I have been lurking here for a long time. I am a lone parent who is beyond desperate and hoping for some ideas from here. As I have read things here I can recognize my five year old son and trust my gut instinct that he is g+t. All milestones very early, fantastic memory, curiousity to the point of aggressiveness and extremely creative and "different" Does lego for teenagers, plays with numbers, obsessive about death,time and other subjects of interest to him. Very wilful and argumentative, etc, etc. The problem that I am having is that he has recently become aggressive to other same age children and bullies and teases them mercilessly. Fine with older children and much younger. I did have him tested but he did not cooperate and scored high average. Hit ceiling on one subtest and only seven on another. what do I do now?

Depending on his age, it's hard to get an average read. When DD8 was 3 her pediatrician recommended testing. She was very shy and didn't talk a whole lot. Her score was not GT. At seven she was administered the WISCIV and tested at 148 which I'm told is a not common score on that test.
I think it's common especially for HG(+) to be frustrated with same age peers. Also, at a young age they don't seem to have those insights that would allow them to keep their comments to themselves, I think it's a good idea to get involved and try to discourage this behavior from becoming a solid habit.
There was a period of time when I had to watch DD6 100% of the time during playdates, so I could interrupt her each time she said or did something that would be considered socially unnacceptable and bring it to her attention. I would gently ask her to step away and calmly explain in age appropriate way why it was not okay and how the other child may react/feel. It seemed I did this over and over and over and over....etc....
It's an ongoing process but has gotten much better.
If you have a child psychologist who works with GT, perhaps you can recruit that person to help you.

Good luck

Welcome Rachibaby. I think incogneato's advice is a good one.

I have 5 year old son as well. He used to be a very reliable kid when it came to playdates. I never had to worry about him doing something bad but around 5.5 he became a pain. All of the sudden we started having problems. He started being bossy and mean if the other child let him. If the other child was in charge all was well though.

I think there were two reasons for it. First of all he needs kids with whom he can play on certain level. I am sorry to say that but some kids are no longer a good match for him. It sounds bad but on the other hand I got to respect that he may prefer not to play with some of his former friends and we stopped setting up playdates with some of them.

The other thing is he his problem with new situations and people. When we meet new kids (as we've done that a lot lately because we are moving towards HS and met a few HG friends) he is nervous and sometimes tries to get attention the wrong way.

It doesn't help that he can get his younger brother on his side and he then starts behaving like a jerk too.

We now have a deal that if he doesn't like a playdate or simply has had enough (been there for too long or is tired for example) he may ask to go home and we will leave within the next 15 minutes. If the playdate is at home he is more than welcome to go to his room and get some alone time if needed.

Things are much better now but I still remember being horrified when my well behaved kid threw toys at other five year old. Gee.

Hi rachibaby,

Plan to test again in a year (basically, when your son has picked up reading proficiently and the learning curve takes off). In the meantime, monitor playdates carefully. I found that there was a period of time my kids did not enjoy other kids, so we just suspended organized play. Instead, I'd read to them and they'd read to me, we'd play board games, bike ride, go to museums. It was way more work for me (and more enjoyable) but I have always found that the more time I spent with each child, the better-behaved they were. This is still true, from my 6 yr old to my almost 14 yr old. It's very demanding! If you don't have that kind of time, see if you can set him up with some independent activities (like legos or computer games) that can be "checked" rather than full-time interaction. Maturity will come with age. Begin a dialog about what is acceptable & unacceptable behavior, using how others feel when he does something inconsiderate ("how do you think John feels when you tease him? Would you like that?") Have consequences for bullying/naughty behavior.

At 5, they're trying to test limits and they need to learn respect for others and empathy. While it's sometimes hard to do, I remember one mom who only moments after she arrived at a playground, turned around and went home with her boys when they misbehaved. I was so surprised! But I've thought about it a lot. She was clearly communicating she was in charge and meant what she said that they needed to behave (her kids were WAY better behaved that mine or most others).

