So until recently DS5, and DD4, have had very limited screen time. DS5 has started to request to do "educational" things on the computer. Examples would be Big Brainz, Khan Academy, and Stack the States. I spent an entire afternoon the other day going through the Recommended Resources forum here so I have many, many more sites bookmarked that I know he would love. The problem is that he wants to do these constantly and often has a HUGE meltdown when he is told that it is time to stop.

I am so torn. I love seeing him learn on these sites but I really dislike seeing him want to give up most other play to sit in front of a computer screen. Also his meltdowns when it is time to stop often turns the whole thing into such a negative experience. I think if I thought he was learning much at school I wouldn't be having such a hard time. I see these programs as a chance for him to get some of what he is not getting at school.

How do you view educational sites and apps? How do you manage to have them be a nice addition to life instead of taking over life?

Thanks for any advice or insight you may have!

Hi Eibbed
There was another thread about tv screen time and there was a wide range of opinions. I actually don't think it's the issue unless you see it as an issue and it seems like you don't. I have had success putting the behavior on the table with my DS. Okay you can use it for an hour but if you get upset when it's time to stop you won't be allowed to the next day or cut into the time - I would have given you an hour but you are only getting 45 minutes because of your behavior last time- and the first time he is ok - he doesn't have to be happy just not tantrumming -and then give him extra time and interrupt him to make sure he knows he is getting extra.

He's young, they both are, so this is the time to try to start setting up behaviors. Some kids are huge addicts for screen time and it has to be controlled - managing it now can only help in the future.

To actually answer your question, we are fairly flexible, but he rarely stays on the iPad more than an hour - our choice but he doesn't fight it. He is now learning scratch and that takes awhile so I have been more flexible about time so he has time to accomplish something. But then he got a great courses DVD and wanted to watch all of it - I think we let him watch 2.5 hours in one setting, which was a new high, but hugely educational.

DeHe

With my ds5, I set a timer. When the timer goes off, the computer goes off (I do give a 5 minute warning). Also, my household flows better with a schedule, so ds knows the routine. But that's how it works for me. There have been times when he's really into something and can have more time. I think you have to figure out what you are comfortable with.

We use computer time as a reward, so if he doesn't cooperate when it's time to transition (within reason), no computer time tomorrow. As much as I love all that he can learn on the computer, he needs to do other things too.

Also...for a young child I look at what comes after the computer time.

When I was teaching I had a student who just never wanted to leave the playground after recess. His only other "love" was lunch. So I finally moved recess to directly in front of lunch. It was the only activity powerful enough to entice him to run to line up.

So sometimes creatively scheduling the activity that follows the one that is highly attractive to also be a highly attractive activity helps. I would never schedule bath time directly after computer time with my one son because he HATES baths. So bath first, then computer, then I read aloud with him (highly sought after activity).

"Eat your peas, then you can have your ice cream"...behaviorists call this the Premack Principle.

I'm guilty of letting my kids (DS4.5 and DS2.10) a lot of screen time all day ... from TV, Kindle apps, android apps, Leappad ... But they are both pretty good at just walking away from it on their own to find something else (like books, puzzles, pretend play) ... so as long as it's not the ONLY thing they want to do, I let them have it. It's the only time I can get anything done!

We've found that using timers for tasks (of all kinds) REALLY helps with a child that has a high need for autonomy. It takes (some of) the power struggle out of it, and prevents a lot of meltdowns on both sides.


If it's a transition thing, then yes to making a desirable activity "next" and to giving a gentle time-limit warning so that "the end" isn't a very unwelcome, intrusive surprise.


We still use all of those strategies with my 13yo DD. I give her a ten minute warning in the evenings when she's online with her friends. Without it, she is prone to the kinds of tantrums that only teens can muster. (Oy.) Even proctors for the SAT/ACT/AP exams use transition cues with adolescents, recall.


It's hard to remember that as cognitively able as our HG+ kids are-- they are still very much children. I'm always surprised when my DD behaves in very age-appropriate (but maddeningly irrational/contrary) ways. I'm just not used to it because she is ordinarily SO mature and rational! She's conditioned me to NOT treat her like a __ year-old. It is really rare that something like this isn't at least partially about my unrealistic or inappropriate expectations of my DD-- which she ordinarily meets. It's kind of unfair to her, really; I get upset because she isn't capable of ALWAYS behaving like an adult?? I feel horribly guilty when I realize that I'm doing that.

