Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional 504 review

DD9 is HG with dyslexia and dysgraphia. I sent an email to DD9's teacher asking to schedule her annual 504 review. DT responded that she will recommend that DD not continue on her 504.

When I asked on what basis, DT responded that a 3rd grader reading "The Hobbit" couldn't possibly be dyslexic. DD is reading the book at a snail's pace. We listened to the audio recording on a recent family trip. DD had a hard time understanding the narrator's accent so she decided to go back and read it on her own to fill in the blanks. I saw no reason to discourage her. DD's only accommodation for reading is allowing extra time. I'd hate to see her lose it.

When I asked about her writing accommodations, the teacher responded that DD's writing really depends on the day. DD can write at or above-grade level most days but some days it just isn't there. DT questions whether DD is dysgraphic since the "symptoms" seem to come an go. Once again, DD just gets extra time and is allowed to keyboard though she doesn't type well enough to use it. (Aside-- I plan to get her typing lessons this summer since at-home efforts haven't worked.) DT also pointed out that DD only used 5 minutes of extra time on one of the state standardized tests. I responded that the 3rd grade tests were not challenging for DD. Also, knowing that she had the extra time greatly reduced DD's anxiety and allowed her to finish in a more timely manner.

I'm worried that DD will need more time as reading and writing demands increase next year. I know the teacher that DD will have next year and am sure that she will give DD extra time. I just hate to see the documentation disappear.

Any thoughts?

Can you get an outside expert to evaluate? And, if possible, bring the expert to the meeting? We have found that's the best way to get traction with disbelieving school personnel.

DeeDee

Decisions regarding a 504 should be data driven. And, while teacher observation is often one aspect of the data, the data should also contain test results, review of the work and input from the 504 team.

You are right to be concerned. While your daughter may be slowly getting through the Hobbit, she could be dyslexic. In fact, if she has a diagnosis, the teacher should be reminded that a dyslexic is never "cured", only remediated. In most cases, even remediated dyslexics have difficult when the volume and pace of reading increases (as it does approaching MS and HS).

Additionally, a hallmark of a learning disability is inconsistency. A child with a disability should never be punished because they are "on" on certain days. When they are off - they are off. Not because they are lazy, unmotivated, or stupid. They are "off" because of their disability and it is usually very very difficult to maintain a high level of efficiency over a long period of time. Celeberate the successes, but keep in mind that the amount of energy and effort needed for these success is almost always impossible to maintain for a long period of time.

The 504 is important documentation. Looking forward - the academic load will increase and the 504 may become even more important. While it is great that she has a good teacher lined up for next year, what if something changes? You will want/need documentation to support the need for accommodations. AND as she moves to MS and HS, she will want to the document to give her the courage to self advocate.

I am assuming that the diagnosis is correct and recent. I agree with DeeDee, that sometimes an independent expert and a new evaluation may help to enlighten teachers. Maybe new testing is in order. If at all possible, I would use an independent (not school district) evaluator to get an updated report to share with the team.

Let me see if I am understanding you correctly.


This is a regular classroom teacher, yes? This teacher is challenging the validity of your child's diagnosis. That is the basis for 're-evaluation' under section 504, if I'm understanding you correctly.

Mich is spot-on. ANY changes to the 504 plan need to involve multiple sources of data, and that data needs to be interpreted by persons who are knowlegable about the meaning of the data AND that placement options/accommodations available.

The teacher's opinion here won't hold much weight, I suspect. But you might be mentally prepared to challenge her qualifications to be offering that opinion if she is too stubborn or vocal about it.


If the diagnosis hasn't changed... then it sounds like your teacher is potentially operating outside of her scope of practice here.

(Unless, of course, DT is actually an expert in your child's particular disabling conditions? No? I thought so.)



Now, with that said, the teacher may well be the expert on classroom accommodations. I'd definitely offer that as an olive branch in the review meeting, and ask for the teacher's observations in the context of accommodations. (ie-- NOT 'diagnosis')

She may be trying to help your child to develop compensatory strategies, and seeing that prolonged and excessive accommodations might get in the way of developing them if the child depends too heavily on them for too long. But also worth considering is what the load will look like in two or three years-- or even just "next year" for that matter. If you can invite next year's teacher along to the meeting, that would be ideal. Accommodations that work well in one classroom may need tweaking in another, after all.

