with them or are some kind of expert in identifying such children.

So, the normal thing would just be to test and see, and if they don't get in, no biggy, we do home education and enrichment anyway.

But here's my question and I'm really interested to hear your experiences particularly with your high performance but not necessarily shockingly gifted kids:

We have applied to, and been accepted to, an immersion language program. It's a different language than the first immersion program. But we need to commit for the full six years. I mean, they can't stop us from leaving, but I don't want to be a jerk about it.

My older daughter's test scores come out about a week after we have to accept our invitation to the immersion school.

The school district is excellent. The student population at the immersion school is privileged, diverse, and committed. The gifted program here is out-of-this-world.

I'm agonizing over this decision. I don't want to pass up immersion or the gifted program. I'm absolutely sure we are not the only parents in this position and I imagine they have set the deadline pre-results to ensure our commitment to immersion over gifted services (though I could be wrong).

We will probably continue to do the first immersion language regardless, as an afterschool program.

I have given up a lot to give my kids these opportunities. We can't buy here--a one-bedroom house is half a million dollars. We are renting (it is also near work, of course--we're not crazy). So though this might sound like first-world problems, I'd really like to make the right choice.

Your thoughts, opinions, reactions, and personal experiences are most welcome. Thanks in advance.

I'm agonizing over this decision. I don't want to pass up immersion or the gifted program. I'm absolutely sure we are not the only parents in this position and I imagine they have set the deadline pre-results to ensure our commitment to immersion over gifted services (though I could be wrong).

Well, my DD is one of the shockingly gifted types... BUT-- it wasn't terribly, terribly obvious when she was four. Honestly, if you met her NOW (she's 14) you would probably just think that she was a fairly bright and pleasant 16yo. Unless she wanted you to see behind the screen, I mean. THEN you'd know that she's a kid with a peer reviewed publication under her belt already in STEM, etc. etc. My point is, she is considerably more like your younger child than your older one-- but that isn't because of her ability, but because of her personality. She's an intrinsically motivated social chameleon. Even profoundly gifted children come in this variety.

I hope you don't mind if I offer a few observations here.

The first is that telling well-prepped kids at IQ 125 from non-prepped ones at 145 might be difficult at 2-7yo, but trust me when I say that by middle school, YOU KNOW. It becomes glaringly obvious, even in children who are "pleasers" by nature and tend to blend into their surroundings. They always have these "tells" that give you brief glimpses into an intellect that doesn't match the surroundings. It's hard to say what those look like, but they are definitely moments that give adults double-takes.


1. Many parents of highly gifted children find that the challenge of a GREAT immersion program makes up for a world of sins in a "gifted" program, particularly one which is in any way lackluster or more about TigerParenting/high-achievement rather than gifted needs.


2. Gifted programs are most definitely NOT all created equal-- what is actually meant by "out of this world?" And how many kids do you know in it? what are they like? More like your oldest? Or your youngest? Given your description-- I'd think VERY carefully about whether or not the gifted program is about GIFTED children, or is it about parents of high-achieving children-- now, either way it might be a good fit for your own kids, it's just that it changes the set of parameters.

3. Are you open to having one child in EACH program? I ask because a "high achiever" gifted program sounds like it may NOT be a good fit for your younger child.

4. Can you reapply to immersion in another year for one/both children if you're wrong about the gifted placement/program?

The two biggest questions I'd have - do the kids WANT to go to this language immersion school? Are they truly excited about it?

Second question - does the immersion school have any sort of program for gifted kids? Do they do any sort of accommodations, if necessary?

You may find interesting the recent thread on "Spanish Immersion" http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/175143/1.html . My skepticism of language immersion is expressed in the post http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....209/Re_Spanish_Immersion.html#Post175209 .

Thanks for your replies, @HowlerKarma, @Bostonian, and @Amy.

