I have posted about my son's behavior problem at school not too long ago . He's in 2nd grade , 8 years old .

So , the school started doing a private behavior chart with him , since punishment and negative consequences isn't working with him . They started working on positive rewards .

The way it works , DS has to collect 17 initials out of 24 to meet his goal . It is for :

- Talking in appropriate time
- Be respectful with adults and peers
- Finishing work in timely manner
- Use time and materials wisely

Each for : Power up time , math , language and arts , specials ( music , art , pe , computer ) , science , lunch / recess .

So far he's doing better with this behavior chart . He met his goals , sometimes he even gets almost perfect day , some other days just met his goal . So overall it's not too bad .

Now , my problem is ..

During lunch , the school has last 5 minute silent lunch . You're not allowed to talk or whisper or anything , just put your head down and don't talk . And if they see you talk or whisper or anything , then you get consequences . The consequences is losing recess the next day . Because their recess is before lunch time . Their purpose for 5 minutes silent lunch is so that whoever needs to finish , can finish their lunch still .

I really don't think it is fair at all . Especially with DS' problem with behavior , and now that he's been doing better with it and met his goals , etc . He had his recess taken away even if he had a great day . Why ? because he got caught talking or whispering during the last 5 minute silent lunch .

This is very upsetting for me , it feels like it defeats the purpose of giving him a positive rewards . I am afraid his behavior will be spiraling down the drain again because he'll think " i had a good day but my recess got taken away .. so what's the point earning 17 or more signatures anyway ? "

Don't they know these kids need to let their energy out , they sit all day , they can't talk all day , and lunch and recess are the only time they can socialize with their friends !!

Am i overreacting about this ? please let me know if i am . My husband was not happy about this at all , yesterday he emailed the school , but the school's reply was nothing that we already knew .. " we allow our students to talk except for the last 5 minutes "

I mean , these kids are so wound up with talking , chit chatting for 25 minutes and then they expect them just to shut up and be quiet just like that ? And punishing them by taking away next day recess for it ?

Uh no - you are not over-reacting. That is horrendous. I have read that schools particularly in the south do stuff like this and I have read that it is a very bad practice and very bad for kids. I don't where you are but you have my deepest sympathies -it truly honestly sounds a really poorly run school.

This is pretty much standard practice in my kids' school.

However, the taking recess away is also illegal.

So, you might want to check the laws of your state.

We have been dealing with this kind of thing all year and it is so upsetting to my daughter and to myself as her parent. Taking away recess should be the absolute last resort reserved for horrible infractions, IMO. Kids need to play and burn off energy. My DD has come home crying several times each month over losing recess primarily because the entire class got punished for talking too much. I spoke to the classroom teacher about it, and she refused to believe me that DD could possibly be so upset over something so insignificant as recess. I feel your pain.

Oh, I feel your pain. Obviously, the problem here is, WHY ARE THEY ONLY GETTING 30 MINUTES FOR LUNCH??!!

Don't count on those kids getting 25 minutes to chit-chat, either. In my DD's school, the first ten minutes of lunch was getting the kids to line up and be quiet, march to the lunch room, stand in line again for lunch (even for kids who brought their lunches), and then sitting in assigned seats, which weren't necessarily next to their friends (definitely not, in DD's case). DD regularly came home with her lunch half-eaten, because there was too much time taken up by teacher tomfoolery.

In my day, lunch and recess were not separate things. You ate your lunch, then you got up and went to play. The reason this worked was because many grades used the lunch room and playground together, 1-3 for one period, 4-6 for the next (K had their own area). DD's school was only allowing one grade at a time in the lunch room, and in the playground. What this is supposed to accomplish, I have no idea.

Oh, and DD kept losing her recess because other kids couldn't line up and be quiet. This taught her to hate her so-called peers.

Anyway, I share your outrage. And I don't see any amount of advocacy changing this, because it's a school-wide problem, not an individual one. It would pretty much take a groundswell of complaints from parents to get this changed.

You're right , we're in the southern state . We live in Texas , we just moved here a year ago from midwest area . And me and DH were shocked when we heard about " silent lunch " even if it's 5 minutes silent lunch then losing next day recess as the consequences .

Oh and also this ..

