gone

Oh dear. This reminds me of some very painful experiences we had with my eldest at 5-6yrs old. A few times we bumped into a little boy she knew from school (and who we car pooled with sometimes) who was her friend at school (sometimes) but would be quite mean if he met her at a park or swimming pool and was there with other friends. We could not ever make her understand that following him around desperately trying to make him notice her and play with her was only making her more sad and him enjoy being mean even more.

Gently, I would encourage you to not view it as "The friend decided that DD was expendable and cut her loose." They are 5. Most of these kids barely know which shoe goes on which foot. I don't think this child likely really decided anything...she maybe just felt like doing something else that day, or was feeling like playing on the swings and your DD didn't, or...

Anyway, the hard thing is, our kids take this stuff more seriously. My DS is also in K and is very seriously invested in making friends. He's very social and generally quite successful, but this is a big new environment and he is also in the minority racially. He is paying attention to all this social stuff with razor-sharp attention and it's very important to him. We have to talk to him about it not being a big deal if a friend wants to do something else that day, giving it more time, etc. He had a friend last year in pre-K who was a bit of a sticky burr (as in, always wanted to be with him and sometimes he wanted space) so we remind him of that.

To me this sounds like an anxiety issue again. I know you have talked about this being an issue with her.

I'll second ultra on this - I doubt there was serious intent on the part of the other girl either to be your dd's best friend or to ignore her for the rest of the school year. I have two dds who are now several years past kindergarten, both with different personalities - one is extremely social and is friends with everyone, the other is more of a few-close-friends type kid. When they were kindy, the majority of girls we knew (including my dds) were not putting thought and planning into relationships with other kids at school - at recess etc they were falling into play with whoever happened to be doing what they wanted to do that day. My ds, who is EG and 2e, had a tougher time with playground situations had a tough time with recess and didn't have many friends through most of early elementary (he had two close friendships develop in kindergarten but they weren't "close" the way my dds close friendships have been), and as our kids got older, those two friends started branching out and making other friends and my ds seemed to have a tough time navigating what I thought should be typical development re making new friends etc. In hindsight, I started realizing it had less to do with his giftedness and being out-of-sync re intelligence than it was related to his overall anxiety over school - which was related in a huge way to the challenge half of his "2e". Once we were able to get him into a classroom situation where he wasn't constantly under stress and once we were able to get him accommodations so that he wasn't always comparing his inability to others abilities... his anxiety went away and he was able to fit in much easier at recess etc. Now that he's in middle school and not only has a less stressful classroom situation (due to accommodations etc) he also has a much more mature self-awareness which helps him understand and navigate his challenges in a way that works much better than having to rely on parents and teachers to always have to be thinking ahead or putting out brushfires to navigate the world of the challenge part of his "e"... and he's now navigating social situations and making friends the way most neurotypical kids do.

My dd and your ds are, of course, two completely different kids - but as um mentioned, what you describe sounds like anxiety. Eventually you will get to the root cause of the anxiety, and figure out whether or not the anxiety is secondary to some other something in your dd's life or if it's primary - whichever, you'll find a way to lessen the stressors that feed it, and in turn she will hopefully have less struggles with classroom/playground/etc friendships.

