Hi
Spin off from the awkward adult conversation - and the conversation about arrogance- what about the awkward kid statements - and your kid is the awkward one?

Have heard once myself and once DS reporting - he announced to an individual and in one case a group - that he is very smart.

I am bothered by this. Not sure if it's the adult knowledge that it's just not a good thing to do that, worries that he will alienate people this way, I want to say something to him but I know that part of it is because the kids he was talking to are good at sports and he is not.

I was thinking of saying that we don't announce stuff like that, it's like telling someone you have blonde hair, you don't need to tell people that. But I am sort of stumped about why, and he will ask why! what is the rationale for telling him to not do this - no bragging - but it's not bragging.

Thoughts? BTDT? Is this just my discomfort and it's perfectly acceptable behavior for 6? I find I cringe a lot about apparently normal 6 year old boy behavior in ND kids so maybe I am just being unreasonable and sensitive, a la those other threads?

DeHe

Looking forward to responses on this, because DD8 does it all the time. I wish I knew what to do about it.

DS9 (who has AS) has a significant arrogance/bragging problem. We emphasize a few points with him (over and over):

--there are many kinds of smartness; some people are great at knowing what to say; some people are great at reading feelings; some are great at math; some are great at spatial tasks like knitting; some are great at sports. Almost nobody is great at everything, including you; everybody has something they are great at. School smarts are NOT the only important kind of smarts.

--talking about your own strengths is indeed rude. (It is bragging, even if it's true, IMO.) It is permissible to notice the strengths, and use them in talking with your teachers or parents, but not permissible to go around talking about how wonderful you are. It can hurt people's feelings.

--we offer replacement language. It is okay to say "I love math!" but not "I am so awesome at math!" because one is a statement of enjoyment or preference, while the other is a brag.

--we actively practice offering compliments to others, to make DS learn to recognize and value their accomplishments.

--we compliment DS in areas other than his strongest ones; we make a much bigger deal of praising his effort if he achieves in an area in which he is not naturally good at things. This also makes him more aware of what others can do.

I am hoping that with practice he will mature out of this habit of thought.

DeeDee

I outlined the situation to DS8 and asked him what he thought you should say. His suggestion: "She could tell him that she knows someone on the internet whose son [that would be him :-)] is very very good at maths. And it somehow .... got out.... that he was very good at maths, and now older children keep asking him to do maths problems even when he doesn't want to." (This is now at the level of a minor irritation - it's coming from children 4ish years older than him, who are intrigued that he can do more maths than they can, not from his own classmates, who accept him - but clearly he feels he could have played his cards better earlier on, though I don't remember any very blatant incidents!)

DS adds, "Or she could tell him that it might hurt people's feelings. But since he's only 6, he might not really get that, and it might not have much effect."!

LOL Colinsmum, your DS sounds very thoughtful.

This happened to my DS too, when we subject-accelerated him-- it turned into a circus act for a while in the halls of the school.

I would put this kind of interaction into a different category than bragging. If someone asks a direct question that requests DS to show off, deciding whether and how to answer, and how to judge the intentions of the asker, is a social nuance well past my DS's capabilities then (and probably now).

DeeDee

I think that therein is the value of finding an intellectual peer group for HG+ kids. My dd13 was never one to make comments that could be construed as bragging (other than answering honestly when parents would ask stupid questions like, "my dc is reading at this level. What level are you reading at?). However, she's been distinctly not big headed about her smarts since skipping a grade.

That put her with a group that was, on average, 18 months older than she and some of her friends in grade are about two years older (combo of bd that just made the K cut for dd and the skip plus a lot of redshirting in our area). She also found at least one HG-PG friend who is 18 months older than herself in middle school and who is immensely strong in math, which is dd's weakest subject. Pre-skip, even though it was her weakest subject, she was often in the situation of being the most able and high achieving in the class in math and serving as a teacher's helper.

I'd say that a combo of talking with him about it and actively seeking peers for him so he gets a broader perspective than the big fish in small pond mentality may help.