Walking backwards , twirling a book during car line , spinning ruler after doing your job , these are all reasons for them to " move his clip "

These teachers really need to start worrying about educating our children instead of worrying about little things like that !! So so mad ..

I took DS to therapist just last week ( due to his behavior at school), first time therapist saw the communication cards , immediately she said " His teacher DOES NOT like him at all .. look all these reports .. she's nitpicking everything he does . It is obvious she doesn't like him "

I just tell my kids that the teacher and school staff can simply be ignored.

It's not like I care what they think.

It is so ridiculous to have a silent lunch . I just don't understand , they expect these kids to be quiet during lunch . And then when they take away recess , don't they think they'll be more rebellious because they don't get time to let those energy out ?

So mad .. i am thinking about emailing all parents and see what we can do about this .

Esp. for DS case though .. he's been working hard to improve his behavior , we even go to a pyschiatrist and then therapist , both professional said " nothing wrong with your son , he's bored , he needs to be challenged , and his teacher hates him "
( the school wanted to have him evaluated by the school's therapist who's specialised in autistic children , but we chose to have our own therapist evaluated him )

Anyway it's so upsetting because he's been working on improving his behavior and even on a good day , his recess got taken away because he said " cool " to his friend during silent lunch . Oh i am so mad !!!!

I went to catholic school when i was young ,but i never had any silent lunch time !!! If i didn't finish well then i didn't , and that means i'd be hungry and my mom wouldn't be too happy with me . Are we trying to raise a robot or something ?

It reminds me of a Pink Floyd song ' Another brick in the wall ' That's how i feel about our education systems here in US !!!

The school year is almost over.

Don't you get a new teacher next year?

I would have an issue with this also! So they are saying kids can't eat while other kids are talking - oh, yes this makes total sense (she says sarcastically).

Our school takes recess away also as consequence. What does not getting recess look like? For us it means the kids have to walk around the playground the entire time. By doing this the kids still get exercise so school is off the hook legally.

OTOH - a 30 min. lunch would be great! Our daughters get a 25 minute lunch and that is from the classroom, down the long hallway, into the serving lines, filling your tray and eating, so more like 15-20 minutes depending on where you are in the line.

Texas can be the land of crazy... but I've also found nearly everyone very helpful and accommodating in a one on one setting.

I would pop into the office and have a chat with the Principal or Vice Principal about your son constantly having a problem with this "silent 5mins" thing and see if he can possibly do something else - be excused to the office for that time period, or have a JOB like helping to pick up or SOMETHING.

We had a similar problem last year where DS was constantly getting into trouble at the same time every day (dismissal) so they started having him leave class a few minutes early and letting him hang out in the front office or the counselor's office during dismissal, then he'd go to his after school program. Everyone was very happy to help him out and it solved our problem.

Good luck! I vote just go talk to them and go in with the attitude that OF COURSE they want to help him!

Oh gosh .. i would absolutely hope so !! It's been a nightmare for all of us !

Well , 30 minutes actually is that .. walking from playground into the lunch room , line up to get their lunch and sit to start eating . So you're right it's not actually 30 mins or 25 mins either .

For DS , no recess meaning , they sit by the wall watching everyone playing on the playground . Usually there are average 10 kids doing this everyday according to DS . So they'll be sitting by the wall not doing anything !

I don't mind taking away recess if it's because something very bad . But seriously for talking during lunch .. and they give these poor kids no recess as a punishment ? I'd rather have them run 5 or 10 laps if they talk during lunch !! At least that way they get their energy out . They used to do this , but now they change to no recess next day .

Great idea , actually we've been requesting for a conference with the principal and teacher too , no reply yet for that . But i will def. bring this up , that's a great idea . Thanks !

Not only do I not agree with this consequence in general and definitely knowing the kids have to sit out all recess, but I really don't like the idea of receiving the punishment the next day either, especially for a child like your DS that is working on behaviors. He could be having a really good day, but because of something that happened the day prior he has to sit during recess. I think this is going to set him up to fail.

I agree that you need to talk to someone and nicely and calmly explain the reasons why this may not be helpful to what they are trying to accomplish with the behavior chart.