FWIW, I think this type of thing is really common in kindergarten, particularly at the start of the school year. My kids' K-1 teachers all did one thing in the classroom that I think helped all the kids - they switched classroom seating around every few weeks, they purposely paired/grouped different sets of kids together on each different project that they did, and they made a point of being inclusive of everyone. That doesn't help directly on the playground when the teacher isn't there organizing play, but over time I felt it really helped our kids' classmates make friends with each other and not just pair off into small sets of friends.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Unfortantely this drama with the girls only gets worse. My DD was fine with kindergarten and all the girls were pretty friendly with each other, but by first grade, the cliques started, or girls started pairing up and being "best friends" and leaving other girls out. Some girls, for whatever reason, are cattier than others and do indeed decide that a certain girl is their friend one day but not the next. For kids who become very attached to their friends, it's very difficult.
My DD has overall been pretty laid back about the situation but started having a really hard time the second half of last year. She always seemed to be upset about somebody or something going on at school. We realized that she was having issues with her ADHD and the medication. When she was on Adderall and Concerta (not at the same time), she became much more moody and hypersensitive about these situations. Now that we have her on a different med she can come home from school and say "J and S didn't want to play with me, but that's Ok, we'll play another day." So much seems to depend on their psychological state in terms of how they can deal (and also maturity--DD is now almost 8).
The guidance counselor and school psych also go into each classroom regularly and do a "Second Steps" program to basically teach kids how to handle their emotions and be good friends to others, and I think that has helped to minimize some of the drama with the girls. I know it is difficult and wish I had some more specific suggestions. I have always advised DD that if someone doesn't want to talk or play with her, to just let it slide and find a different friend who does want to be with her. If the behavior with one particular kid is ongoing (i.e. they never seem to want to be with her), then she needs to question whether they are a friend and worth her time to pursue.

I think DS set up one of the mean boys in his class today. This kid was a part of a group that last year picked on DS.

In front of the kid's grandfather, DS pleasantly said "Good morning "mean kid". How are you today?" The kid just glared. DS continued in what I know to be a very suspiciously sweet voice "I said good morning "mean kid". Are you okay?" The kid continued to glare and at that point his grandfather started scolding him.

As we walked away, DS said "I thought that might happen. He is always rude to me but I don't know why"

Wow! Your posts about your daughter's battle plan to win her friend back made me want to smile then cry myself when it didn't work! I remember several years ago asking my then DS3 (he's six now) about his friend at preschool and hearing his solemn, tiny voice saying, "she's not very interested in my friendship." It was a bit heartbreaking- even with the "they're only three" perspective.
Mine is one who does not "let things roll off his back" so we have had some sadness over hurt feelings. There isn't an easy answer-- my DS6 tends to pick one friend and stay with that person- probably due to nervousness in groups. We're dealing with it by working on his confidence and self- focusing on how he feels about himself and what he can do to grow as a person. Basically, developing the character to "be" a good friend and have authentic interests and values that would attract like minded potential pals. It's a work in progress.
We did go down the road of parent battle plan "how to make friends at school." It was a disaster and quickly abandoned after my son disrupted class several times.

This was the first thing that popped into my head as well.

Both my kids had extreme difficulty at that age - DD with the intense behaviours that you describe and DS with a complete lack of understanding of social cues and difficulties with pragmatic language (he's not on the spectrum - after extensive evaluations we've ruled this out - but I think he's somewhere near it).

In fact, it got to the point, at the end of grade 1 when DS was 6, that I considered homeschooling him for a year so that the other kids could "forget" the damage his quirky behaviours had done. His teacher talked me out of it, saying they were making progress with him and had a plan in place next year.

They are 9 and 10 now, and WHAT a difference. It's to the point where I'm mulling over pulling DS9 from the social skills group he's in because I don't want him missing more class time (I don't think I will - but he's so socially skilled now that I wonder how much more he can learn in the group - maybe he's like a mentor for the newer kids).

Anyway, five was a difficult age for us, but it's gotten so much better

Yeah, the whole fairies, santa claus thing, etc. can cause a lot of problems. In my neighborhood parents actually got furious when a kid told some other kids santa wasn't real (one nasty woman referred to said child as "what a little shit!") And they were equally furious with the parent of said child who revealed the fraud because 'how dare they not conform and cause such trouble!' Made me nervous because I have a sort-of don't lie policy. I was of the mind that if older DS point blank asked if Santa (for example) were real I would tell him the truth but otherwise it was a don't ask don't tell policy. But I also didn't play santa up all that much ( I don't do elf on the shelf or any of the threatening if you're not blindly obedient santa won't come, etc.) Anyway, Ds was okay with santa for about a year but he's smart and naturally questioning and a critical thinker - I guess he was about late three when he skeptically point blank asked me. We had a long talk about it and how he shouldn't tell other kids that believe b/c it's fun for them and their families and it's their culture, etc. I explained how I wanted him to always be able to trust me and that's why I had decided if he asked I would of course not lie to him. My younger DS is more of a believer... I told older DS he is not say anything until the time is right - ie when younger DS asks (which appears will be quite awhile) or some other signs. I am more nervous theat younger DS will not have the same restraint from revealing the fraud as older DS. I try to use Indian people in our community and Jewish people as a model - I talked with them about how they handle "not ruining it" for the kids whose culture is built on this stuff and that was helpful.

