DS took MAP test recently. He is in first grade. Scores at the 75th percentile for third grade and 50th for fourth. Does 75th count as mastery? Which grade should we try to accelerate to?

MON, fantastic response! The school is allowing DS to test drive forth grade right now. DS is very happy and loves being with them. The school is concerned about the gaps that he has and that he has stumbled in fourth grade. We are trying to educate them about how quickly he will master the gaps, but they don't quite get it.

MoN is absolutely right.

We basically just go with our gut and do what feels most tolerable. We never wanted DD to be operating below about the 75th percentile, though-- that felt unhealthy. So we've tried to walk the line between extracurriculars that range from 70th to about 99th percentile (with acceleration in place) and academics that are (ideally) about the 95th percentile.

The unfortunate reality is that most of the time, DD jumps back into the 99th percentile within a year or so from that 85th-95th immediately after acceleration.

Often you don't really get to choose a "best" fit, but one that minimizes problems-- or more likely, selects for particular problems and minimizes others.

Which problems are preferable is highly individual and depends on the child and the family.

My long way of saying... I'm not sure that anyone ever really knows where to accelerate to. Not really. You just try things and see if it works and feels okay.

So DS just told me, "I don't want to goto fifth grade next year because fourth grade is a little too hard right now." So I questioned him a bit. He says he loves the class, but it's only a little hard. He thinks it should be easy for him. So my mother guilt is coming out now...thinking I am pushing him too much to send him three grades up. But he is so happy with them. More importantly, it concerns me that he ALREADY thinks that school should be easy. What do I do?

I think you're right to be concerned about his idea that it should be easy. If the class is "a little bit hard" and he's happy, that sounds good. The key thing is that he's happy and challenged. Don't feel bad if he's happy

I would be reluctant to skip more than two grades in one hit personally. I sometimes wish we had skipped two instead of just one when when had the chance. But three grades sounds too much for me in one hit, it's all the other stuff that goes with the academics that you won't know about until he's been there a good while. The difference in executive function requirements is huge between 1st and 5th.

It's just for math. 45 mins a day

Oh, right, sorry that changes my thinking entirely.

Mastery is 95th percentile.

When I look at the curriculum (everyday math), I just don't see how I can put him in 4th grade math next year. There is very little that he doesn't know. Yes, there are a few things. And yes, he is still slow with his facts. But those are the only things in the way. When I look at the 5th grade curriculum, I see that they review 4th grade for the first few units. Shouldn't that be enough for him? Do we need to hire a tutor? I'd love to hear from anyone else who has done a radical subject acceleration.

not radical subject acceleration but my son is ahead one year in math (but he did 3rd grade math in the 2nd grade classroom, plan is to go to 4th grade classroom for math while in the 3rd grade).

One thing I did was computerized worked on facts. He had free access to Timez Attack (by big brainz) and I paid for Aleks.com which he worked on 3rd grade curriculum in the main part of the site but he also did their Quick Tables (their program for teaching and assessing the four different tables). He has finished addition and multiplication and will finish division (half done with it) and subtraction over the summer.

Personally, I'd pull him out of math at school and homeschool him with a rigorous program--Singapore, EPGY, whatever.

I would love to homeschool him, but he is super social. He loves being with other kids. I'm just thinking now, though, that we can try homeschooling math this summer, see if he likes it and than maybe just homeschool math next year. Has anyone done that? How does that work...like when they do math at school, does he just sit out?

It doesn't sound like he's a good candidate for fourth grade math next year, unless he does a lot of work over the summer. Then again, it doesn't make sense to cram over the summer to make a stretch.

I think it could make sense to after- or homeschool him for math, perhaps starting with third grade curriculum compacting (i.e. pretesting and letting him skip sections where he demonstrates already-achieved mastery). If you do this, I'd ask permission to send written work to school for him to do during math period, so his time isn't wasted. DS7 has shown the ability to happily learn math many times faster than normal this way, with approximately a half hour of home instruction per week, the rest self-paced work during math period at school.

