Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional lack of motivation and/or attention problems?

Hello,

I've posted before about my DS10 who has a spiky WISC IV profile (VCI142,PRI113,WMI109,PSI100) who was deemed NVLD by the tester, and who definitely has some attention issues and a strong dislike of school.

Well, I had convinced myself to talk to his pediatrician at his upcoming annual appointment about his attention issues at school (skipping parts of questions, not showing work when asked, etc) and home (getting "lost" during daily life activities) and whether she thought ADHD medication could help. He also has mood issues (pessimistic, often seems lethargic) and I wondered if ADHD medication would help this as well.

So I tried an experiment. I told him he could have an extra hour of computer time for every A-grade he brought home on a test (he's mostly getting Bs due to "careless" type errors and insists that grades are not important and that he doesn't care about his marks at all). He has brought home 4 tests since then, all A's, no forgotton questions, all work shown when asked for.

Would the added "computer motivation" be enough for a child with an attention problem to pull himself together for a test? Is not having internal motivation part of ADHD? I had been thinking that his "not caring" attitude was a way of covering up feeling inadequate because he wasn't able to show his understanding on tests. But maybe I'm off base. . .

He is at a regular school this year (switched from Montessori) and I know he finds much of the work boring, but *really* does not want to be given any extra challenge. I suggested that maybe for English class (he goes to school in French and in English they are learning the names of animals, whereas he can read novels in English) I could ask that he have different work, since he had a note come home that he was "disruptive" in this class. This sounded like a major punishment to him (no, please Mom, I promise not to disrupt the class, please don't talk to my teacher about giving me different work . . . )

Any advice welcome.

My DD7 is very similar and so I will be watching this thread to see what kind of advice you get!!! My gut reaction regarding the attention issue is that 'computer motivation' would not be enough motivation for a child with ADHD. Others with more experience in this area will be able to provide greater insight. Even for my undiagnosed DD, extra computer time would not be enough to change her behaviour so dramatically. The other thing I wonder is, how much adjustment time is needed for a student to switch from a Montessori school to the 'regular' school system? I would think that this is a really big jump in approach to learning. Could this factor in at all?

A.

If the trouble is ADHD, keep in mind it is not a "behavior" issue, but a neurological one. So, not a willful act of not paying attention, showing work, sustaining a work ethic, but a neurological difference that hampers his ability to do these things. Goals and rewards can help - but as eema suggests, they need to be fairly specific and shorter term. You might want to try a reward for showing his work on 5 consecutive days of math homework (and reminders before he starts each day) rather than a reward for an A in math. It's important that the reward be fairly immediate.

annalissa raises a good point about the transition from Montessori to a traditional educational model. Be sure that he fully understands the routines, expectations and has the skills to carry out the expectations.

I do think that kids that struggle will adopt an "I don't care" persona to cover up for their distress. I truly believe that almost every child wants to be successful - and when they start to detach themselves, there is a reason.

Yes, that is my feeling too. I am trying to figure out where his "I don't care" is coming from.

The fact that he was able to do very well on a couple of tests once he had the external motivation of extra computer time made me start to wonder if the "I don't care" was coming from somewhere else than struggling with attention issues.

Part of it might be the switch from Montessori, where he had no tests and no grades. Their philosophy is that the learning is important, not the grade on an exam. DS actually said this to me almost word for word recently when I pointed out that he knew 100% of the math on the test, but lost many points for not "showing his work" and writing complete answers. He doesn't seem particulary happy to bring home an A paper (except if it means more computer time!), and is also not really dissapointed if he brings home a C. I have to say almost the only time I have seen him actually proud of an achievement was when he won a prize in a short story contest put on by the public library last year.

Two other reasons I can think of for the "I don't care" attitude from conversations I have had with him are: (1) boredom and (2) thinking that is is not "cool" to want to do well at school.

I have been trying to help him understand that working hard now will allow him to go to a good school with interesting classes later, and hopefully get a job that he enjoys after that. Is he too young for this kind of talk? He doesn't seem to be able to relate to this line of discussion at all. I don't know how to convince him that good work habits and doing well in school are important.

DD11 is only just now 'seeing' the payoff for doing well grade-wise.

Now, she's always been fairly motivated to bring home honor roll grades. But it's only this year that she has a sense of urgency to differentiate an A from, say, a B... and to connect the fact that bombing a midterm will make the latter more likely than the former.

She also is starting to understand larger goals-- and that there is a self-determined path in the distance.