Anyway, I feel you... your situation has always been a bit of a fear of mine... Fortunately we've been able to side-step it for now.

I think a gentle reminder to always respect others' beliefs (even if they seem ridiculous to her or are different than what she has been taught at home) is in order. Be it religious beliefs, Santa Claus, or whatever. If another kid asks her if she believes in fairies, or Santa Claus, she can say no. But there is really no reason for her to bring the topic up, or to elaborate on her own beliefs or get into an argument about it. The same social norms apply to adults. Unless I know someone well and they are a good friend, I'm not even going to bring up the topic of religion, for instance.

Agree except for the first sentence. "Respect others' beliefs" is one of those instructions which is often given but which, when you come to think of it, is either highly misleading or very dangerous depending on what you think it's supposed to mean. Therefore I wouldn't use that phrase approvingly to (anyone, but especially) a child. Instead, I'd encourage the same behaviour that blackcat lists under the heading of "be aware that these are topics where some adults like to tell lies to children for reasons that seem good to them, and people may get upset if you try to tell the children the truth". Much easier for your child to understand concretely, and more honest IMHO.

Moomin, I'm just as shocked as your daughter that the lunchroom assistant lied like that. I hope a teacher would have been more adroit at avoiding the lie direct! You might consider making that distinction to your DD, between teachers who are trained to teach children and can be trusted not to lie (though they might avoid answering a question!) and the other people who help look after the children.

"Respect Others Beliefs" means that you don't tell other people that they are wrong or act like they are stupid, even if you strongly disagree. There are situations where debate may be appropriate but 5 year old kids don't know how to debate respectfully and not make the other person feel bad or hostile. Even adults have enough problems with this. So my advice to my kid would be to just keep their mouth shut and let the other kid believe what they want about Santa or fairies or God or Buddha, or whatever. If religion ever enters the conversation and the OP's child tells another child they are "wrong" for X,Y,and Z reasons, I can guarantee all hell is going to break lose, with the child probably being alienated and other parents being very angry. It's bad enough just with the tooth fairy or Santa.

That's beyond the pale. You should insist on an apology and a retraction.

The thing is, Santa really isn't real. I mean the whole story is indeed a fraud as is the tooth fairy and everyone does find this out sooner or later. That isn't the same as a religious belief - santa and tooth fairies are indeed provable fraud. My DS makes this distinction easily and I think it is indeed an important one.

There are a great many things that are provably not real, like [insert favorite conspiracy theory here], but people believe in fervently anyway, and the point is that arguing with such people is, at best, a waste of time, at worst, an invitation to violence. Learning to choose your battles in these situations is an important life skill.

No doubt ... my issue is that the Santa story and the Tooth Fairy (and Easter bunny) are quite simply not the same as "religious beliefs" and beliefs about the spiritual world and afterlife. I am just seconding the suggestion of I simply do not think saying belief in such stories are or the equivalent of religious beliefs.

I think there is some ignorance here. Some people do believe in fairies, in the paranoramal, in the extraterrestrial and I think that if you have any religious belief, you should negate another. There are plenty of people that practice wiccan. For them the whole Celtic, Merlin, thing is very real. And Santa is about giving. Introducing the concept to children. Just like there are diet restrictions in religion because the simple will take better care by eating better if it against the religion than because it is good for them. Though when first instituted the originators never conceived of kosher potato chips or KitKat. And the tooth fairy, how different is that from so many religious rituals of growing up? We did the first communion with DD, not because I believe it is Christ's body, but it is our cultural history for both her father and me.