Does he show above-average aptitude in other areas?

???

Confused by this-- do you mean that only the top 5% of a class is considered to have "mastered" the curriculum?

Just in general?

Or did you mean that an average assessment of 95% in terms of the curriculum expectations is considered "mastery"?

I was always under the impression that those were very different constructs. Pedagogically, a teacher aims for 95% mastery over the course of instruction with a class of students. Mastery being defined differently for different purposes, but in my own classes, "mastery" was a passing overall grade at the end of the marking period. 70% or higher. Now, personally, I tend to think that this is stretching the truth a bit and that true mastery is more like 85-90% (B-A range and up) competence with the material being evaluated. But that's just me.

In any event, if a person has truly got "mastery" then there seems little point in having him/her be "instructed" further in that material.

I do agree with the idea to get away from EveryDay Math, if possible. It's nasty, that curriculum.

I'd start looking at just HOW easy the rest of school is, that he has this particular idea already.

This is NOT a good thing for kids to experience long-term. BTDT, got that tee shirt.

The best case scenario there is that your child believes that s/he "struggles with" and "has no aptitude for" his/her weakest academic area.

For example-- my DD is probably going to top 750 in writing on the SAT. She thinks that she is "below average" in her writing ability. Because it is the ONLY area where instructional level has met her in her proximal zone year after year. Everything else mostly is well beneath her actual readiness level, to the point that she doesn't need to really work to learn any of it. What little she doesn't already know, I mean.

So I'd be looking at more than math, if he's got that as a global expectation.

Everything but writing is super easy for him. Two psychologists that we have consulted with have suggested a double grade skip. We are opposed to that. He is young and just not ready. He is not miserable in school and we think it's ok to have some time to chill out. Math is the area that gets him nuts if he is not challenged. I guess I am revealing my preconceived idea that fourth grade math should be easy for him too! I would say that currently, he scores between 80-100 on the assessments that he does. (he had one 65). So my question is how much of a stretch is good? When I hear that he doesn't know the material and it takes him a few minutes to learn it, I think it's great. The teacher on the other hand thinks it's not a good fit.

I forgot to add, he is only going to fourth grade math once a week now. The rest of the week he is with first grade math and gets no other fourth grade math instruction. And yes, he does first grade hw and first grade tests.

95th percentile in the context of a nationally normed standardized test.

I am also looking at grade skipping my DS6 (currently year 1). He has been seeing a tutor for English and maths, as his teacher is only giving him maths extension. The assessments the tutor gave my son show he is two years ahead for English (year 3), and at least that for maths (50% mastery of year 4). He is excelling in both subjects with nearly 100% on all tests.

I would like to read more about your experiences of a two year grade skip. One thing I thought about with my son, is that a one year skip will provide a bit more learning wise, while keeping him at the top of the class. Also, his high school I plan to send him consolidates the three final years into two- giving another grade skip. He is very mature and has no 2e issues.

MON, he literally gets 45 mins of fourth grade math a week. During first grade math, he does what the class is doing. He doesn't take fourth grade tests. He gets one hw assignment a week. Math is an extremely fun passion for him. Science too. When he says it's a littlehard he means, "I've never seen that before." What the teacher sees is he doesn't know what a line segment is, therefore he isn't ready. We showed him what a line segment is. Now he knows it. The other issue for him is he is slow with computation. He is completely self motivated to spend 15 mins a day working on speeding.up his times tables. The plan to send him once a week to fourth grade was done to throw us a bone since we've been complaining that DS doesn't want to go to school anymore. There is a scheduling conflict for the other days of the week. Also, they were super concerned about his ability to fit in socially. The teacher says that he fits in beautifully. I am thinking now, that he's still got 6 weeks of school left. If he actually spent 5 days a week doing fourth grade math, he would be completely caught up by the end of the year. Does anyone else think that I should push for that? The school will not like pulling him out of first grade math while we send a tutor, but what other choice do we have? Finally, the actual problem here is that no one in the school has any gifted training or experience. They have never encountered a kid like this and have no idea what they are doing.