I was so incredibly relieved when she finally got a taste of that in selecting high school coursework. At least she got a chance to really choose some electives, etc.

I pointed out that college will be like that, too.

Anyway. Just mentioning that, depending upon maturity and personality, I think that it's probably fine to begin mentioning that kind of long-term view of things to kids when they are 8-10. Well, EG+ kids, anyway. As long as it doesn't seem to cause them undue stress and fuel perfectionism that is UNHEALTHY. DD has never met a challenge that she couldn't meet, so that wasn't an issue. It gave her much-needed hope while she was slogging through middle school requirements that were just plain drudgery.

What has been an issue (and continues to be one) is that her basic level of maturity sometimes gets in the way of her ability to 'see' the relative importance of all of the little things-- and how those come together to give her the "big" things (like those stellar report cards). What's one lousy week at school, right? Except that it's 1/16th of a semester. That's the part that is still missing.

What can I say-- she's eleven. <shrug>



ETA: I think your second concern is quite a valid one, too, however. I see that my DD tries so hard to be "like" her peers. She really studies media portrayals of adolescents, which naturally gives her some pretty skewed attitudes about "normal" and acceptable behavior by OUR standards. "Hating" school is one of those things. She sometimes says that-- but when you probe, even minimally, you find out in a hurry that she definitely doesn't really mean what she's saying. She's just trying to buy herself more street cred with peers that are significantly older than she is, I think.

"I don't care" can also be shorthand for existential depression, of course... or part of the fitting in and being cool with angsty-adolescent classmates, if you happen to be several years younger than most of them. Was your DS particularly happy/unhappy with his previous placement? What is his general attitude about the change in placement?

I have noticed that talking about the long term can make him anxious. He had tears in his eyes the other night and said to me that he didn't see the point of life if he has to work hard at elementary school, then keep going to school and work hard, and then spend his life working hard at a job. I tried to tell him that the further he goes in school, the more he can choose his subjects, and that hopefully he can find a job that he likes enough that it doesn't feel like "work". He has also said to me that he is worried that he will become a homeless person (which I have never mentioned to him at all, execpt to answer his questions when we see homeless people on the street).

I started thinking yesterday that maybe "I don't care" is the flip side of perfectionism. He was a real perfectionist when he was younger (ripping up drawings because they weren't "good enough", etc) but looking at his current work habits and effort, I certainly wouldn't call him a perfectionist now. I guess giving up before you start is a good way to avoid failure. I'm trying hard to work on his self-esteem (using the Nurtured Heart Approach that I read about here among other things).

As for the new school placement, its hard to know how he feels. I think its much for the best. He had been at Montessori since the age of 3, and it was time for a change. It worked well for him until grade 4 (where he had a teacher who didn't "get" him and didn't seem able to keep the class in control, and a complete loss of motivation on his part). The more structured approach of traditional school is good (he knows what he needs to do, and mostly does what he is told). He was not happy at the Montessori, seemed to be constantly in trouble, and was glad to change. However, he tells me he isn't happy where he is now either. So who knows. Friends are so important at this age -- he had a few good friends at his former school, and although he seems to get along OK with everyone at the new school, he hasn't wanted to invite any of them over yet. He will only have one more year before he starts a new school (secondary school starts in grade 7 here) so I'm not sure its worth considering another change before then.

We've had my son in a Montessori school for 3 years and are switching to the public school. As you well know, Montessori has good and bad points. You kind of "do your own thing" as deeply as you want.
That is great but when it's time to do something boring or something you aren't good at (boring math problems, etc), I think that Montessori kids may have trouble dealing with that. Maybe some of what you are seeing is that.
I would guess that really ADHD kids may not be able to pull themselves together as quickly as your son did. Maybe he is bored and a little disorganized, like so many 10 year olds are at this age.
I know in the psychology literature, if you pay people to do something, they do it, but in the end, they are less committed to doing the task than if they internalize the drive to do it.

My heart goes out to you Verona, I have had this exact conversation with my DD. I don't know the answer, but I know it is both alarming and heartbreaking to hear this from your child.

My DDs situation got worse over time and she eventually became quite depressed. She is coming out of the depression now (thank God!) and looking back, I believe a lot of it had to do with the hopelessness she felt due to a very bad educational fit and no real intellectual peers. Trying to see it through her eyes, when everyone is telling you that you have to work hard to become good at doing what you consider mindless/pointless busywork, in order to prepare for a lifetime of doing it in the professional world, it all does seem a little pointless, especially if the "rewards" are not anything that you actually value.