So whether it is fairies, ghosts, or aliens, there should be respect. It could be someone's religion.

Yes, I have a friend who does indeed believe in fairies. I do not challenge such beliefs ... She certainly, however, doesn't believe in the tooth fairy ( I mean, do we really have to debate that such a story is a lie?) I just think the distinction is important and should not be overlooked... jmo

There is a difference between religious beliefs and tales of Santa Claus. But not necessarily to kids. The parents want them to believe in Santa, much like they want them to believe in Jesus (or reincarnation, or whatever belief). So with kids, I'd just treat it all the same. Respect the other parents' right to teach their kids to believe in fairy tales, and the kids' right to believe it, even though they are obviously folk tales.

Whether parents should "lie" about these things like the tooth fairy or Santa is another debate, but ultimately it's their parenting choice and it should be respected by other parents/kids.

I'm curious how others think the lunchroom attendant should have handled it. I think she was in a tough spot. I mean, "I've seen them" was a bit much.

My DD knows that Santa etc do not exist, but we have definitely talked to her about not talking to other kids about this. I do think this falls into "do not argue with people about their beliefs" category, and in fact is good training for the whole religion minefield.

"I've never seen one, but they could exist. I can't prove it either way" seems pretty balanced to me. Siding against the kid who's crying seems a bit harsh.

I personally would not have taken sides and would have told all girls that while it is okay to have a disagreement, it was time move on to another subject but I agree that it's not always easy to handle every situation and conflict appropriately on the spot.

I know a little girl who was ostracized by her gifted K class for not believing in Santa and her parents weren't treated that much better by other parents during class Christmas party. It's a sticky issue.

ljoy, I agree that that seems fine.

When our eldest asked directly about santa we answered honestly and immediately launched into something like "Lots of children believe for longer than you have, you can't know who believes and who doesn't so don't talk about it. Adults like to make a big deal out of Santa to make Christmas more fun for children, adults fun comes from how magical kids find Christmas (and Santa), you have reached the point where your fun comes from helping making it magical for others." We probably told her she didn't have to lie to anyone that asked directly or who clearly didn't believe either, but absolutely not to raise it at school or to tell her sisters until they figured it out themselves.

I also think Ljoys response was correct. A neutral middle ground response is appropriate, along with "Lets move on from this NOW."

False dichotomy. Belief is belief. They're only different in that the adults who told them these things "know" they're different. From the perspective of the children, however, there is no difference between a belief in fairies and a belief in God. In both cases, they are defending perspectives they "know" to be true.

There are times to argue beliefs and times not to. A five year old can't be expected to differentiate though. Maybe just point out to her that most adults don't believe in fairies or Santa claus so she need not worry about explaining why they are wrong.

I will admit last year my ds4 (then 3) and I got a disapproving comment when he ran up shouting mummy mummy a man dressed up as Santa comed. It never occurred to me a belief in Santa extended to the santa's in shops and visiting kindy.

This is the approach we have taken with Santa and Tooth Fairy. We also use a similar theory when explaining various religious beliefs to my child - we say that there are various people with various religious beliefs and they all choose what the best fit for them is when it comes to religion and spirituality.
We had an awkward moment in Disneyland last Christmas when in the middle of the Christmas parade with throngs of people around, my 5 year old DS yelled to me excitedly: "Look the man in the Santa costume is here and the reindeer are all men in reindeer suits too because they are walking on 2 legs!". And we had a similar moment in the "Meet Mickey" event earlier in the day too. I quickly hushed my son on both occasions but I could see that many people were smiling at what my son said while there were many disapproving frowns too.

While some adults may choose to tell children things that aren't true, it is totally unfair to expect other children to play along with the pretense.

Regardless of the children's awareness of the underlying truth of the beliefs, the importance of the belief in question should, IMO, be factored into how the discussion is treated.