You might like this series of links from WrightsLaw, including an AAP policy position stating the vital importance of recess. Please note that it's written with an ADHD audience in mind, but I think it pertains to all children equally.

http://www.wrightslaw.com/blog/?p=5338

The school needs to return to first principles and ask itself if it's truly fulfilling its mandate by endorsing policies that run counter to expert advice. This isn't a prison system for diminutive inmates, it's a place of learning, personal growth, self-expression, and creative thought. A policy of silence and withholding recess seems draconian and undermines the spirit of education.

Also, how is the policy expected to support the goal of teaching healthy living habits? Eat hurriedly, wrap up before you're physically capable of sensing satiety and then rest in a docile, semi-comatose state, or else your only physical and social outlet will be cut off. That's a recipe for creating a generation of maladjusted, basement-dwelling, obese teenagers. There's nothing like evidence-based practice, is there?

Excuse my sardonic tone. I clearly don't think your ire is misplaced.

I don't think asking them to have 5 minutes of quiet is unreasonable. I don't think you're overreacting about him missing recess. No kid should miss recess.

There is no way DS would be able to stay quiet for 5 minutes during something as social as lunch. Heck, he can NEVER stay quiet for 5 minutes unless he's engaged! Eating and waiting on the others to finish CALLS for talking. Not for quiet! It's just horrible!

OK, so I read this through quickly and maybe didn't catch everything correctly, but this is my take on it. You have two different situations going on here that you're concerned with: 1) inappropriate consequence for your ds, and 2) concerns about lunch policy. I'd stick with dealing with your ds' consequence situation first and then once you've resolved that (hopefully!) move on to worry about the lunchroom situation in general - if it's a battle you really are passionate about and want to take up.

Re the consequences - I think the whole situation is not the way I'd want behavior challenges managed - it sounds like your ds is under a microscope. That said, the immediate thing I'd deal with is the idea of taking away the next day's recess for behavior issues the day before. That is a consequence that simply isn't going to work on two huge levels: delay of consequence and removing recess. I would voice those concerns to the school staff without bringing up any judgments about the way lunch is handled.

Re lunch - if I read correctly, recess is before lunch, then there is a set time period for lunch, and the *last* five minutes of lunch is when the students are supposed to be quiet. This is being done so that the kids who still haven't eaten their lunches finish them. I agree it's not a *great* policy but it's also not something I'd fight. The students *are* getting recess and they do have a certain amount of time to talk and eat at the same time. It's not as much time as kids would have in an ideal world, but all throughout school my kids have never had a lunch period longer than 20 minutes - I think it's simply due to how we in the US schedule our school days. This has been brought up as an issue in our school district several times, and each time the district has responded that it's impossible to lengthen the school day simply to extend the lunch hour. I don't remember the exact reasons, but I"m sure it all ties in to $, as well as possibly running into difficulties with bus schedules, after-school activities etc. Re the five minutes of silent lunch at the end - it's not what I'd do if I was in charge, but I also think that it's addressing an issue that is important - I've sat through I don't know how many lunchroom lunches with my kids in early elementary, and so many of the kids talk so much and get excited about whatever is coming next that they don't finish their lunches. When my kids used to do that, they would be *starving* at the end of the school day when I picked them up. Eating was low priority for them during lunch when they could instead be having fun chatting with their friends - but *after* lunch they still had a full afternoon of school where they needed to be able to focus and concentrate on their work, not be distracted by being hungry. So jmo, but 5 minutes of quiet time to make sure students finish their lunch is a very different thing than saying "no talking during lunch ever". I also don't know what's happening in the classroom at this school after lunch, but in our schools lunch/recess are always followed by a quiet reading time, because it does seem to help the kids calm down from their active time and allow them to refocus and be ready to do classwork again. Hence I don't think the lunch quiet time is something I'd worry too much about.

Again, I may have misunderstood how lunch works and if so, ignore my comments!

Best wishes,

polarbear

My thoughts exactly - agree, agree!!

While it is true , 5 minutes silent during lunch , is not a big deal . But i think 5 minutes for kids , esp. with friends around , this would be a big challenge for them . Esp. for my DS , he LOVES talking . In fact he loves talking so much he gets in trouble because of talking ALL the time . In the classroom , he always gets his jobs done , but after that he always wants to talk . He even got detention because of talking !

