Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Expressive Language Disorder?

Hi all
Was just reading about ELD on another thread and had a few questions.

If a child does have ELD does this show up in a cognitive evaluation? That is, would there be a discrepancy between the Verbal and Non-verbal portions of the IQ test?

Does ELD present differently in gifted kids because they can mask it or compensate well?

I just wonder about my eldest, DS8......

Please feel free to ask any questions that would help in your giving advice or thoughts, I just don't want to make this post too long with lots of info.

Cheers
abra

Hi abracadabra,
It has been my experience that expressive language disorders may not be picked up in normative testing - both psycho educational as well as speech and language, unless the evaluator is savvy and willing to comment on the child's approach to various tests and qualitative assessments. I would agree that certain students can compensate or mask - or that many of the tests are just not able to measure some of the nuances of expressive language.

You ask whether or not there might be a discrepancy between the VCI and PRI on the WISC. My son's VCI scores always test higher than PRI - on one administration more than 25 points, yet he has expressive language weaknesses. So, I would say that while a much higher PRI might raise certain red flags, the WISC alone cannot test for the absence or presence of ELD. Within the overall test battery, the evaluator might use tests that could spot word retrieval issues, organizational issue, written expression and other skills that often are a part of ELD. But, generally a SLP (speech and language pathologist) would conduct more sensitive measures of language processing and expressive language.

What kinds of troubles do you see? Has your child been evaluated recently? Are there known LD's that might also be present?

The book, Childhood Speech, Language and Listening Problems by Patricia McAleer Hamaguchi is a good resource for understanding speech and language issues.

I have not had my son tested yet; and I think that you are asking if a more verbal test would give him a lower score. I would say yes.

If you are just trying to find out is your child has ELD, I second mich in getting an SLP to evaluate him. ELD is hard to hide. You pretty much know that it is there, in our case. My DS is still 2 academic grade levels above where he should be; but in a verbal test, a tester may get a lot of "I don't knows" from him because he can't get to the place in his brain where that word is, even if he knows it. Feel free to give more info.:)

Thanks Mich and Mum0405 for your replies.

My DS was tested on the SB-V so I'm not familiar with the WISC.
His cognitive profile on the SB-V was extremely even (all subtests at or near celings) with very little between the Verbal and Non-verbal, so clearly that didn't tell us anything except that he's smart!

Reasons I think something may be going on?
Hard to put my finger on! He's our eldest so some of this is hindsight. His language acquisition was different to our other two children but we only noticed this after we'd had the other two. DS8 had a massive single word vocab before he started putting words togther much at all(around age 2). At the time this didn't seem "delayed". We'd taught him baby signing and he could communicate fine so it wasn't an issue. It was only when we had our next child (DS6) and I thought he was delayed because he seemed to have comparatively few words, but then started talking in complex sentences very quickly (as did No3, DD4)at aroud 12-18 months.

Now at 8, he substitutes "you know" and "thingy" with a shrug and a look to me instead of actually naming and explaining things.
He seems to frustrate his teacher at school because he's bad at "self-reflection" and reacts badly to situations by getting frustrated instead of "using his words".
I actually did a google search on CAPD and verbal expression" before I read your thread, because it ocurred to me that he's actually having trouble getting out what's in his head.

I'm going to try and find a Speech Therapist experienced with Gifted Kids and have him evaluated, as the problem is that he probably seems pretty normal for a regular 8yr old but he's not a regular 8yr old.

Like your DS Mom0405, academically he's doing fine, having been accelerated but I just feel there's something going on (oh, I forgot to mention that getting him to write is getting blood out of a stone!).
Cheers
abra

Good luck in finding an SLP.

Is it the actual holding a pencil and writing for a long time that is frustrating for him, or getting his thoughts on paper. Does typing help him?

Oh he can hold a pen and pencil just fine. He's a very gifted artist and there's no problem with his fine motor skills. It's just the writing down of his ideas that is so torturous!

If there is a place that does comprehensive testing for learning disabilities, I'd recommend that. I have a theory that experts tend to see the problem they're an expert in, even if some other diagnosis (or none!) would fit better. If all you have is a hammer, the whole world starts looking a lot like a nail...

We found a good center out of a local children's hospital that provides the full battery of testing by a team of experts. Some of it is even covered by insurance.

We started with a developmental pediatrician and then saw a language pathologist. There are several other appointments that I need to make with other experts. Together we should arrive at some sort of comprehensive diagnosis, I think.

Abracadabra,

As I understand it, holding a pencil for writing language and using one for art are really different skills. (Think "drawing" vs. "writing"-- if you're drawing letters instead of writing them, you'll be slower.) Some kids who "draw" their letters have lovely handwriting but still are identified as having dysgraphia because the hand-language connection isn't easy for them.

Best,
DeeDee

Wow DeeDee, that is a really interesting point. DS8 has beautiful handwriting but is painfully slow. Maybe he is actually "drawing" his letters.
We know he is a REALLY visual spatial kid and thinks in pictures and sees things in 3D in his head etc so maybe there's a mix of things.
He was reasonably on track learning to read but it then turned into a torturous process for a couple of years with little gain (we hadn't had him tested at this point) but then just as we started to really worry within a week he was reading chapter books like it all just clicked into place.
It is SO tricky to figure out what is going on sometimes.
The other thing with his writing is that he CAN do it, and has done it by choice and when he had to (sitting our Australian National benchmark testing).
Cheers
abra

I agree that drawing and handwriting are two different things, and I've seen great artists that cannot automatically recall and form letters. But writing is also more than just the handwriting, and a child with ELD may have trouble organizing his or her thoughts, recalling specific language and writing it down, just as they may have similar difficulties speaking the thoughts aloud. Some people with ELD actually find it easier to write - because if given ample time, they are able to take the time to organize, find the words and get them down on paper. For others, the act of writing is even more torturous. My son for example has trouble with the grapho-motor aspect, spelling as well as organization, retrieval and precision, so he prefers speaking to writing - even with the time constraints.

The issues you describe with word retrieval (explaining rather than naming ex. that temperature taking thing for thermometer, imprecise language ex thingy, stuff, and frustration) seem to indicate possible difficulties. If he continues to feel frustrated and if it impacts his participation and learning, I do think you would be wise to evaluate. Best of luck!