Great advice! Understanding, yet unflinching. Nice work, friends!

Welcome, Rachibaby~

Maybe your son needs a break from those playmates that he isn't getting along with. Are there older kids who are willing to play with him, or teenagers you could hire as sitters to give yourself a break? When I was a teenager, I babysat regularly for a GT preschooler (thinking back, he was probably HG+) and enjoyed playing games with him and reading to him.

Has your son started school?

Definately! I didn't think to add what is a very good point, cym. While I think it's important to manage the child's bad behavior, it's also important to respect who the child is and manage the environment. As they grow and get more experience they can make better choices for themselves. When they are little, they can't just say: "I'm feeling overstimulated right now, I need a break from social activity."
If I really think about it, I do that as well. I think it's an intuitive skill for me that has been more automatic than purposeful. Somedays a playdate is just a bad idea and I think I've gotten better at determining that for her.
So I guess I try to attempt to balance between managing their behavior and making sure I have reasonable expectations. Sure sounds simple. For me it isn't though!

Thanks everybody.
He goes to pre school five mornings a week and starts school full time in september. I am dreading that as the goals for reception are counting to twenty, writing your name and so on. He is currently about two years on from that. I do not work and support elderly parents which takes up a lot of my time. He is bored rigid but as I have no evidence to show school I am unable to approach them. The latest incident took place at the local park when three other boys from pre-school turned up and he ruthlessly tormented them. He is very young emotionally. I gave two warnings and then we left. He does play with lego a lot, but I feel he is lonely and craves interaction with six to seven year old children. This can't happen as they are all in school. Other activities are out of the question as I live on state benefits. I am counting the days to school.

Another problem is that he constantly seeks interaction and stimulation and does not sleep. I guess I just wanted to hear that others have btdt. All his peers(age) go home and play quite contently..

Something to consider is videotaping him the next time he does this then showing him the tape of it. You will help him to behold himself as others do. Viewing his actions should create a sense of shame in him. You can then show him the tape later and say that you are so proud of him for maturing.

Is he in sports? You can put him in football or soccer - many leagues have assistance and the 2-3 hours of practice and games will also give you time to recharge while giving him an outlet that will help him to burn some energy AND interact with other kids.

Hi SweetieRachi,
Welcome! So glad you found us. Yes, I had a non-sleeping constant interaction seeker. BTDT. My son is 11 now and can fake normal for a few days at a time now. It does get less tiring, although not really easier.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

My son, at that age, was the only child at home and sometimes bossy around his older cousins, especially the one who is a year older. My son couldn't understand why his cousin wouldn't read directions and would do things like delete his saved files on games or not read signs that he could clearly see. Kindergarten was the first time he was around a lot of kids his age and it was not what he expected. He went to school all excited, thinking he would get to learn new things, and it wasn't long before he told me that school was not very educational. He was the second youngest in his class but the only one reading. He had to do "letter of the week" with all the others when he was reading at about a 5th grade level. The only kids he had been around were the kids in his acting class (ages 4-19) most of whom were gifted, so he had no idea how different he was until he started school. At our school, redshirting is very popular so most of the boys in his class were a year older and bigger and there were a few bullies in his class. I think my son knew better than to be bossy around these boys. He spent most of his time on the playground talking to the teachers.

My son definitely felt more comfortable with older gifted kids because he could be himself around these kids. He didn't have to put on an act or watch what he said around them just to fit in. He just didn't have much in common with the kids his age, so I tried to find multi-age groups for him to be with. Unfortunately, the church groups and everything else we looked at were age segregated. The only thing we ever found was a local community musical theater group for children. This was a good outlet for my son's energy and creativity and he learned to work well in a group where they all depended on each other to put on a good show. Another thing that he learned was how to improvise because during a show, when someone forgets lines or doesn't come out on stage at the right time, you have to make something up well enough that the audience doesn't know. I think this is one of the most important things that he learned because as a twice exceptional child my son will need to improvise, probably for the rest of his life. He made some really good friends there and I think these friendships will continue even when he quits the group.