I really don't mind the 5 minute silent lunch , as long as the consequences suit the crime . I just don't see it's fair having the recess taken away for talking during that 5 minutes of silent lunch . He could have run 5 laps for the consequences , or something where he still able to let out his energy .

And plus with the background that he's working on improving his behavior , this just sets him up for a failure . Why ? Because he's going to have his recess taken away anyway .

In fact what makes the school thinks taking away DS' recess will work ? He even had 2 detentions because of talking and he's still talk .. will taking away recess work ? Obviously no .. why couldn't they see it !! We've talked about this , that punishments aren't working for DS .

It really upsets me , this morning he was about to bring his 2 small dinosaurs to school for recess and i said .. are you sure you can play with that ?

He said " yes during recess only "
Then quiet for few seconds and then he said " Oh nevermind , i probably not having recess today because i whispered something to my friend during silent lunch "

I almost cried because , he's been working so hard , and i keep telling him he's a good boy , but the school keeps doing things like this and putting him under a microscope to the point where i feel like he's already being labelled as a trouble maker ! Wherever he is whatever he does .. he thinks it's always going to get him in trouble .

Totally agree , this is why it was so upsetting for me .

Good luck. They have recess directly before they eat? Or recess, then school, then lunch? It is funny but until I started reading these and other forums I just assumed that all kids had an hour for lunch.

I find this silent lunch thing....really bizarre.

At my son's school (in Oz), they have a five minute fruit snack, then 20 minutes for recess and play, then 35 minutes for lunch and play. During recess and lunch they have to eat before they can play, so if they talk they may miss out on the fun. To force a child to not be able to talk sounds like torture!

Recess directly before they eat lunch . So they have their recess then they'll march to the lunch room and start lining up to get their food .

Recess at 12.30 until 1 , then at 1 they will march to their lunch room , they have to be finished by 1.30 , that's when they have to go back to their class for math then science .

It is a little odd , we never found it up north either , we just moved to this southern state a year ago and we heard about 5-10 minutes silent lunch was odd too .

The problem with me is , i think the punishment doesn't suit the crime . Because when you talk during that 5 minutes silent lunch , the punishment is losing whole recess next day which is 30 minutes . And i thought this punishment is really ridiculous . Now if you fight with other students then you lose recess , now that punishment suits the crime . I just don't understand it . I am requesting a meeting with the principal , but i haven't got any reply for it yet .

Our kids get only 15 min to eat, but they at their desks. So they just get up, go to their back packs, get their lunch & sit back down again. Between that and snack time in the morning it seems fine (except for DD10 who nibbles like a mouse - arrgh). After their 15 min eating time, they go outside for 30 min to play.

Jaylivg that 5 min silent lunch thing is ludicrous. Does your son have an IEP? Could there be something added to it to cancel this out for him? (Forgive me if this has been mentioned already - I haven't read the whole thread yet).

Oh my GOSH ...do these same rules apply to the other kids?

That's awful. Seriously.

My DS8 (gr 3), on the other hand, fidgets, stands up, spins beside his desk, drops things, etc etc. They let him do this because his ADHD dx is on his IEP (plus they're kind, and enlightened). He even has a secret signal with his teacher that allows him to leave the room and go into the hall when he needs a break.

Our district, in addition to morning and afternoon recess, also has DPA (daily physical activity) in which they spend 30 minutes of curriculum time exercising. Each teacher can choose what to do, or in some schools they all exercise together - for instance our friends school has ALL the kids go to the gym & dance & do aerobics together. Taking away recess would only happen if there was a safety issue involved for the child or for other kids.

Jaylivg I'm not sure what I'd do in your situation (other than modify his IEP if he has one). I'd be livid, that's for sure.

CCN ,

No he doesn't have IEP . I am telling you , the teacher is horrible . The other day he was swinging on his tummy , just like his other friends did , and guess what ? He got himself in trouble , and he said it is so unfair because everyone else was doing the same but they don't get in trouble .