There is a small but real chance that finding a bigger pond for a child will backfire. For instance, a child may not think much of himself/herself for being substantially smarter than their school mates. However, if you find them a select group of supposedly smart people, and they STILL find themselves to be substantially smarter than the "smart" kids... well, that could go to their heads.

Is your DS exposed to any slightly older gifted kids? Sometimes it is good for kids to see other people who are ahead of them even if they are in a different grade.

All of my kids are in a gt program (separate gt-only classrooms in a traditional school) so most of their friends are defined as gifted by their school. I recall one of my middle's kids' birthday parties. One of my middle DD's friends was bragging about being the smartest kid in the room. One of my oldest DD's friends took the kid down a few notches. She told the girl that she was being arrogant, rude and, quite frankly, stupid. She asked how you define "smart" and gave examples of other people in the room who she knew could do the same thing, if not, more. She pointed out that that this kid was in a room of gifted people (including adults!) and that the kid was making assumptions about other people without knowing anything about them. It was far more effective than anything one of the adults could have said.

I think that emphasizing the listeners point of view is the way to go. Ask them kindly how they would feel if another child approached them and said matter of fact-ly that they were a terrific skater or a super reader or will be the next Picasso? Help him walk through the feelings that might arise on the other persons part like jealousy or annoyance or boredom.
Of course, it is totally normal and will pass but I think a good way to get through it is to work on empathetic speaking/listening.

I think that is true. I was advocating more for true peers not just kids who are smart or at a lower LOG. In my dd's instance that absolutely did not come from grade level GT classes or summer programs marketed to gifted kids in her age range. It came from HG+ older kids.

I do realize that we, to some extent, just lucked out b/c she could as easily have wound up in GT classes with older kids who still appeared slow to her. There absolutely were some of those kids in her GT classes and still are. If I'm being honest, I'd have to say that the majority of the kids in her GT/honors classes still come across that way to her and, now being a teen, she can be pretty snotty about it at home. OTOH, just the one or two who were at her LOG or above (definitely above for the one girl) and older made a big difference in giving her perspective.

Well, I am with you and would definitely cringe if my children behaved that way. However, I have been told on occasion that I have gone too far the other way, but I make sure that my children knows and understands that as smart as they are, there are plenty of people smarter and more accomplished, etc. Even if they are above 99.99% of the population including all age groups, when you multiply by billions and billions, there is still a very large number of people. It also helps that being considerably older and better educated, it will be quite some time before they exceed my level. I also emphasize achievement over ability and remind them that it doesn't matter how smart they are if they don't use what they have.

I thinke age 6, particularly for a smart kid, is definitely not too young to understand. I explained to them that if you are smart, you don't brag about your intelligence because that would demonstrate a lack of social intelligence and also suggest that you were insecure in your abilities. My two younger ones seem to get that at a very young age, but then again they are socially savvy and don't have any medical issues like Aspergers. My oldest has some impulse issues even at a young age, but fortunately bragging type behavior wasn't one of his problems.

Remind me - did your DD skip around middle school? Mine hasn't yet found true peers among the 18-months-older group, and I don't know if it's an issue of the elementary being small (~70 kids per grade). Our middle school is bigger (~150 kids per grade), so I'm hoping she'll have better luck there.

Yes, and some of this is personality-driven. My DD has had that same experience-- even HG+ kids 3 years her senior are... um... hard-pressed to keep up with the microprocessor she has on board, I guess.

But she's never snotty about it; it's just not her way. If anything, she's a little insecure.

(For reference, in her graduation cohort year, there are about 300 kids. She's probably one of only two that are like her, and in the top 20%, there is definitely an 'enriched' group of higher LOG than the usual school sample.)

Yes, dd13 skipped 5th grade to start middle school, which is 6th-8th here, a year early. She's entering 10th grade in the fall. Her high school has about 500 kids per grade and her middle school had around 300 kids per grade, so I do think that the larger pool of kids improved the odds that she'd find someone who was more able than she is in at least one area.

eta: I do also have to say that I owe a big debt of gratitude to the middle school GT coordinator who went way out of her way for dd. She checked with me every year at the end of the spring semester to hand pick the right teachers for dd and also to ensure that she was placed in classes with other kids who would be good fits for peers. I know that she doesn't do this for all of the GT kids so I do feel that she went out of her way for us. She was also the one who spearheaded the push to get dd skipped in the first place.