Our budget was very tight when he was that age, since I don't work outside the home, but we did without some things so he could be in the acting group because not only was it a combination of dancing and singing and acting lessons for only $40 a month, it was time around other kids like him and he really needed this.

I have heard of homeschoolers on very tight budgets who barter for lessons for their kids by babysitting or cleaning or crocheting or whatever they could do.

My son always seemed to not need as much sleep as I do and he didn't like to play by himself. There were times I just needed to be alone and tried to hide in the bathroom and take a long hot bath, but he would sometimes stand by the door and tell me about some interesting thing he just read about online or something on television. He just wanted to talk to me and I felt really bad when I got cranky and sometimes yelled at him to just leave me alone for five minutes because I needed a break too. But the stress of never having any alone time and also being responsible for helping take care of my elderly mother who lives next door, was just too much.

My son is now 10 and he is not as fidgety as he used to be and he does not need as much attention as he used to. I think he was about 8 before I finally convinced him that I needed time to be alone and adequate sleep for health reasons. I used to wonder if it was attachment parenting gone wrong when he wanted to be with me and talk to me all the time but there was just no one else for him to talk to.

I hope school works out well for your son.

SweetieRachi,
I think that if it's possible to move him to a different preschool were he won't be so bored, he will behave better. Of course you still have to teach him what's acceptable, but my hunch is that he HATES his agemates, and is acting out. Can you keep him home until school starts? Even if he has to watch TV while you take care of your parents, I think that is preferable to him getting engraved habits of mistreating the other kids at preschool when your aren't around.

I guess it's worth it to sit down with the preschool teachers and outline the specific behaviors you are seeing and ask if they also see this.


- so - where was i? - oh yeah -

You can certianly demonstrate to the schools that you child is advanced in his learning needs without an IQ test. Most Schools hate IQ tests anyway. You need to find out what the expected learning skills are for kids in Kindergarden, First and Second grade. Then you need to see
1) what he already knows
2) what he could learn with just a bit of introduction

Elementary school isn't about deep thought - it's about learning various skills. If you want a happy child, you are going to need to get him with peers that he enjoys. One option is an private gifted school - many have financial aid. Another option is a grade skip. If you son can already do the Kindy, and much of the 1st grade skills, then consider letting him start school in 1st grade.

Go to the bookstores, look at the workbooks for the various grades and subjects. If you want to impress teachers, you want a kid who is reading, can tell time and add. See if you can get 'Handwriting without tears' through your library. You can document his abilities if you can 'speak their language.' See if you can make friends with a teacher and get access to their 'scope and sequence' for the grades. It may be publically availible on their website. Remember that what you want, and what the school wants is an happy, emotionally healthy child. Your job is to make a case that in order for your son to be that, he needs a reasonable academic fit.

I'm really worried that Kindy won't be the answer to your troubles, in fact if his hopes are up for actually learning something in 'real school' you may get even more behavior than you have now! School get quite confused by this behavior, so try to help them see your child in ways that they can recognise as 'high achieving.'

Love and More Love,
Grinity

hi everybody

Thanks again. It is so nice to talk to those who truly understand. I cant reply to all as have booked this for a limited time. However to add to the equation it would seem that there is another dimension to this. There is a child who is the same age who has some mobility problems and wears a nappy. It would seem that some of the children have been teasing and gossiping about it. My mother uses a wheelchair and ds is very aware of where disabled can park, is the space big enough and so on. There is also another child who is on the autistic spectrum. Ds is very friendly with a child at church who is eight and also on the spectrum with a high iq. It would seem that he is very put out at that children are poking fun at this child. He has always been empathetic to others who he perceives as less fotunate than him(although not always acting on this) Just thought Id throw that in there.