I would not want my child's teacher to treat belief in the divine as if it were on the same level as belief in fictional fairy stories. Even if the teacher believes that my religion is tantamount to fiction, the importance other religious belief/non-belief is assigned in the reasonable person's life should afford it greater respect than a difference of opinion on other matters, like the existence of fictional creatures.

I would have wanted the teacher to acknowledge that fairies are imaginary creatures, but that it is perfectly acceptable to engage in pretend play that they're real. For a difference in religious opinion in a multi-faith environment, I think along the lines of blackcat. In a single-faith school, I'd want a message consistent with the beliefs of the religion.

Agreed.

I'm surprised at the people who can't seem to understand the difference between an adult telling a child something the adult *actually believes* to be true vs. an adult telling a child something the adult KNOWS to be false. That there are some adults in this world who actually believe fairies exist is beside the point.

I agree.

What a horrible experience for a child!

Again, I think this is totally patronizing. How are your beliefs in the divine any different from another's beliefs in fairies. Ask any athiest? To them your beliefs are no different. And they have history that shows how the bible was changed to suit the political strategies of the times. Fairies have been unchanged since the time of Merlin I think...

I suspect Disney etc changed fairies a bit. The ones in old stories seemed a little darker.

Anyway the adult probably didn't handle it very well but the issue is your daughter's school experience which probably won't be helped by trying to convince the adult that they should have handled it differently.

Having worked with groups of children, I can also imagine that this staff member went home and slapped herself repeatedly on the forehead, wishing she had handled it differently.

It *was* the sort of conversation that it would be hard to be prepared for.

DeeDee

Great. We can agree to disagree, both here and in future posts, Wren.

I really don't know what I said that was insulting. There is a museum based on creationism. They show humans using dinosaurs as domesticated animals. TX wants creationism instead of evolution taught. There are all kinds of religious beliefs. I have my own religious beliefs and respect others who believe something else. Looking at physical theories of time and space, (did you watch the Brian Greene series) it looks like there are multiple dimensions and time is really just a concept like physical bodies. Maybe the fairies are in a different dimension. And I am not joking. Who knows for sure.

Wren - My son went to that museum! OMG. The husband and I about died laughing while he was explaining humans & dinosaurs living together. (He was taken by a family member that is full-on creationism). He's beginning to learn about skepticism, finally!

I think the point Wren is trying to make is that there is an argument to be made that a public school teacher expressing belief or nonbelief in fairies is just as appropriate or inappropriate as a teacher expressing belief or nonbelief in God. This is why "Hmm...I don't know...I can't prove it either way" is best. I can certainly see that it seems more rational to be careful about mainstream religious belief than belief in fairies...but in fact, from a truly fair POV, why? I also know people who believe in fairies, by the way. Really!

I'll point out that to a child, this all sounds equally fantastical and odd. My unchurched child went to Catholic preschool last year and was utterly mystified by some of what went on there, referring to the "cups of other people's blood" he encountered with a bit of anxiety.

The larger point I was trying to make is that it can be just as unprofitable to argue about fairies or religion as it can be to argue "9/11 was/was not an inside job," or, "Lee Harvey Oswald did/did not act alone." Sometimes we consult the data to inform our beliefs, and sometimes we consult our beliefs to inform the data.

Yes, and I also agree with that point. Although 5 is pretty early for this, we do talk to our kids about how people have different beliefs about such matters and feel passionately about them, etc., and arguing about them, even if you're very sure you're right, isn't likely to get you anywhere. It helps that my own DD DID used to believe in fairies. Of course, this gets sticky when you get into matters like evolution, whether or not my child is going to hell...sigh.

There is a difference between random theoretical imagination-driven gibberish and actual lived experience.

Meaning the difference between the idea that a stork delivers babies and a woman describing the lived experience of conception and childbirth.

Well, with respect to fairies (or, for that matter, any kind of ecstatic spiritual experience)...


er-- nevermind.


I hardly think that public school is a proper setting for a discussion of hallucinogens. {ahem}

Come to that, extreme pain (as in childbirth) can induce them, too.