Interesting stuff - glad to know its not uncommon - and I like the idea of giving him a script.

He is also in a gifted school, and there he doesn't say stuff like this, as far as I know, he says stuff like I am good at science and so and so is good at art or math. so he seems aware of others strengths. He is comfortable at school and does not feel odd. But even there he stands out - parents have said in his hearing that their kid think he's the smartest in the class (why do parents need to do that). And he LOVES being with older bright kids. Although the older kids - teens - especially want to do the show me thing that ColinsMum's DS reported. Plus they think he is cute and smart and just adorable. So he performs for them and they love it, not sure when he will have CM's DS's maturity to realize it wasn't the best idea. The problem sweet spot are his age mates or just slightly older but not necessarily gifted. So I think it's actually situational that he is trying to bolster himself outside his comfort zone which is school.

DeHe

We have to get to the intermediate high (9th-10th) before we get 500 per grade, but then the high school's 1000 kids in a grade.

That gave me a great idea, though - I think a request that she be in a class with someone who will give her a run for her money falls in the category of "might be honored." Certainly worth a try.

Been there My kids have both gone through major bragging phases.

It's interesting because one of the things that I've learned as I've gotten older is how much I DON'T know (I used to be really arrogant, lol). I can spend time with a person whose IQ is 40+ points lower than mine and still learn something from their perspective.

This is what I've tried to teach my kids: It doesn't matter how "smart" you are - everyone has something to contribute. Also, anyone can say they're smart, but it's acting smart by making good choices that really counts.

When they were too young to understand that, I'd simply say "bragging is rude - don't do it." When they'd ask why, I'd say "it makes other people feel bad and they won't want to be friends with you." My son seemed to accept this more readily than my daughter, who would get so caught up in the fact that her age peer didn't understand something, etc., that she didn't really hear me.

Another thing I tried (this seemed to work better with my daughter) is to say that "different kids learn things at different times." For example, "you're further ahead in math than (insert name), but she's better at swimming than you are." THIS she accepted.

I think it depends on how you view it as a parent. For instance, who gives a hoot about my IQ - the fact is, I'm terrified of heights, and of airplanes. Pilots and Flight Attendants A.M.A.Z.E me. I don't for the life of me know how they do it. How can I brag about some arbitrary cognitive test score when I turn into a blubbering mess at 100 feet off the ground? Good grief. Smarter is NOT always better. There's more to life than smart.

"Yes you could play chess on your 6th birthday, but (insert name) has a beautiful voice... can we please stop talking about Chess for a minute so we can enjoy her singing?"

That's the key I think - teach them that everyone has some kind of strength. Then it no longer comes across as bragging, but rather "sharing strengths."

I like some of these suggestions. DS9 (with AS) tends to blurt out things about how smart he is, around new people, in case they haven't had a chance to see it yet. He's been helped in that by many kids and adults in the neighborhood, who started treating him like a circus act when he was 3 -- giving him bigger and bigger books to read to them, generally being amazed out loud. Just a few days ago, he was introducing me to the mom of a kid he met at VBS, and told her that I have two children, "one a genius, me, and the other a weird little girl." I was already trying to explain his AS, since her son wanted him to come over and play, so that served as a perfect example of "he just says whatever's on his mind." Arrrgh.

I think that a boiled-down reason for not announcing "I am very smart" is that it also says "...and you are not very smart." The speaker may not have intended to make that statement, but that's not the point. The point is that this is actually a loaded statement that says more under the surface than it does on the surface. It can make others feel inadequate or lead them to believe that the speaker thinks he's better than they are. This makes them annoyed or angry, causes them to lose respect for the speaker, and it isn't nice, either.