You are probably right Grinity when you say that school may not be the answer. He apparently responded to the question "How high can you count?" with "I could tell you but then you would die." "Why is that?" Big sigh. "Because if I counted up to infinity then I would die first and as you are older than me then you would die first." She knows that he can read too, but apparently makes them all go back to the the beginning. Scholarships are only available in year three upwards here(England). And they have knocked acceleration on the head as it is a heavily oversubscribed school and class sizes are capped at thirty.
Love to all

Oh dear!


Oh dear! I'm laughting and crying at the same time. This is exactly what I mean about abstract thought NOT being the language to impress elementary school teachers in - at least in the USA. I hope it's different and there is more appreciation for abstrct thought in the UK, but here these kind of stories 'slay' me, but bounch off the teachers.

Sorry I don't know the details of early school in England, but - how old are the kids supposed to be when they start year three? Perhaps you can approach folks there and see if they can admit him as a year three?

Also - what is the homeschooling situation? Once a kid get on their 'high horse' and starts tilting at windmills it's a lot of years before they have the maturity to realize, "Hey, we are all jerks in our own way, I can try to change my agemates' attitudes and behavior, but there is still a lot to love about them while I'm waiting.

This is the crux of asynchrounous behavior in my house. DS had the mentality to be upset by other people's bad behavior, but not the maturity to handle that awareness.

What happens if you bring your concernes about the way the disabled children are being treated to the school?

BTW, many of us have found that districts who say 'no way' to acceleration suddenly change their tune when looking at kids like this.

BTW2 - write down the infinity story and date it. Keep a journal of 'unusual' behavior, including his response to the other kids being mistreated. Next time he gets a round of testing be sure that the tester hears these stories. Also be sure that DS understands that you are trying to help the schools understand what he does and doesn't know so that school can be a place where he learns many things each day. Ask him what he thinks would happen if the tester got a chance to really get to know him...

LOve and more love,
Grinity

Oh I loved the counting to infinity!!!!

I'm sorry for the troubles you are having. I hope others here have some great advice for you.

Dazey

I found out yesterday that he has been quite a handful there lately. He has been changing words to songs so they still rhymm but different and funny. They seem to think it is funny.He only has a week to go now. They start school the year they turn five. He is actually five in september.

Reception is equivalent to kindergarten, so year three are seven and eight year olds. They have lots of very bright children here!


I have kept a diary of all his "little moments". you know, just when you think that they might be not so bright after all.


The school seems largely unaware of the teasing of these children and I am reluctant to draw it to their attention as I have already spoken to teacher in charge.
Home schooling is not an option as I have to get a job as government here expect me to be working once he is of school age. My benefits are already reduced as I am in a long running dispute with the csa. Also he is a very social child and hates being with just me. If he had his way we would be out all day every day.



I had him assessed initially to rule out adhd as he presents that way if bored. I knew he didn't but wanted documentary evidence to prove it so that we wouldn't waste time going down that road.
I will just have to let the school learn the hard way.. I have armed myself with plenty of information and intend to never sit across the table from a school professional who knows more about this than I do.

Incidentally his teacher at his first nursey, aged three said that she had never in twenty five years sat across the table from a parent and had a conversation like the one she had with me!




[quote=Grinity's Flashback-mobile]
When my DS11 was in daycare, the 4 year old room, the teacher was complimenting my son for his politeness.

My eyes bulged, and in the next moment, my son got up from his seat, ran to the teacher, who was then talking to another child, and bellowed: "EXCUSE ME" because he wanted her attention RIGHT NOW. That didn't suprise me, because that's the kind of kid he was. The teacher smiles and looked at me and said, 'See, he's so polite, he always says 'please' and 'excuse me.'

This is exactly what happens at his school. They give him a disproportionate amount of time and energy that I am unable to sustain. He is fun to work with, but who can do that for all day every day.



.

Sounds like a great plan Rachibaby! Don't let the schools intimidate you.

I'm glad that you've already got an official 'rule-out' for ADHD. Our schools also couldn't belief that there want's 'something wrong with him.' Here in the US, I don't think there is such a thing as ruling-out ADHD, my hunch is that the schools here would demand a re-evaluation to see if the child has developed it later.

