Looking for advice here.

DS 9 is a DYS. Classic PG kid - self taught reader at 2, read dictionaries and encyclopedias for fun, etc etc.

DD 8 is a hider. She finally cooperated with testing - or at least some portions of the test - and she has a verbal IQ that would qualify her for DYS, just not the achievement test scores to back it up. (Yes we will probably apply anyway, too close not to. That is the topic for a different day though.)

Anyway - DS is resenting that DD is getting attention for being smart. Despite our best efforts at encouraging him to identify himself as more than just smart, smart is central to his self image. Seeing DD as smart hurts him terribly.

What is more, he has gotten into the habit of putting forth no effort. After all, it isn't generally required. She, however, is just getting into the habit of putting forth effort. As such, she is showing him up right and left.

While she isn't really rubbing it in, she is enjoying it. Who can blame her after all these years of adoring smart big brother - she can compete with him if she puts her head to it.

Meanwhile, he is hating it. Who can blame him after all these years of seeing himself as the smart one and her as the one who needs his help.

How do we get past this stage as quickly and painlessly as possible?

Thanks for any ideas -

Mary

I think this kind of lesson is actually a benefit of having a sibling--for both your kids. Right now, your DS is learning an unpleasant lesson, but I think you will be able to help him get something positive out of it.

A person's identity should not be based on how smart (or not smart) they are compared to others. Help your DS understand his identity in terms of his own interests and accomplishments.

Self-esteem comes from making an effort and meeting a challenge.
Maybe you can direct both your children to challenges other than competing with each other (or anyone else for that matter.)

That could be easier said than done if they have competitive personalities.

If nothing else, it's a good way to present to both of the children that their sole identity shouldn't be "the smartest one". DD8 was de-throned a bit when DD6 was tested and I hadn't realized she had seemed to have labelled herself "she who is most smart and is never wrong or challenged".
In a way, we had reinforced this image without even realizing it. I'll pass some of the blame over to the school, though, she had solid reinforcement of that all day!
I'm glad I caught this when she was young, though. It can lead to perfectionism and a host of other problematic issues.
I'm not going to pretend they aren't smart, nor will I minimize how different they are when it's an issue that is relative based on time and place. But I sure hope they realize how special they are in all the other ways they are special.
They are competitive, that's an issue I will never be able to fully resolve for them. I like to try and balance it by encouraging them to support each other in all sorts of endeavors. Hope this makes sense and is helpful.

I agree with Cathy. I also think that learning this lesson at 9 is preferable to learning it at 18 or 25. Both of your kids may be realizing that IQ alone isn't enough, and that hard work is necessary for success.

I think it's vital that very highly gifted kids learn this lesson, because a time will come when something won't come easily. If a person can't draw on past experiences of working hard, s/he may crumble in the face of the challenge.

We spend a lot of time teaching our kids to keep trying, even when a task seems too hard. Then, when something seems impossible to do, we remind them of the times when they did something in spite of thinking it was too hard.

Val

Good for her!!

DS needs to realize that he is not the smartest person on the planet nor does he know everything. He also needs to respect the opinions and hard work of others.

Its better to learn this now than get crushed when its harder for him to adjust.

A suggestion would be for them to work together to solve a problem, make something, or to find something out.

Another is for each one to make a regular presentation to the other, soemthing you structure to ensure that its NEW material for both of them. Ie. she does Botany and he does Geology. This way they learn to learn from others AND learn how to transmit knowledge as well.

Absolutely, this has seemed to be the best medicine for intellectual competitiveness in our house.



Haven't tried this specifically. Sounds like a good idea, I'm going to give it a whirl.
Good thread, good ideas.

Hi Mary,
Glad to hear that DD finally allowed herself to be seen!

I think your DS is having his turn to 'squeek' as his joints un-freeze from the position of 'smart=easy.' My guess is that both your children are facing underachievement issues in their own ways.

What kinds of accomidations is DS getting at school?

I really like http://www.sylviarimm.com/whybrightkids.html
but after going on and on about common parent mistakes, she fesses up that just plain being wildly underplaced can cause all the obnoxious perfectionistic behaviors and internal confusions of smart/self identity.

((Waving Wildly))
It's great to hear from you!
Grinity

Thanks - good suggestion. I'll see if I can cook up something that requires them both to use their strengths to get to the solution. That might be particularly useful.

I'd love any other practical ideas. I know it is good for him, but knowing that doesn't help me help him. And straight up encouragement doesn't work - we have been doing that for years.

Grinity - Yes, Snoopy is wildly underchallenged at school and things have only gotten worse over the summer. Having a tough time with him. Doesn't want summer homeschool - which is really what he needs to maintain his sanity. But is refusing to self-challenge these days. While Barbie has taken to reading huge novels, he has reverted to reading nothing but video game manuals.

He has only skipped one grade, but 2 years ago, it was recommended that he skip an additional two grades. I just can't see him doing that though. And, in fairness, at least during the months prior to the science olympiad, he is fully engaged in school and in studying for the contest. The problem is that after it is over, there is nothing to challenge him.

At least next year he will have the same set of teachers - and by the end of the year last year they had come to realize that he wasn't getting enough challenge. So, if they can just remember what they concluded last year, maybe we can make something happen this year.

Mary

I am following this thread with great interest since I have a DS5 who is a DYS and a DD4 who seems to be following in her brother's footsteps. Right now the two of them fight so much with each other. At times I am so frustrated that they can't seem to get along.