I have to say that academic summer camp for gifted students was a lifeline for us: one week a year with true intellectual peers and engaged teachers who were thrilled to teach enthusiastic learners with no tests or grades, just pure blissful learning...at least this allowed my DD to realize that maybe there is something better out there somewhere and to give her hope for a better future than the one that comes to mind every time a grown up explains why doing busy work now is so important.

My hope is that the new and far more appropriate educational setting along with access to true peers will be a complete solution for my DD, but we decided to get her tested just in case. We are in the middle of Psycho educational testing (a bit late in the game) just to see if there is something that is causing the busywork to be more difficult and treacherous for my DD than the average child (other than her ability/tendeny to look at the status quo and question it- lol).

Okay, here's what my experience has shown me:

Dd (13yo) has a certain amount of coping skills/resources to expend throughout the day when it comes to tasks like remembering homework, not ending up in the shower for forty-five minutes, whatever...attention stuff. She can, sufficiently motivated (and yes, I hold electronics hostage too), hold it together enough to do these things unmedicated. It comes at a cost, though-- eventually she runs out of mental energy and turns into a complete flitterhead, and a cranky one at that.

She, unfortunately, has had adverse reactions to the ADHD meds we've tried so far. We're giving it one more go and if the last one doesn't work, she's just going to have to go through life unmedicated. To that end we're working hard on coping skills and strategies to get her through the end of middle school and through high school and college. I'm hoping it works, but it's too early to tell yet. I hope so, because I don't have real high hopes for the med, and I don't want her living in my basement when she's forty.

I will add that fourth and seventh grades seem like the time when a lot of 2E kids fall apart, at least judging by the discussions I've had with other parents (our own experience mirrors this, fwiw). SO if your own is in one of those two years, take heart-- it probably won't get worse next year.

Wow, I never put it together about the 45 minute showers being an ADHD thing! My DD has used a kitchen timer when taking showers, that worked really well for her (and us).

Eldertree, I think a life without meds may not be so bad...After reading that the brain keeps developing til age 26 (particularly the part that involves executive function - planning, organization, time management etc), I am very hopeful that with a little bit of understanding, some diet modifications and some support with coping strategies through college, most of these issues will resolve themselves as the EFs develop. We may end up trying the meds as a last resort but I am really hoping to avoid it.

We don't even have a basement so that's not an option for DD lol!!! Actually, when I was a teen, my mom told me not to stress or worry, that I could just live in a trailer on her property if I couldn't find my way in the world. The fear of that scenario kicked my b*t into high gear!!!!

HAdn't heard that about executive functioning developing well into the twenties. Good to know! Even if it is far too late for my husband...

Hey, those are rough adjustment years even without any ADD/ADHD issues.

4th/5th is when many gifted kids experience a total... hmmm.... not sure what to call it. "Identity crisis" seems pretty strong. But anyway, about age 9-10, they seem to go through this phase where, man... if their HEADS weren't attached... well, you know.


Then in middle school, about age 11-13, they start riding that hormonal/social roller-coaster from Hades.

Good times.

_____________________________

As far as coping strategies go, I have known quite a few ADD/ADHD collegians that were unmedicated and relied on other coping strategies/scaffolding to help them. That can definitely work. It basically means establishing an iron-clad routine, and then "hanging" additional responsibilities/commitments from that routine in time/space. That way you can keep track of everything, have temporal/spatial "checkpoints" so that essentials don't get forgotten, etc.

It's roughly the equivalent of cultured OCD-- but productive, if that makes sense. ("I closed the front door behind me as I came inside, so now I need to put my keys on the hook and check to make sure I locked the door. Because I closed the front door, so I have to do those other things now-- they belong together.")

And yes to executive function development continuing into young adulthood! Age 24-26 is about where that peaks for most people. It always tickled me no end when I'd meet those super-flakey freshman as juniors and seniors again, and realize that they had somehow become responsible young adults in the interim. It was like alchemy.

Thanks Nik. I feel better just knowing that other kids have these thoughts too.

And thanks to everyone who posted on this thread -- its really helpful to hear about others' experiences.

Understanding DS is still a work in progress, but I do feel I'm learning!

In the short run, especially, a higher value reinforcer can certainly change behavior in a kid with ADHD. There is even a study that shows that when the 'time to reward' is short, ADHD kids will perform as well on tasks as other kids, and they fall apart when the 'time to reward' is long.