I'm glad to hear that you are keeping a diary.

I really upsets me that schools here do all kinds of things that feed into a kid being 'full of himself' and 'expecting to be the center of attention' and then turn around and blame the Mothers.

Such as - giving a child work with is clearly below their readiness level, then being delighted when the child does well, and praising the child for work that didn't require any effort.

Such as - being charmed with the 'little adult performer' and giving them more than their share of attention when they are little and cute. Then a few years later being freaking out and upset by their class clown.


I guess there are no easy answers.


Good news is that it sounds like he will be amoung the youngest in the class when he starts school.
Good news is that you understand him.
Good news is that the 3s do have a gifted program (although don't be too suprised if it turns out not to be enough - there are levels of giftedness - and they matter)


hope that helps. You probably are already doing similar. I have no doubt that you will be ready mentally for what the schools can through at you, but unless UK schools are quite different from US ones, I would like to save you some of the emotional turmoil that come with the 'they just don't get it' thing. School here know that they aren't going to go away, and that we are - so time is one their side.

I also wish someone could have shown me my future and convinsed me of the need for a small but dedicated part of the day for building mental muscles. My son really was being influenced by his preschool in ways I had no idea of, and if I could have counteracted that by insisting on being the leader at home with 10 or 15 minutes of drill, I think he would have grown into the kind of kid that they schools were better able to understand and handle, and he would have been happier in the elementary years. He also would have had much better trust in himself - more solid on the inside.

Sisterly hugs
grinity

Grinity - I read your advice with interest. It's what I'm attempting to do with both my boys. Can you provide a link to online info or a book by Sylvia Rimm?

Hi and thanks again.

I am practically homeschooling him at home in the afternoons now, but this is because he demands this insistently. This is not going well. He is ferociously strong willed and wants to follow his own agenda. He can read and write, but is left handed and writes in circles around the page. He can read it so will not try to write in lines.

Also I would not describe myself as particularly academic and am unable to keep up with his aggresive quetioning. He has recently started to discover negative numbers but I am not maths minded and cannot explain things to him. He then loses his temper and stomps off. I am convinced that I am not the right temperament to teach him. He often comes out with stuff that he has worked out by himself and when asked says, "I just know it"

I have charted his behaviour with the abc method for a long time and his out of bounds behaviour always occurs when he perceives he is not the centre of attention or is understimulated. His ideal level of stimulation and activity is up at five am and question and follow me round till school until eight thirty. Sometimes play with lego for up to two hours, but still talking. Then off to school, park for lunch, out in the afternoon and then back at home for "activities", even whilst eating. Then constantly on the go until he literaly passes out at ten pm. If any of this is not forth coming he acts out and is impossible to ignore.


He has his trial day at reception today. Time will tell. They appear to be more concerned that he is on the 0.04 percentile for height and 50th percentile for head!

My situation is different, though I can relate to the child that needs a lot of interaction. And the bossy. She is only 3, but when she learns facts, she likes to pass them on when useful in an authoritarian manner.

I try and work with her on what can be mean and bossy and "princess manners" and being thoughtful of other people's feelings. Although she is very social, some of these behaviors could get very annoying and cause problems. I think for young gifted children who understand and absorb info, it can be really hard not to have an outlet.

Although she goes to preschool 5 days a week 9-3:30, a Montessori where she does her "work" alone or with one other, it helps. During the summer I have her going to various activities, mostly sports camps in the morning and then we do the beach thing in the afternoon. There are many kids her age on the beach and she has to learn good social skills since many are siblings and they can shut her out. Also at tennis camp the kids were at least a year older and she really has to work since she is a little small for her age and she wasn't nearly as good as they. She didn't care for it and she has one more week of tennis camp between swim camps. I thought maybe I would cancel but I think the social aspect and her need to be the least skilled in the group is a good exercise.

Ren