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Posted By: master of none y - 12/18/12 04:42 PM
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Posted By: DeeDee Re: The dreaded group grades - 12/18/12 04:56 PM
This teacher does need to learn some things about instructional design. It is really important for nobody to feel taken advantage of, which would remove any social benefit of having them work in teams. And the frustration sounds appalling for all of them.

Maybe you could recommend Larry Michaelsen's or Jim Sibley's work on team-based learning. Their model typically recommends that the group grades be weighted so that the contribution of each group member is taken into account. You teach the kids how their work will be assessed by you and by their teammates, at the end of the project you have them weigh their own contributions and those of the other kids, and then you examine the results of that process and use it as part of their individual grades.

See, for example, http://www.teambasedlearning.org/Default.aspx?pageId=1032384

DeeDee
Posted By: erich Re: The dreaded group grades - 12/18/12 05:13 PM
It is typical middle school teacher. I found it very hard to persuade them to make any change.
Posted By: intparent Re: The dreaded group grades - 12/18/12 06:52 PM
I think you D is honestly doomed for the rest of this year on the group project front. If you have talked to the teacher and he did not change his approach at all, he is likely going to have to learn the hard way that he is expecting more than most middle schoolers can give. You are not obligated to improve his performance -- it sounds to me like he will get some knocks from parents of more average kids without you pushing this further. But it may take him a while to revise his assignments and plans based on those lessons.

Probably the best you can hope for her from this experience is the knowledge that a grade lower than an A is not the end of the world... As long as she learned what she was supposed to for her portion of the project and turned it in, I would leave it at that. It is sixth grade; you likely have two more years left at this school at a minimum. I say keep your gunpowder dry for bigger issues.
Posted By: epoh Re: The dreaded group grades - 12/18/12 07:09 PM
Is his dept head aware he's assigning work that requires students not only have a computer at home, but internet access? I could be wrong, but I highly doubt that's kosher.

My step-mom is a principal and has had to shutdown things like this in the past because the teachers don't understand that not all students have a computer, let alone internet access.
Posted By: Dude Re: The dreaded group grades - 12/18/12 07:21 PM
It sounds like you've already given your DD the best advice I have to offer to you: "those things are not always in our control." You can tell someone something, but you can't make them learn from it. Since this guy felt it necessary to say he's a "trained mediator," he probably isn't going to accept feedback on his mediation methods from a parent. So, he'll have to live and learn, instead.

I see a silver lining here. The teacher is mindful enough of the pitfalls of group projects that he put in a tracking mechanism for individual efforts, and once he found out your DD has been doing all her group's work, he shut her down. At least she won't get stuck doing all the work and the group getting all the credit.
Posted By: Val Re: The dreaded group grades - 12/18/12 08:14 PM
Personally, I believe that each individual's contribution to a group project should be graded individually, especially at this age. There can also be an overall group grade, but a teacher has to recognize that some people work harder than others (real-world employers definitely notice this).

Otherwise, the guy is just putting the diligent students in an impossible situation: either you do everyone else's work secretly or you get a crappy grade. ?? That's wrong.

In the real world, people who don't do any work usually get fired. And if other people pick up their slack, they tend to get rewarded. In school, kids who don't work fail. They don't get a B because Mary or Joey did their work for them. So what exactly is this idealist trying to teach the kids who work? That they have responsibility without authority in his classroom? That they need to play the role of a parent or teacher and harangue the other kids into working? That you can do nothing and still get a good grade, thanks to Mary's efforts? IMO, this is the message he's sending, based on what you've written (maybe there's more to it?).

Personally, I would have a talk with this guy or his boss. But I realize that this is probably futile because he may have made up his mind and the boss may want to protect his staff. Dunno.
Posted By: Val Re: The dreaded group grades - 12/18/12 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by kcab
But, as far as what to say to the teacher, I would let your DD do the talking. I think it should make more of an impression if she tells him how she feels about the group projects - perhaps as a general thing rather than in the middle of one of them. I can see how she might not want to do that, but hopefully another student will give him the feedback.

Yes, I agree.

I may have been too harsh in my last message; it's true that some kids just don't have access (though the girl who was described also sounded uninterested).
Posted By: momtofour Re: The dreaded group grades - 12/21/12 03:04 PM
I am just here to offer sympathy - no solutions. I HATE group projects with every fiber of my being. Ds had two this week, both disasters. The biggest issue is that they aren't being taught HOW to do a group project. I get that working in a group, leadership, etc is an important skill. However, at school, they are just told- do this project, good luck, you figure it out. The latest project was writing a group pyramid story (so, 10 kids started with first part, then 2 groups of 5, then 4 groups of 2 and 3, etc). They were supposed to use Google docs, but my kid doesn't even have an email. Half the parents can't figure out Google docs. One kid "edited" by writing in bathroom humor over and over... (yep, this IS a gifted class). Teacher wants them to "work it out themselves." Ds went to bed at 10pm last night and some kids still hadn't made any revisions. He printed out his story flow, but if anyone makes changes after, they'll all be dinged (the earlier parts of the story must stay exactly the same- it's like a create-your-own-ending story). He tried to tell everyone not to change it, he wrote notes, but who knows?
Okay, sorry to hijack with my own vent but I HATE HATE HATE group projects because they always seem to be crazy and I always have the kids who end up doing 90% of the work.
UGH!
Posted By: puffin Re: The dreaded group grades - 12/23/12 02:28 AM
I hate group work too. It invariably means you either have to do all the work or accept being dragged down. Or end up doing stuff other people were supposed to do because they don't come through.

In a workplace where you have a group who have different skills and someone in charge it works OK but children should not be expected to deal with this of thing.

The only good group experiences I have had were a couple of those "build a bridge with paper and paperclips" exercises.

Most of all I hate group stuff because every thing takes three times as long.

Yuck. Yuck. Yuck

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