Setting goals and evaluating how well the plan is doing in terms of making progress toward those goals is different than finding the child ineligible under the law. The teacher seems... confused... about that.

HowlerKarma, I generally agree, but I think mich's statement is also accurate, that the teacher's input can be considered when determining the extent of a current disability; the entitlement to reasonable accommodations doesn't just depend on having a condition or diagnosis, but also on the impact to a student's learning and life. The effect of the teacher's statements here seems to be to up the ante on documentation required for the next go-round. The teacher is free to make her recommendation on whether to continue accommodations, based on her perception of just how slow the OP's DD is writing lately, etc., just as the OP is free to counter that the teacher is not qualified to make a diagnosis. If serious questions are raised as to entitlement, it may be necessary to dig in to details of how LDs can cause spotty performance, etc. The teacher is throwing a monkey wrench into things for sure, but it will hopefully not derail the, um, monkey train of reasonable accommodations.

Here's a decent quick overview of the Section 504 definition of a disability:
http://learningdisabilities.about.com/od/df/g/disability504.htm

I also agree that the teacher may be motivated by good intentions, and it sounds like a great idea to have the new, positive teacher along.

I agree with this completely. My DS6 has dyspraxia (includes dysgraphia and other issues too) and one of his teachers keeps telling me that "he can write properly when he wants to" and pulls out the same assigment he did some months ago that really does look good compared to his usual writing. I tried explaining that inconsistency goes along with his disablility, but she doesn't seem to see it this way. She then suggested I read a book about "pampered child syndrome." Agggh

Thanks so much for the feed back. I've been going back to various emails that I have exchanged with the teacher in an attempt to document her impressions throughout the year. I thought it might be helpful to remind her where we've been. I also have called the principal who also is our school's 504 coordinator and plan to send an email to next year's teacher about joining the process.

The ed psych who did DD's IQ and achievement testing in first grade is not a particularly good advocate in meetings. I'm reluctant to pay her to come along since she wasn't particularly helpful last time.

I'm not sure what to do about extra testing. Quite frankly our data is weak. DD's reading evals from school all show her as at or above grade level. We had an assessment done a Lindamood Bell at the psych's recommendation and the results were all in the 50th to 80th percentile except spelling which is consistently low. These results are much lower than IQ would predict but nothing that causes the school concern.

I got the 504 because I had the diagnosis from the ed psych and last year's teacher supported it based on her classroom experiences particularly with writing.

Yes, I definitely see how a teacher can have valid input regarding the degree of functional impairment inmposed by a child's disability, particularly LD...

but in my experience, most of the time when teachers make those kinds of statements, it's ignorance of the special ed process that is really at work. The teacher may really be thinking that X provision of 504 plan is what should "not be continued."

That is, teachers may truly confuse a need for re-evaluation of accommodations within a plan with re-evaluation of eligibility itself.

Now, eligibility is based on the degree of impairment, true... but that is also based on comparison with unaffected peers, which in the case of an HG child, are not necessarily "age-mates."

You might also consider some documentation regarding the degree of impairment that YOU have seen outside of a school setting so as to provide some counterpoint to the argument that your child has developed global compensatory strategies that make a 504 plan unnecessary. Eventually, of course, that is the goal; for the child to grow into management that involves self-regulatory strategies to compensate... but at nine years old, that is probably a long way off.

A good way of handling such statements in the future is a gentle,

"Oh, I see. So you are saying that you believe that {child}'s 504 plan could use some adjustments in the accommodations? I've seen some real progress as well, this year; I'm glad to hear that you have seen that too. In the review meeting, I hope that you'll be willing to talk candidly to the team about your observations. I really look forward to hearing your ideas."

Just as a teacher cannot diagnose ADHD, a teacher cannot THROW AWAY a diagnosis of dyslexia, either.

If the teacher repeats the statement in a review meeting, I'd ask point blank if she's asserting that {documentation of disability by qualified expert} is incorrect, in his/her opinion.