His homeroom teacher yells a lot , yesterday he told on another student and his teacher said " does it hurt you him doing that ? " The other student was making mean face to him . And DS said " no .. "
His teacher response then " WELL THEN STOP TATTLE TALE !! "

I mean i understand it gets tiring when the children tattle tale but don't need to yell at him . DS gets to the point where he doesn't know should he tell teacher or not if someone is bothering him . He came home telling me another student did this and that .. but he didn't say a thing to teacher , this makes me mad too .

He gets in trouble because he took a pencil out while they're supposed to watch " Magic school bus " on a video . Teacher said he's not paying attention . At home i made him writing what he learned during science ( magic school bus ) , and he wrote the whole story in details . So he did pay attention it's just it might not seem he pays attention but he does .. he has his own way , even if he's busy doing something , he's still paying attention . But yet he gets in trouble because of this !

I think by now he's just being labelled as a trouble maker , and that he's being watched like a hawk .

I really really dislike his school

It's funny US worries about childhood obesity , but yet , they take out recess as a punishment . The only time they get daily exercise !!! I understand if they did a major thing such as fighting .. then yes please take away recess but like i said what they're doing now , the punishment doesn't suit the crime .

The one thing I like about our dds' school is that they are very open minded about movement for kids and are very tolerant, even without IEPs. They understand kids' needs to move.

Oddly enough, the biggest problem I see here is the 5 min. silent time at the end of lunch. The purpose is so kids can finish their lunch? Kids can't eat if others are talking? That has no logic. I'm viewing this more likely as a control issue on the part of the school or those teachers / supervising staff just wanting a few minutes of silence themselves. I guess I'd be inquiring what the real purpose of 5 min. of silence is for and what it accomplishes.

At a guess, kids can't eat if they are using their mouth for talking. And hypoglycemia can get ugly with some.

Chronic issue with my oldest. In elementary school he has 20 minutes for lunch (including walking to and from the lunchroom) and his food regularly comes back home untouched. I kind of wish he had a 5 minutes supervised silence rule. Although to be fair in preschool he had 40 minutes sitting down time for lunch and even with frequent reminders from teachers to stop talking and start eating he still didn't eat much.

You are not overreacting at all. I have an 8 year old son without any behavior problems or special needs and I would complain about this policy for him, too! I am also a child and family therapist and can tell you for sure that many school policies run absolutely counter to normal, healthy child development...this one included.

Please note, I'm not standing up for the school having this rule.. but fwiw... we actually do this at our house sometimes! My dd11 talks literally *all the time* and she is extremely social. She is a kid who would talk her way through lunch and totally forget to eat. I'm not saying that's a reason for the school to put the policy in place, but from what I've seen, she's not the only kid who talks rather than eating during lunch at school - every time I visited the lunchrooms in elementary schools that my kids attended, the kids were all so happy just to be together and have the chance to talk that they weren't eating as much as they were talking, and I saw a lot of food get thrown away at the end of lunch. I don't have any mindset that my kids need to eat everything in their lunch, but I would pick them up after school and they would be *starving* and 9 times out of 10, still have quite a bit of their lunch left.

Soooo... not saying the school should have a rule in place like that, but I do see the logic in it!

polarbear

In my sons school (but common practice here) the first 20 minutes of the hour lunch is sitting down and eating. After that the child is free to go IF the teacher thinks enough has been eaten. Obviously they only do this for a few years but I think they would continue it if there was a need.

Why can't the kids who have finished leave and the others stay longer?

As I described early, my DD's school segregates the children by grade level, and while one is in the lunch room, another is on the playground. All the kids scheduled for the lunch room stay in the lunch room until time to go to recess.

I don't know what this is supposed to accomplish other than making the kids miserable.

Why can't the kids who have finished leave and the others stay longer?
----

Here in my state there are from 900 to 1100 elementary school students trying to get through the line and sit and eat. At my son's school the entire school gets free breakfast and free lunch so just about everyone (other than a random few who bring food from home because they want to) goes through the line. There is no time nor room in the cafeteria for shenanigans like letting someone stay a few minutes longer to eat or talk instead of eating. In fact, my son's elementary school is so worried about test scores they have instruction during lunch for some of the grades (on TV's around the cafeteria they have vocabulary on some days and on other days the kids have to read, my son likes to read but he would rather talk). INSANE.