To answer your questions:

Amy


My four-year-old loves school and loves learning, but she is mainly excited about the bus. She wants to sit on the bus. There is no bus to the immersion school at this point. She wants to learn the second language, though. She said "Yes, I want to learn [second language], because I already know English, right? And I know [first foreign language]. So I can start something else." My older daughter wants to stay with friends, and the gifted program is accommodated in her existing school. She is interested in taking classes in [second language] before school, which might be a better fit for her, since it expands her social circles rather than circumscribes them. You can't circumscribe a circle, can you... or at least, that doesn't mean making it smaller. You get the point, I hope.


Children from the immersion school may transfer out if necessary. However, it is clear from the set-up of the school that it is a concept school which is already attracting highly motivated children and families. They will follow the state curriculum and possibly have pull-out for math programs. On the other hand, based on preliminary test scores, they'd be pulling out the whole class. The district average is 68%ile nationally, and the children in this school are from the pool of motivated, knowledgeable parents... so you can imagine that it's already moving at a decent pace. But as a lottery school they have to make sure that every child is accommodated to passing, so if you're already passing... you get the point.

HowlerKarma


Sure, but it's very hard to tell the truly remarkable insights from the usual three and four-year-old "insights" which mainly result from the child's having a lack of context. I once saw on reddit a guy who thought a child's observation, "Why isn't it called an "entrance" when you use it to enter the world?" was ingenious. Could that child be a genius? Yes. Is that kind of "amazing insight" common among three to five-year-olds? Yes. They lack so much context! My older daughter once asked if a shape was the same shape if you turned it upside down. This could be taken either as an incredibly deep philosophical question about the relative nature of spatial relations. It could also be considered a simple vocabulary question, or a really stupid question, depending on how you think about it.


It is just so hard to tell. The term "lackluster" wouldn't apply, but more about high achievement... the justification is very special-needs based (i.e. this is supposedly for children who literally cannot function and would suffer to the point of not succeeding in school, if forced to sit in a regular classroom) but since such children make up a tiny percentage of any population, like one in ten thousand or something, that is not the population in the gifted program. Obviously. Otherwise my kids would not be in there, because it's clear they can function in a normal classroom, even if they find the tasks boring and they aren't challenged.

Our district definitely has a lot of social strivers and I'm probably one of them! We have a lot of parents who go to Asia regularly and frankly, when you see the competition, you tend to feel like your kids are doing nothing at all, and are grade levels behind. I'm not saying I agree with a full-on "tiger-mom" response but I think that exists at every level here. They advertise IQ test prep / COGAT test prep on the after-school program buses that pick up children from school. That is a service that apparently is sought after by some, though the district claims that if they catch you, you will be banned from the gifted program forever (i.e. even in high school AP!).

Since I haven't gotten my own daughter's results yet, it would be hard to ask for special accommodation in observing the classroom.

The school district itself is very into providing each child with an excellent education for their talents and needs and people are very involved and care a lot about the children.


That would be nice! You cannot re-apply. Immersion programs work in such a way that the children need to be in from the beginning in order to attain the necessary fluency to do increasingly complex bilingual work throughout school. There are other lottery opportunities later on, including lotteries for the top schools in the state, even the nation. But it goes without saying that the chances of getting in are low.

The only reason my older daughter can enter immersion in 2nd grade is that it's a very new school. This is her last chance.


Great question.

I thought my kids would enjoy being in the same school, but maybe I should consider more putting only the little one in the immersion school. She is really good at explaining language concepts to the children in her immersion program now.

Bostonian, thank you. I did see that thread. I don't believe that it applies to my question, because I'm aware of the benefits of immersion and that it works for my own children (my first child's transition to a public school in English was nearly seamless) and I am more interested in comparing these benefits to the benefits of a gifted program. I'm not interested in debating the merits of learning a foreign language, because where we live, if you want to be top in your field, whatever that is, you're going to use a language--the only question is when you learn it and how well you do it.

I don't have the same dilemma (immersion vs. gifted) but am also in the process of choosing which school (middle) to accept for DS & DD. Given their age (10), I am giving them the final say but have provided all the pros and cons as well as encouraged them to compile their own pros and cons. Too bad there isn't a crystal ball so we can see where they will be happiest!