If so, ask for clarification about the particulars of that assertion/opinion while being politely curious (rather than hostile).

The reason I bring that up is that the teacher's assertion that 'if X, then not Y' is simply not correct in a diagnostic sense with a LD. It is also true that one teacher's classroom environment may suit a particular child's needs much better than another... and that for a child with a disability, a "lucky" placement can easily be followed by an "unlucky" one the following year.

So the fact is, if current DT is generous with time on assessments... she may simply not see the NEED that your child still very definitely has. It would be unfortunate indeed to assume that next year's teacher will provide that same largesse.

I have at times resorted to hiring an educational advocate who's experienced with the politics in our district, in addition to our experts-- precisely because she has a different set of negotiating skills and expertise.

A 504 is a vulnerable thing-- while an IEP carries some real legal protections, a 504 is much more subject to the whim of school personnel. Unless you have something good to counter the teacher's claims, or a principal or other highly placed person who really understands writing problems (rare), you're right to anticipate a problem. Combing back through the teacher's email to you is a great idea, as well as any collected work you have that shows inconsistency of product.

If she did need 3 extra minutes on that test, that's good-- at least she didn't finish early...

DeeDee

A few things to consider:

The teacher is not qualified to question your child's diagnosis.

A child does not have to perform below grade level to qualify for protection under either IDEA or Section 504.

Your child's performance is consistent with her diagnosis and demonstrates the need to continue her accommodations, as evidenced by the following:

She is choosing reading material (The Hobbit) that is at the appropriate level for a child of her intellectual abilities, as measured by her IQ testing, and yet she is progressing through the book at a very slow pace, consistent with her dyslexia and supporting the need to continue extended time accommodations for reading.

The teacher admits that writing performance is inconsistent, and that your child is sometimes unable to perform at grade level in this area even with accommodations in place. Your child did require more time than would otherwise have been allotted for the standardized assessment. The fact that the teacher doesn't feel that it was a lot of extra time doesn't change the fact that your child could not finish in the allotted time - she is demonstrating a need for her accommodations both in class and on standardized tests.

It is worth pointing out that if her classroom performance shows that your DD is not able to perform at grade-level in writing on a consistent basis even with extended time, her disability is directly affecting her educational performance, and that means that she should qualify as a student with a disability under IDEA, not only the ADA and Section 504, and in that case she should be eligible for an IEP, not just a 504 plan.

Good luck with the meeting. I agree that it might be worth it to hire an advocate to go with you.

I didn't realize until this thread that one could have a entitlement to gifted and talented services. I think that's the disconnect. I will follow up, as this is useful and helpful to know. I still think one might encounter a problem if, say, one's child could complete above level work but more slowly, but age appropriate level work at the same speed as age peers. I think it obviously makes sense to define one's level based on ability, but I think it often doesn't work that way. Nor do I think that it would always be an easy sell that a disabled kid who could do age normal work without services / accommodations had an entitlement to continued acceleration where services would be necessary, and that seems a logical place to go for a stubborn admin, hence a danger. But what do I know? Thanks for a good thread, and good luck to the OP. (From my phone)

To clarify: the entitlement is not to gifted and talented services as such, unless your particular state has such an entitlement on their books - IDEA and 504 are pretty much silent on the topic of giftedness. The 504 and ADA entitlement is an entitlement to the same access to educational programs that would be offered to similar students who did not have disabilities (so, for example, a dyslexic student can not be barred from a gifted program that would be offered to non-dyslexic students with the same ability levels, and the school would have to provide reasonable accommodations to allow the dyslexic student to participate) and the IDEA entitlement is to a FAPE (free and appropriate public education) for students with disabilities which affect their educational performance. A FAPE is defined as one that the student can derive educational benefit from, so there is an argument to be made that acceleration is necessary part of a FAPE for a student with a disability that affects educational performance who has mastered all grade-level content.

Great idea DeeDee. If the evaluator is not a good advocate, I would consider bringing a parent advocate (which is often much less expensive) to the meeting. A good advocate can understands the testing, law, group dynamics and politics and can be a great resource at these meetings. Often her or she can help level the playing field a bit.