I do remember as a kid though at my Catholic school that lunch and recess were one big thing. The teacher or nun walked us over and then left. So we managed to sit, eat, clean up, and then wander the fairly large grounds (there was a huge play ground, fields, and then a huge parking lot that had basketball, four square, Frisbee, jump ropes and kickball games). We were allowed to go where ever and do whatever we wanted to as long as when we saw our teacher (maybe she blew a whistle and you looked to see if it was your teacher?) we ran in.

I know there were parent volunteers and a few paid lunch aides in the lunch room and I know the PE coach was always on duty outside at lunch. But I will say that we had a lot more freedom than kids do today. I don't remember once anyone telling us to stop talking or that we were too loud. I assume if we were too loud they would have kicked the group of us being too loud out to go play rather than wait for us to go on our own. The food was good too! (I only bought once or twice a week). But good food, freedom to sit with your friends, manage your own time, get some fresh air/exercise...I do think we had it good.

Although i don't see a 5 minute silent lunch is a problem , i do see it as a problem because the punishment doesn't suit the crime . The punishment as i mentioned , was losing recess the next day .


My DS has been working on improving his behavior , and it is hard for me to accept that he will lose whole recess the next day because the day before he talked during that 5 minute silent lunch .

We're supposed to meet the school either tomorrow or the next day , they called this morning ( finally after 1 week waiting for their response !!

But anyway , please tell me what would you do if you were me , i really need some opinons .

I will bring up the lunch rule , since i don't really see the punishment fits the crime . Esp. for DS who's trying really hard to improve his behavior .

And another thing , he had a leftover bread yesterday after eating his lunch and he threw the small piece into the garbage can , and missed . Then he picked it up , and threw it in the garage , but yet one of the teacher 'moved his clip' saying he has no self discipline . Ds also said he's throwing his lunch box in the air but he catches it .. and that was also resulting clip moved and no self discipline .

Please correct me if i'm wrong , what is the big deal of throwing garbage into the trash can ? Is it wrong ? He did pick it up when he saw he missed the can . Am i being too soft or the school being ridiculous ? I really don't understand this .

And then DS told me yesterday that during PE he had to sit out because him and another student were pushing each other . The other student pushed him first , so he pushed back , they both were called by the coach and coach made DS sat out the whole time , while the other boy didn't get any consequences . DS was really not happy about this and felt that the coach just chose to believe the other student and being unfair .

I was also wondering if i should bring up about DS being told he's not using his time and material wisely because he was flicking money ( during math ) , or spinning his rules and taking out his pencils . Noted : he did all of these after he's done with his assignments . And that the teacher yelled in daily basis , when DS reported another boy because the boy was signaling him that he's stupid .. the teacher said to DS " does it hurt you ? "
and DS said quietly " No ... " Then teacher yelled " THEN STOP TATTLE TALE .. "

He doesn't know what to do anymore .. because if he's telling then he's afraid he might be in trouble .. i am afraid because if there is something that really is bad and needs to be reported , he probably won't do it because he's confuse ! should i or shouldn't i ..

I would definitely bring up the fact that it's very confusing and counterproductive to have him lose the next day's entire recess for one thing at lunch, when he's working so hard at everything else. He's just going to give up trying.

And the teacher(s) seem to be completely against him in everything. It's a perfect example of what I figured out in high school -- if you make a good impression on a teacher at the start, you can pretty much do no wrong in their eyes after that, but if you start with a bad impression, nothing you do is ever going to be good enough and you're going to be in trouble for everything. Fortunately for me, I was on the good side of that equation when I figured it out, but the poor boy who was on the other side had a heck of a year. Your son's teachers are convinced that he's nothing but trouble, and they will not see anything good in him. I'm not sure I would even bother staying for the rest of the year, if you had the means to keep him home and just start over next year. They're doing more harm than good.

Two things I know for certain:

1. If I was a child in the micromanaged classrooms of today, I would be on a behavior modification plan and labeled a problem child. Thank goodness I went to school in an age when teachers still understood that children were creative and wiggly and silly and sometimes loud and rambunctious and full of energy.

2. I agree with Jon on telling our kids at times that I don't care what the teachers say or expect when those expectations or comments are ridiculous. While I want my kids to learn to respect authority, I also want them to have the ability to filter through baloney and not lock-step obey everything.