Most kids under 8-10yo have considerable trouble with transitions and limits (some of them for much longer). I've concluded that parents who never have this problem are blessed with children who are unusually compliant and have agreeable dispositions, high flexibility, and unnaturally low degrees of autonomy. Either that or they're not being truthful. Most gifted kids don't seem to be that sort of children to begin with, just anecdotally speaking. LOL.

I use timers in my sixth grade classroom all the time. Sometimes I'll ask students how much time they need for a task, and sometimes I negotiate. Or I'll say, "Let's see where we are in ten minutes. Ten minutes begins now."

I agree with using the electronics thing as a way of learning about themselves early on. I used to try and not have the electronics when she was younger, but once they're in school, especially from 2nd grade on, absolutely everyone uses something and it's part of "being in on the conversation" or having a community topic to discuss if all else fails. There are even some kids she's had playdates with that you can't get to play outside no matter what (if they're not your kids you can't really throw them out the door, LOL) so they end up playing XBox something or other.

We did have trouble in 2nd grade because the teacher let kids bring their DS to school for indoor recess. DD doesn't have one, and if she did she wouldn't have been allowed to bring it to school because she even had her crayons and jacket stolen! Besides I didn't agree with the teacher allowing it because some kids have families who could afford that stuff and some didn't. But all winter DD went on about it.

I'm glad that people here think that 8-10 year olds and above still need assistance with transitions and timing things, that makes me feel better about where DD is these days.

I don't think I really answered the question though

"How do you manage to have them be a nice addition to life instead of taking over life?"

Set limits, be very clear (such as using timers) and be clear with consquences such as lack of cooperation/outbursts when it's time to stop means no time allowed the next day or something like that. I stay away from electronics at least one hour before bedtime. No electronics in her bedroom. That's just us.

You have to manage it every step of the way. You can tell if it's interfering with scheduled activities outdoor play, eating, whatever. When they're a little older like what happened to my DD is that kids might try to get other kids' passwords if they play on servers (to use someone else's character to play if they are banned etc.) and it expands as they get older into how to use social networking, etc. When I disallowed her from playing on the minecraft server she got some hard times from a few kids at school who were trying to get her password (she doesn't know it, so the kid called our house and I politely sent him packing) but in the end she actually seemed relieved that the burden was lifted - not her choice she has strict parents!! She went back to single player or playing with her dad only. I hated, hated, hated those server days.

You just really have to stay in control - as usual easier said than done!

Thank you everyone!

I definitely think that I don't follow through with consequences for bad behavior as well as I should. I will work on the transition period a little more. You are right, it is so hard to remember that our little ones are still little sometimes.

I don't think that I expressed myself very well in my first post. I'm really interested in your views as to whether educational screen time, i.e. math drills, Khan Academy, etc. fall under the same restrictions on computer usage. I have this debate with myself constantly. Is there, should there be, a difference between the computer as a learning device and the computer as digital entertainment?

I know that a lot of my concern and inability to know where to draw the line comes from feeling as if he is not learning much at school. I feel guilty when I tell him he can't get on the computer for a school type activity when I know that he is showing that he is ready and willing to learn more. Where else is he going to get it? At the same time I see him being able to live on the computer and that is not something I want for him. He is only 5. What about building, playing outside, doing an art project?

I'll apologize now as I'm afraid I'm still not articulating this very well. Thank you for your patience.

Oh, I don't know-- I think you articulated it VERY well.

I've often had the same internal debate, since having a child who is more-or-less home-based all the time means that electronic media are her "window" onto the world at large, but we also feel that limiting that electronic diet is important given that she seems to have some potential to abuse it.

As far as I have been able to tell from research on the subject;

a) studies don't really adequately differentiate ACTIVE activities versus passive ones in evaluations of screen time, particularly with children under 10, and

b) it's not clear at all that such studies may be properly applied to HG+ persons as a population.

In other words, I don't know that there are good guidelines for this-- other than just the parent gut-check. I tend to feel that it's so highly individual that any really good guidance would not be generally very useful. It might be that HG+ children should have 0 to 6 continuous hours of screen time daily, but with the caveat that it needs to be active, (meaning that the programming REQUIRES something from the viewer), and that it should not interfere with other interests or take the place of previously enjoyable off-line activities.

Vague, right? But I think that is probably the truth. Different kids need different things. HG+ kids probably have an even wider distribution.