Anyhow, you appear to have thought through the issues really well. Based on what you have written, it does seem like your younger DD should go for the immersion. As for your older DD, I do agree that it may not be wise to pass up the immersion given your sense that your older DD may not meet the minimum entrance requirements for the gifted program, however wonderful of a program.

You do seem to know your DDs well so go with your gut. I don't mean to imply that your older DD is not at the 145 level(technically EG?) but I do agree that it may be very difficult to tell without the actual scores. Your examples concur with what I have always observed about some teachers/others' declarations regarding my own children's giftedness - it often seem to me that it depended on your interpretations.

Anyhow, I know your pain. The only comfort I have is to believe that there isn't one right school and that the final decision will somehow work out. Good luck!

Maybe it is unusual but I think it was easier, in some ways, to see my DD's giftedness when she was younger. Unless you specifically ask her about her topics of interest at this point you would not really notice it. It was also obvious to our pediatrician, her pre-school teacher etc... However, when a one year old has a full adult conversation with a stranger it is obvious. I guess the thing that I have noticed and seems to be common across children on this board is not the area of talent as much as the obsessiveness. I did not think of this as a trait of giftedness but am more and more convinced that it is. For instance, at 2 my DD was obsessed with dinosaurs. She knew which dinosaurs lived when and in what order. All of their traits etc and could discuss them in an educated way. So much so that when she struck up a conversation with a stranger when we were on vacation that happened to be a paleontologist at Cornell he volunteered his e-mail (and asked me to e-mail for her) to answer any questions she might have that were not easily answered. She is not interested in dinosaurs any more but has moved on to many more topics and attacks them in the same way. So I guess that is the type of thing I would look for in your daughters. If you have an HG kid and this does not apply chime in, I am by no means an expert. The obsessiveness is just something that I have noticed.

My DD was not obsessive like that. She's maybe the opposite extreme-- she gets a kick out of observing OTHER people interacting with her.

Her "tell" was that she was masterful at manipulating other human beings into completely natural, 'resting state' interactions with her-- within minutes, and without them even realizing it. You could always tell when they realized that they were talking to her the way that they would a close friend that they'd known for years... and this was when she was 3-4yo. She wasn't as 'smooth' then. NOW, most people never notice it. They often remember her as "Oh yeah, that pleasant girl who was so interested in {my passion}."

I think it's her way of extracting the expertise from anyone that she meets-- on ANY topic whatsoever. She figures that everyone has something to teach her, or at least is more interesting when they are talking about what they love, anyway. The only people who truly notice it now are the people that are specialists in human behavior somehow, or those that she allows to see it. Everyone else seems to assume that she is a committed future protege, even if her actual level of interest in the subject is more like "tepid at best." Her "tepid" is more like most people's "avid."



She's voracious and intense, though-- that much is definitely classic PG. I'm not sure that I'd call anything else that she does "obsessive" unless it might be reading. She's a biblioholic of the first order.

@binip: my son went to an immersion school for a while. The school was reasonably open-minded about acceleration and offered him a grade skip after 2nd grade. Starting in first grade, they let him do some advanced stuff, as well. But by grade 2, he was getting pretty bored in school. The new language keeps the boredom at bay for a while, but it doesn't last forever (a couple of years or so in his case).

My questions for you are:

1. What's the gifted program like in your district? Is it a pullout for a few hours a week, or a completely different program that the kids attend all day, every day? Do the kids move through material more quickly? Could they, say, finish two years of math class in one? You said the program is "out of this world," but that doesn't really tell us much.

2. Why do you want to leave the first school? If staying is a possibility, how open is the school to acceleration?

3. Can you get the test scores sooner? It seems reasonable to ask about them as a way of making an informed decision. If they say "NO," my advice would be to just accept the offer at the immersion school and then pull out of it a week later if you want to. If the school system gave her the IQ test and is also making it impossible for you to make an informed choice, it seems to me that you don't really have an obligation to play by the rules. Especially if it's only a few days. Trust me, a few kids will pull out of that immersion program over the summer when a parental unit gets a new job 200 miles away or when Cool Private School X suddenly has an opening. It happens all the time.