It's normal for kids to not understand this idea. The job of adults is to help them learn the subtleties of communication and how to interact with others.

I do think K and 1 are braggy ages. It was annoying to me in DD's peer group. I don't hear it nearly as much anymore.

Interestingly, we briefly had this issue (just a little; it was minor) but now have the opposite--DD says she is stupid, dumb, etc. (I don't think she believes this. She's fishing, but also has low self-esteem.)

Have you heard of the little boy who would introduce himself on the playground by saying, loudly, "I'm Jim, I'm 5 years old, and I'm in 1st grade!". He wasn't trying to brag, but other parents had puzzled looks. We told him not to mention what grade he was in unless asked.

My daughter went through this too - but it was before the braggy phase. She was around 5 - and could do no right in her own eyes. I don't think she was fishing - I think it was related to her perfectionism.

It was really hard to deal with - I didn't know what to do. On the one hand, telling her that she's done fine "But I like your drawing! It's not awful" ...gives her positive feed back, but if you have to say it as often as we did, you wonder if it sounds fake to the child. Thank heavens she outgrew it.

We used the same strategy others have mentioned before me about how everyone has things to offer, and how some are ahead of her in other ways. In addition, we told her how declaring herself "smart" was meaningless, because nearly everyone thinks of themselves as being smart, to some degree. 85% of the people you ask will identify themselves as at least "above average," which is a mathematical impossibility. So, telling someone that you're smart conveys nothing. You might as well say, "I breathe!"

Truly intelligent people never have to advertise, I told her. Just be yourself, and people will notice. This message has been brought to you by the kid who always got freaky stares on the playground for using "big words."

It doesn't help when every adult says to them from a very young age "aren't you clever/smart etc". Drives me crazy because it has never been said that way at home.

Hi
So CollinsMum's DS's powers of prediction were apparently spot on! I dont think DS introduced himself to this new group of kids he is with for the summer saying he was smart but was clearly showing off or just reverting to his go to happy science place because he wasn't yet comfortable. So comes to find out the kids are now making him do what I call stupid DS tricks (just to DH, though) basically constantly asking him to prove it, just like ColinsMum DS said they would and DS is so tired of it, just like he said he would be (I'm starting to sound like the Carrot Seed book) it just burst out of him! I told him to tell people next that he had his turn and it's someone else's turn, or to just pick someone, it's George's turn now. He seemed to think those were good options.

So social lesson learned I think. I would be a lot more comfortable about it though if it was just the kids, saw the kids/ adults last week and the adults were of the OMG he is so smart variety, which is nice, but why say it in front of DS and in front of the other kids and do it constantly too - I will never understand that. One adult, a teacher, called him a prodigy - to him and to us - way not comfortable with that. DH said I was actiing embarrassed but it was more the, what do you expect DS to do ith this info - and really cant stand all these people telling us how smart he is, not because I am embarrassed but because it's like they think we haven't noticed it!!!! Hello, we live with him! Okay rant over.

We have taken the many words of advice here and really focused on the praising of actions - we are working on his handwriting this summer, making him write a little bit everyday so that he is not falling further behind when school starts and the other day he did it independently and did a very nice job, self correcting the spacing, which is his major issue. So I told my DH privately who then told DS how proud he was, and how pleased I had been with his effort and working without supervision etc, and DS gave a good impression of a pufferfish he was so proud of himself.

DeHe

Exactly.
Our school district has self-contained gifted elementary and middle school programs housed in larger schools, so that there are the magnet kids, and then there are the "zonies". Whether or not the magnet kids are encouraged to feel superior at home, the schools actively promote the We Are The Master Race attitude. For example, at gifted open house last fall, one of the speakers (eighth grade) assured the incoming sixth graders not to worry, that it's not required to interact with the zoned kids most of the time. Likewise, at a SAC meeting the principal commented that math team wasn't available for the school as a whole because it's not likely that there'd be a zoned kid who would qualify, after all. By the time the kids have been in this atmosphere a few years (and through no real fault of their own), some of them are absolutely insufferable.