We allow SOME types of screen time much more than others. We have no need to limit television at all-- it's just not DD's thing. We also don't need to restrict FB, e-mail, or arcade-style gaming. Again, not addictive for her. What we have had to struggle against is RP-style gaming, in all of its many guises. Webkinz and Pokemon were a NIGHTMARE to regulate. So much so that we finally just put a moratorium on both things, because they were like crack. I've reluctantly said "no" to Minecraft preemptively on that basis, actually. After discussing it, DD had to admit that it was probably the right decision-- because after about 6th grade, and DEFINITELY with a virtual school, you have to allow internet access to allow them to do what they need to do educationally... and good luck policing it with a PG child. (UGH)

On the other hand, we do NOT limit educational gaming/activities, and haven't since DD was about five. If she wanted to play Reader Rabbit for a couple of hours, so be it-- and sometimes she did. If she wants to work on HTML code for an entire Saturday, only coming up for air to do chores and household basics, again, so be it. We draw the line there when we see a shift in her attitude. She cops a 'tude, and she gets electronics restrictions. Like a time-out, but for big kids.

Oh-- and if they are old enough for independent use, they are old enough for a couple of general family-rules type things.

a) An AUP (Acceptable Use Policy) that everyone in the family agrees to and SIGNS. I still have the one that DD signed when she was six.

b) Kids do NOT have an expectation of 'privacy' in electronic interactions. Period. This simple rule means: i) no late-night chat sessions or pay-per-view, ii) no electronics in bedrooms or other private spaces, and iii) NO wiping of 'history' in a browser without permission.

c) some agreement that parents have the right to limit activities as a result of judgment calls re: health, safety, and appropriate behavior.


d) INSIST on good ergonomics-- our kids are going to spend far more of their lives at this than we can even IMAGINE. Repetitive stress injuries are a real concern if we allow them to cultivate poor habits.

I don't know where I'd be without my little digital timer. It's amazing how that little electro beep works so much better than me saying, "Okay, that's it--it's been 10 minutes." It was also an important revelation when we realized that duh, cell phones have timers, and can be used as one when out of the house.

We recently got a new Wii game that we ALL find very addicting. DD has had a few freakouts when play time was up (as determined by timer beeping, which she knew in advance would happen). The consequence is that there is no Wii time the next day. She knows this. Of course, she is 9. This is tough for a 2yo to understand, and it's why I phased out computer time for a long time when DD was little--she was just too into it.

This is correct. (I follow this research very closely for work.) There's a little bit of research on toddlers and interactive books showing that that is a...weird interaction, but that's about it. Someone needs to GET ON THIS already.

Howler, you seemed to understand exactly what I was trying to get at. Thank you for your reply. You've given me a lot to think about. I never would of thought of ergonomics.

I want to limit screen time but then when I see him asking for certain programs I become so torn.

I think that I'm going to set a scheduled time each day, with a time limit, that is for entertainment purposes. If he wants to play Angry Birds or Temple Run so be it, though he really like Presidents vs Aliens yesterday. At other times when the usage is for educational purpose I'm going to try and relax my concerns and see where this leads. Last night he left Khan Academy to go listen to a story with his sister and that made me feel a lot better. He had a desire to participate in life not just sit in front of the computer.

Wish me luck!

I would be very careful about this, because you may be drawing a distinction that he has not yet made. He may find Khan Academy to be every bit as fun as Angry Birds. If it occurs to him that Khan Academy is "work," he may lose interest.

FWIW, my DD8's usage of the computer mostly consists of simple flash game sites (y8, girlgames) and browsing Youtube for funny videos (fails, song parodies). In other words... mental junk food. We don't worry about it, because she's challenged in (home)school, she has other activities where she's challenged mentally/physically, she spends a significant amount of time in free play with friends/parents, and she self-regulates her screen time to just a small portion of her day.

And that, I think, is what you really want to be focusing on here... when your DS is on the computer, regardless of whether it's mentally nutritious or junk, what else is he missing out on? Is he spending enough time in free play (which is VITAL for proper brain development)? Is he losing out on interactive time with peers and parents? Is he getting enough exercise?

The major problem that studies of screen time and children identify, time and time again, is that excessive screen time crowds out other necessary, beneficial activities. So, if you've identified a lack, then it becomes necessary to set limits. If not... no harm, no foul, right?