To me it always seems a bit like saying to a kid "you run too fast so we will tie your legs together to slow you down" rather than "you run very fast so we will look for people who can also run very fast for you to run against".

@binip may know these answers, or maybe not, but I'm familiar with the gifted program she's considering and it's like this:

Kids are in gifted classrooms all day every day. They're arranged into classes based on their reading scores.

Math: Kids are leveled on the first day of school, placed 1-3 levels up from their grade depending on demonstrated proficiency. They can't move up during the year, but are re-tested every year.

Language arts: The program utilizes specialized curriculum marketed for gifted students, not the standard district stuff. Lots of custom assignments, and expectations are reasonably individualized in this area.

Science: Uses the hands-on kits for the next year up.

Social Studies: Uses the regular curriculum for the same grade, with some extra projects.

Critical thinking is a keystone of the program and they do work hard on critical thinking as a theme across all areas.

It's a reasonable program in most respects.

Thanks! Yes, this is pretty much what I've seen. The main thing that I like is that they challenge the kids more--that's the critical thinking aspect, with higher expectations. They also do a lot of enrichment and link kids to camps, after-school activities, etc. To be honest, the whole district does, but this school in particular is great. The school-wide focus is on literacy and writing this year and you can tell.

It's good because it's so reasonable... almost as if it was designed by someone who knew what they were doing.

Regarding the other posts, thank you! Some answers:


If only my IQ had dropped when I learned my first foreign language, or my second, or if bilingual children around the world were somehow being slowed down by being dumped into English and French immersion international baccalaureate programs by their affluent, multi-lingual parents, I could see this.

For me, immersion education is a window into two worlds. It's like getting to try a triathlon instead of a marathon. Or rather, running a marathon in the mountains rather than on flat land (they say the Seattle, Denver and San Francisco marathons are among the hardest "conventional" marathons in the world... mainly because they are hilly or high altitude).

Runners in Kenya train in the mountains where oxygen is harder to come by and then kick butt in the lowlands. To me, that's what immersion is like.

Not tying their legs together, not at all. Learning a language frees your mind from the constraint of mono-lingualism. Sure that might slow computation time, but it's far more freeing and you learn to compensate.


Oh, middle school, yet more dilemmas! I wish you the best. Do they have to go to the same one?


My older daughter is a perfectionist and does obsess, but only over socially acceptable things. She is emotionally obsessive, not intellectually obsessive, although it does bother her a LOT when she gets an answer wrong at school. So far she has gotten one computation problem wrong (after DST switch, natch) and one explanation wrong (you know the kind... Math Expressions, not a bad curriculum, but sometimes kids who know the concept a little too well can't explain why it is true).

Still, your DD sounds more "gifted" than mine. My little one, well, definitely not verbally gifted (unless you count her sense of humor and knowing two languages, but again keep in mind she didn't teach herself, it was immersion), though both my daughters have been said by their music teacher to be extremely talented. She's really the only one to say anything, though. But then, again, we live in an area where we know a lot of very high performing children.


The school houses part of the district gifted program, so if she does get in, there's no move, and I believe she'll be interested because she likes to be in the top groups. I just thought she'd benefit from immersion, but as this thread goes on, and as I talk to her, the more I think she'd be better off with extra-curriculars and staying where she is.


I can certainly ask, but I believe there is about a -.000000000001% chance of them saying yes.

It says on the website that scores will not be released until a certain date, why they won't be released, and then in bold letters, do not contact the district regarding your child's test scores.

Of course there will be attrition, but they want to prevent extra attrition from strivers who will move from program to program. I think this is reasonable. Their thought is, probably about 10% of these children will be 145+ because it's a special pool of kids: striving, aware parents in a high-income, high-achievement area. So they will lose a ton of kids to that program if they don't ask you to make that decision before accepting. Sure they might lose profoundly gifted little ones...


Oh, ugh. I'm sorry. These are both public schools I'm looking at.

Learning a second (or third or fourth) language is a great thing and learning grammar, reading and writing in a second language will be fascinating to a good percentage of gifted kids.