YES. We have not pushed DS to the highest level of math he could accomplish, but have placed him enough ahead (2 yrs) that he's learning some as well as a place where the work is not overwhelming in quantity, and where the age and maturity gap with peers is conspicuous but not shocking.

I do not particularly want him in the high school building before he's more ready to handle the executive function things (remembering to turn in the HW...remembering to write down the HW... not leaving his musical instrument in the hall for a day or two...) that come with being there. For DS, a 2-year grade accel. in math is not perfect but has been an okay compromise.

Totally agree with MON: your DS should get full inclusion in instruction at whatever grade level you decide to put him in. One day a week makes him not fit anywhere and not be a part of any class. He should simply be a member of the class he's accelerated to, with all the same responsibilities.

DeeDee

Three years up is not at his highest level. I would say 4-5 years would be his max level. Really the only thing slowing him down is the computation.

Eastcoast, I don't even know where my DS10's highest level would be. He went up through ALEKS High School Geometry as a young-for-grade 4th grader. (I called a halt at Algebra II because there was simply no sense in letting him go on at that age; I diverted his "running ahead" into science, which then has caused further placement issues.)

The minute you find the "highest level" on a kid like this, s/he whooshes past it anyhow. I have chosen not to homeschool my DS-- our particular kid needs peers in his areas of interest-- but there is no place to put him in a classroom for absolutely optimal pace and content.

My aim has been more modest: find a class where DS can be happy to be there, engaged in on-topic conversation with the other kids, and learning some. Teacher match has been absolutely key in this-- having a teacher who understands how interested he is in this material-- and having some peers who are also excited about learning is also important.

DeeDee

Dee Dee, I feel like our goals are modest too. His teachers (except for one specials teacher) don't get it at all. They keep trying to slow him down and it is becoming more frustrating for him. His current class has a lot of below grade level learners. There is maybe one other kid who is above grade level. He is out there, a total outlier. I think the teachers are honestly glad that DS is one less kid who needs remediation, so they do nothing. I mean NOTHING for him. One comment I got from a teacher, "aren't you glad he's not struggling like so many others? He can just relax." (That's the old "aren't you glad I'm not on drugs" speech I use to give to my mother.)

Thank you for the clarification. That makes sense in terms of acceleration considerations-- though on the other hand, for an administrator to use that as a measure of mastery in a class/teaching context would be inherently flawed since it would indicate that most students do not attain concept mastery.

Which, come to think of it, may be just fine if it's EveryDay Math we're discussing.

Well, that's.... just... weird.

Why would he be doing math at TWO levels??

What is the pedagogical logic behind that?

FWIW, I agree with MoN and Deedee about not pushing to the maximum extent possible for your child.

You do need to make it tolerable, though-- and it sounds to me like that is what you are attempting. No, the 65 wouldn't bother me in light of his other performance, though I'd want to remediate that at home to make sure that he understands those concepts better than the grade would indicate. My DD got a 42 once on a math test. Ai yi yi... she knew the material perfectly well. She just didn't bother exerting herself for the test, being six. LOL.

Full time instruction at his 'readiness' level (that is, not at his "maximum potential" level) is what he needs. How to go about getting that, though...

That's great, MON, that your daughter's school supports skipping two grades! I am envious

I also agree with MON about deciding based on your child's interests. I wouldn't bother with the tutoring if my son wasn't interested. He had been begging his teacher for months for harder work, so I chose tutoring to make do until his grade skip next January (Australia's first term).

I highly recommend tutoring. My son is a high achiever and to not be challenged has been hard for him. His tutor is teaching him the state's curriculum, plus there is free time to learn anything he wants. The difference in my son is amazing: he is so much happier and confident in his school life, knowing he can just enjoy school and learn with the tutor.

Plus, you get to see how far your child can go with their learning without the limits of the class year's curriculum.