I'm not sure if you realize, but there have been some favorable changes in 504 as it relates to qualifying for accommodations. This article may be helpful (it was for me!)http://www.ncld.org/on-capitol-hill/federal-laws-aamp-ld/adaaa-a-section-504/section-504-in-2009

aculady, yep, that's my understanding-- an argument could be made, and I'm sure it's one that we would all agree with. I'm just not sure it would always win. It would be along the same lines as the arguments we make that our children are due an education that helps them learn, like all children should have, but the no-child-left-behind-or-forward focus and thinking can be hard to overcome. I remain unconvinced that gifted disabled kids are entitled to any better education than gifted non-disabled kids. But again, I am shooting a bit from the hip here (despite being a good guesser), and I've put this on my list of things to dig into when I get some time.

Luckily the OP seems to be on firm ground due to the continued need for extra time at least on the standardized testing for her grade, although I think things might get a bit shaky against strong resistance if she pushes the "appropriate level for a child of her intellectual abilities" at the same time as she demands extra time for reading. A lot of third graders would read "The Hobbit" slowly (is what a benighted administrator or teacher might say, though we believe that's not the proper measure).

Be sure to check Wrightslaw for a few tips on dealing with this kind of thinking (related to 2E and qualification for IEP/504).

The single best example of how this works under the law is Lillie/Felton, an OSEP policy letter:

Illinois Due Process decisions


There is another 2007 reference to the same issue in that link.


In my own experience, the surest way to get what your child needs and to not get steamrolled or pushed aside by administrators and teachers (even well-meaning ones) is to know your child's rights under the law.

One of the hardest things that I had to learn to deal with was that people seemed to think I was lying about my son's disabilities (dyspraxia, dysgraphia, hypotonia, sensory issues) because he could achieve at a higher level academically than the average kid his age without disabilities, could write well enough on a short writing test at age 7 that I was told his writing was low normal (they didn't test long enough for the disability to show up), they had never heard of hypotonia and he looked normal, therefore he could not have it, he could not have sensory issues because he didn't have any behavioral issues, although they were more than willing to accept that he might have Asperger's, something he has never been diagnosed with because he read at such an early age, could memorize faster than most people, and always talked more like an adult.

My son's disabilities are not consistent. We homeschool around this inconsistency, as well as the pain from migraines and fatigue and endurance issues. I can tell when he is having an off day either from headaches or fatigue or whatever because he will still at age 12 occasionally write a number backwards. I see him do something like this maybe once every three or four months. It is a glitch that I am sure would cause embarrassment if he were in our public school. He will tell you that it isn't because he doesn't know how to write the number, it is just a glitch that happens and we still don't know how to explain this. When he does math, he feels that for him, it only makes sense to write as little as possible and do as much of the problem mentally as he can because of the dysgraphia. It makes sense to me. It also makes sense to me to take a break on days when his pain or something else is causing enough distraction that he isn't learning as well as he should. He more than makes up for it on days when he is doing well and his self esteem is left intact, along with the knowledge that he really is a smart kid with disabilities that he can compensate for.

When he was tested by a neuropsychologist at age 11 with a migraine and fatigue, his disabilities showed up and the neuropsychologist said if he went back to public school he would need an IEP for his writing issues and maybe he would if he were in a class taught by a strict color in the lines teacher, but luckily his writing teacher believes that what is important is the final typed product so bad handwriting is not really a problem.

My son's dysgraphia also causes trouble with writing out math problems quickly. When he is allowed to use mental math and not forced to show his work he does very well in math. He has had no problems with algebra or word problems as long as I let him do it his way. His mental math ability is so much better than mine because of his writing disability.

This year at age 12 he took his first class requiring a lot of writing and he didn't even tell his teacher about the dysgraphia. He is writing well enough (by typing his assignments) that he is making A's on everything and he one of the youngest kids in the class of 7th - 9th graders. He had no IEP or 504, just an understanding teacher with common sense.

Maybe, in addition to testing kids for learning disabilities, they should test the teachers for their ability to incorporate common sense in their teaching methods.