On the other hand maths and science that are below what you need are as boring in a second language as they were in your first language. Struggling to understand the teacher's explanation (or understanding it well in a second language) is not a substitute for an accelerated and enriched STEM programme.

" Struggling to understand the teacher's explanation (or understanding it well in a second language) is not a substitute for an accelerated and enriched STEM programme."

True, and that's why I started this thread.

I guess I just have to balance the likelihood that she will need to be almost exactly one or two grade levels ahead but not need individualized instruction, with the likelihood that even if she's really bright, she will be able to benefit from enrichment at home regardless of whether she's in immersion, regular classrooms, or a gifted program.

"On the other hand maths and science that are below what you need are as boring in a second language as they were in your first language."

Well, school's boring to most kids and that's a whole other can of worms.

The question of STEM enrichment is a big one, though. My guess is that the immersion school will have a lot of very bright kids and that they'll be able to go very deep and we can supplement that at home. At most it will be more work for me.

On the other hand, in the USA opportunities for native English speakers to learn a world language as children are rare. Families interested in supporting their children's interest to be bilingual/multilingual may find immersion programs to be their only option.

Some may say it is precisely the "struggle" that gifted children crave and thrive on, as it may provide a suitable intellectual "challenge" for them while they are learning to puzzle together the language. Once the language is mastered, they would benefit from appropriate curriculum and pacing.

Yes, all kids may benefit from enrichment at home: support from parents to learn and explore in the child's area(s) of interest.

Spoken with the freshness and anticipation of a parent at the beginning of the journey. Yes, it can become rather bedraggling to keep up with a gifted kiddo.

I believe your planning and careful consideration of the options will be very beneficial.

Howler karma sent you a pm

Well... I am definitely a parent of young children and have a lot to learn, but I was thinking more of the PTSA commitments, which are crazy no matter how average one's child is.

I'm not too worried about keeping up with our kids. Since we do enrichment activities every weekend just for the heck of it, and we're consummate nerds, I don't think they are under-stimulated. They have daily opportunities to do things like make music boxes, write short computer code, write their own plays using playbills from the theater, use one of several musical instruments lying around, or do math worksheets in exchange for breakfast cereals. I write my own phonetic crosswords based on household themes and Bob Books for the little one, which she fills in herself.

This isn't something we had to think up. This stuff is all there because it is hour our homes were when we were growing up. This summer they are going to several art, science, and sport camps and I think they will really like it. It's not because they are smart. It's because *I* think those camps are worth the money, haha, and I'm not going to just save $50/week to stick them in the YMCA. No matter how smart you are, I don't think your brain should be left to rot.

Edited to add: that sounds insulting to the YMCA, which I know strives to create stimulating, enriched programs for every child, and which has a lot of amazing, incredibly bright young employees and volunteers. I didn't mean the YMCA in particular. I just mean that the overall enriched lifestyle I provide, I'd do even if I knew my child had an IQ of 80, or 100, or 115, or 150.

Would you outline the steps in the process or point to a link with the resources, contacts, etc that a kiddo would need to have their research peer-reviewed and published? Thanks!

"Peer-review" is embedded in the publication (and granting/funding) process in STEM.

As apm notes-- it's complicated in some ways and deceptively simple-seeming in others.

This is why my post is only going to offer two distinct steps-- which are going to be the most appropriate for any PG student, just as they are for graduate students who are ready to undertake serious research:


1. Work with a faculty member who is affiliated with a research institution or organization.

2. Be mentored in that setting.

Honestly, even PG kids aren't really in a position to DIY this one; there's too much to the process at the pro-level.

This is part of training in STEM-- being mentored about the way that the system works, that is. It's essential to make sure that you understand how the peer-review process works (or doesn't-- and when there are pitfalls, they may well only be obvious to those with significant savvy about that system within the particular niche/subdiscipline)-- and how to leverage that system to get funding to continue research. It's not really about the publications, so much-- it's about the fact that conducting research in STEM is generally quite an expensive proposition to begin with, and it has to be self-sustaining.