Honestly, I think most students don't master grade level material (at least in math), and I think the highest level of mastery for average adults is prealgebra (and that may be pushing it).

If you are only doing one day a week and everyone else is doing 4 or 5 AND you haven't done several years of maths that they have - it would seem reasonable that you would find it a little hard.

Are they setting him up to fail?

Great question. I think they think they know what they are doing. They have no clue. But this has actually been a gift. Given that DS hasn't had those years of instruction and he only attends class 20% of the time, he is still doing well. I am actually glad that they set it up this way. We'll see if THEY can recognize this. I am already doubtful. I talked to DS again and he is certain that he wants to stay with them and is now pissed that the school is asking him to continue with first grade. We have two such over the top psych reports to send to the school now. They would be complete idiots if they didn't recognize what is needed as written in the reports.

Yesterday, DS7 forgot to bring home his math worksheet. But he wanted to work on a math worksheet. So, we found some free worksheets online and flipping through topics and he wanted 6th grade statistics. So, I print a sheet out with questions on mean, mode, and median and some "find the mean" problems.

OK, so mild surprise to me, he knows the terms and knows how he is supposed to calculate mean. But he has some problems wrong from misreading to mistranslating (thinking the problem had 5 rather than 4 items, etc.)

So, that is one of the acceleration problems. Mean, median, mode are math terms and calculating averages, not bad. Really, hardly more knowledge in most of K-5 math than rules in a game like Monopoly. But, there are a lot of secondary skills, heuristics, sanity checks, etc. that are supposed to develop through practice, play, and exposure to various problems and such.

From above, in each of DS's mistakes the mean value was outside the bounds. I pointed this out and we talked about sanity checks and rereading problems. So, they can accelerate as fast as they can, but school and online videos are rarely going to offer the direct metacognitive support for the secondary skills they did not give themselves time to develop.

Curriculum focused standardized tests are more often going to focus on the direct testing of specific element knowledge and application. They can become poor indicators of actual mastery that would include the full range of secondary skills.

You have to be very careful. We decided on no acceleration. Well kind of no acceleration. Declining acceleration is unusual in this group I know.

My son in 1st grade went to 2nd grade math and reading. In 2nd grade he went up to 4th grade math and reading and also joined in the 4th grade book club. In 3rd grade on to 5th. He then had maxed out what this school had to offer. He is now in 4th grade same school. He is doing AoPS pre algebra at home and has a tutor once a week. He has participated in several Saturday classed at the local universities. He has participated in 2 different math competitions that are entry math counts. MAP Reading and Language scores went up over 10 points this spring. Math MAP went up 16 points.

I guess in a nut shell I am saying, I have no idea what to do with these kids but he is still growing like a weed in every way.

There is a local private school that adopts the same philosophy as AoPS.
We are entertaining the idea of sending him there. It goes through 8th grade.
The downside is the price tag.

that is our story minus a book or two.

The presenting issue for us was that DS who used to LOVE SCHOOL started to ask to stay home. After a while, we thought.that something was up. Sure, he had this high scores, but we actually weren't very educated about school refusal and profoundly gifted children. Then all sorts of other academic acting out started. We got him tested andevaluated and it all started to make sense. When he was given higher level work, he stopped complaining about school when he started to attend the fourth grade math class once a week, he started skipping to school. So at this point, honestly, I don't really care about the gaps anymore (if in fact there are any). It's where he needs to be now. If he spends all of next year being a B student, I would be thrilled with that. If he has two months of working hard to make up gaps - fantastic. Because I NOW know that in another year or two we will be right back in the same situation.

WOW. Thank you, ZenScanner, for that. THAT. That is what I have been trying to put my finger on with mathematics instruction and what distresses my DH and I about the way her school is tending to do things.

This is a real problem with flipped classroom methodology in practice, too-- it neglects the same heuristic factors. I do think that the only way that most students-- even PG students-- pick those things up is by NEEDING them, or seeing someone else apply them in real time.

There's no teachable moment quite like "Wait-- WHA?? Why did you just do that??"