I know a lot of the fighting occurs when they are vying for attention. My son is very academic while his sister has great artistic and physical talents. DH and I try to give each their own attention and focus on their individual talents but it does get tough at times.

I think I need to set up more collaborative opportunities for them. The only thing they seem to agree on and work together doing right now is excluding DS2. Poor kid. Always being shut out of rooms.

Hi Mary,

I wish I knew the answer to this problem!

Teambuilding? Something that gets them to be on the same team? Could backfire...Science Olympiad? take up new activity together, like golf, tennis, cooking, that gets them building a relationship not based on academics? I haven't really done this yet, and find DS12 will tease or bully DS9 when left together (e.g. kayaking recently). However, DS12 is very protective of DS9 when they've gone off to camp together (without grownups around).

For us, I've been just trying to keep them separate. Don't do homework in the same area. Sorry I can't give any more advice but will keep reading to see if others have the "cure". Good Luck!

video game manuals - I love those things! If only you could find a game manual that showed him how to do programing - my son has one that's called: Legal ways to Hack World of Worcraft, or something like that, and he's totally in love. That is at 11, not sure he would have nibbled last year, though. Are any of his favorate games 'hack-able?' Also - can he find any forums about his favorite video games and start posting his tips or reviews? At least this gets them writing. But yes, unless you can get him involved enough to self-enrich with the computer games, you will have to insist on summer school - perhaps a local community college class instead of just 'mom'? or a high school teacher mentor? I totally believe that the sib thing is a symptom of poor fit, rather than a 'cause.' Of course it will show up there - they are so availible, and it gets your attention, right? At least he isn't throwing chairs!

If money is an issue, I think one can audit community college classes for free. You just have to sit with him or find a teen to do it.

I do hope that his teachers will 'remember' what they learned last year, but I still think you need a plan to help them 'enrich.' Online class at school?

Would he be willing to take what he knows from Science Olympiade and write his own 'video game manual' style book/powerpoint/website - "Insiders tips to Powning the Scienc Olympiade?" How many months does preperation take care of? How many does that leave?

Great to hear from you,
grinity

I am okay with some of the sibling rivalry. As one article I found pointed out, the only way you have zero rivalry is if one kid is running the other kids. I know that has happened at times. (Although, in truth, they take turns running each other, so maybe it isn't completely unhealthy.)

As for summer school, we do have the tutor one day a week - but the kids consider that fun rather than educational, and I think she runs it that way. Just that she runs it as fun for really smart kids, so there is some intellectual stimulation there.

Snoopy is still doing ALEKS over the summer and I have given him a goal of wrapping up the 6th grade material. Granted, it isn't a very ambitious goal given where he is now, but a goal nonetheless.

As for Barbie, she is a reader and is challenging herself well.

OT - does anyone have a good source for titles that are appropriate for an 8 yo who reads like an adult?

Swiss Family Robinson and Watership Down were two of my favorites.

All are good. I really enjoyed these authors when I was 7-8. I really balled my head off during some scenes in these books so be prepared. ( When Cafall was killed, I was totally wiped out. )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Is_Rising_Sequence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_L'Engle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Narnia

More mature themes - 9+

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._R._Tolkien

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podkayne_of_Mars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mote_in_God%27s_Eye

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost

You will want to have access to an OED or Wikipedia or an annotation when doing Paradise Lost.

There are some very good adaptions of JRRT to audio books. The BBC has an EXCELLENT adaptation that makes for great listening.

Brian Fagan has some very good works on history and its interelationship with climate. I attended a lecture of his when I was 12.

http://www.brianfagan.com/

The Cosmos series by Carl Sagan is available from Netflicks or you can DVR it. It touches on a number of subjects.

Mary, my DS8 loves the series of books about a robot named Norby by Janet and Isaac Asimov. The first one in the series is called Norby, the Mixed-Up Robot. There are at least 12 to 15 books in the series and are about a young cadet named Jeff who goes off and has amazing adventures on other planets. They are not as dense as Isaac Asimov's adult books (and are not frightening at all), and can be found in the juvenile section of the library. But they are still challenging for kids who are reading at the 6th-8th grade level. We started reading them to our son when he was five or six, and he now enjoys them on his own.

We are also beginning to explore the Jules Verne books. I would love suggestions from other people, particularly in the science fiction/fantasy avenue. We have to be kind of careful about content, though, since his reading level doesn't match his fear of things hiding under his bed level. He will love Tolkien some day, but it would keep him up at night now!

I have seen that series before, but hadn't really thought about it. However, I guess DD is doing a lot of sci fi already - along with the fantasy that she normally prefers. She might like Verne too.

Thanks -

Can you ask the Tutor to come up with some 'fun' homework, some organic way that the work they do independently during the week can be used during the tutoring Day to have even MORE fun?
Perhaps the Tutor needs to be nudged to 'up the ante' a bit?

I like the 6th grade Alexs goal. For reading, that is much harder. Does she like non-fiction?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

She strongly prefers fiction. One of the reasons why DS can't believe she is smart. After all smart people must prefer nonfiction over fiction..... <eyes rolling>

LOL, I even had a Gifted Coordinator quote that to me as a reason to keep DS out of the gifted program. His library records show he does not like Non Fiction and all gifted children prefer non fiction to fiction! My response was that some gifted people even write fiction as well as read it. My son loves fantasy and scifi also. His focus is anything with Dragons right now.

Good luck with the Sibling rivalry!