I see ADHD as all about 'harnessing focus.' It's hard work, and makes sense to me that a kid would be willing to work extra hard for an extra good reward. What I don't know is how well a child with ADHD would get practiced at harnessing focus and and lower the amount of sheer will power. To me ADHD looks like a 'Dyspraxia' of harnessing focus. Of course all kids improve with practice, and some kids with ADHD would probably 'get the knack' and not have to put such a heroic effort in, while other kids wouldn't really progress fast enough that the increasing demands of progressing up the educational ladder would always require heroic effort.

-said the blind man reporting on the elephant
((wink))
Grinity

Never to late - see Flylady thread! I have personal proof of this.

DS14 tried this one. I told him that while it may be true that he knew the Math itself, his grade was a reflection of how well he was able to understand and execute the teacher's directions, and that in itself is a key school skill that needs time to develop. I think the NHA is a good way to get kids to take an interest in grades provided that the fit is reasonable. If the work being done in his classroom is just miles below his readiness level, then it's up to the parents to make something change.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Hi Grinity.

Thanks for your comments. I like the "dyspraxia of harnessing focus" description. It fits in with Eldertree's comment that her DD has a certain amount of energy for "paying attention" and once it is used up, she can become cranky and unfocussed. I see this with my DS too. I am still going to talk to the pediatrician about medication, or if she's not convinced, maybe further testing for ADHD.

The tangible rewards (extra screen time) plus the Nurtured Heart Approach are helping. I also think that for him success breeds success -- he's much more willing to "make the heroic effort" if he feels that he is doing well.

As to your other comment, I don't know what his "readiness level" is -- it seems to be an ever moving target.

For math, he excels in logic and "word problems", but he is less adept with some of the spatial concepts (volumes, fractions, etc). He also needs to work on grammar (lots of noun and verb accords in written French!). He has certainly not "mastered" the grade 5 curriculum, so I wouldn't see acceleration as a solution. There is no gifted programming where we live.

The thing that doesn't work for him at school is that it seems to be almost all boring, drill-type activities, and very little real thinking. And I'm sad to say that the grade 6 curriculum looks very similar to grade 5. Highschool here starts in grade 7, so I'm hoping that the work gets more interesting then.

I'm trying to give him some "thinking" outside school hours but its hard when we are already busy with the "boring" homework and all the other daily life stuff.

How much repeat of 5th grade will there be in 6th grade? Maybe your standard of mastery isn't realistic? Maybe the school sees it as a 'process?' to be repeated over and over?

It hard because the elementary school years are all about 'can you do this? how about this?' - abstract thinking is believed to start about 6th/7th grade - and slowly at that.

Is there a way to compact the curriculum, so he can fulfill the requirements quickly and have more time for 'independent study?'

Are there alternative schools available?
Is homeschooling a possibility? Online schooling at home? Online schooling at school?

Tests like MAP are great for seeing what his true readiness level is. Try signing up as a homeschooler.

Good luck,
Grinity

I think you have to 'over-rule' him on this one. Meet in secret if possible, but the teacher needs to be cued that he's in the wrong classroom during that hour. If you need to give DS notice that you have an independent perspective and will be talking to the teacher, that's fine too - you'll get a chance to praise his ability to handle his strong feeling while he has a tantrum but doesn't X,Y or Z.
g

Most people with ADHD have alterations in the dopamine and norepinephrine systems of the brain. Dopamine, in addition to being involved in attention, is deeply involved in the reward system of the brain. Anticipation of imminent rewards, especially novel rewards and high-value rewards, increases dopamine temporarily (which actually increases the ability to pay attention), and there is a dopamine surge with the receipt of the reward. The dopamine system habituates very quickly, though.

English class is only 1 hour about once a week, so I thought maybe it wasn't worth the fight for this one.

I have not ever talked to his primary teacher (who teaches everything but drama, phys. ed and English) about DS having any special educational needs. The school did us a favour by taking DS in mid-October (we removed him from Montessori at short notice 6 weeks into the year). Plus, it's very hard to explain what he needs (smart but slow, perceptive but inattentive?). I don't even really know what he needs.

I'm not sure what, if anything, his teacher could do to help for the remainder of this year. Although she has good points (esp. regarding fair and consistent discipline) she doesn't seem like the kind of person to come up with creative solutions. Plus, DS hasn't given any "proof" of needing anything special, and doesn't *want* anything special, and she has some kids who are really struggling to keep up. There are "enrichment" problems on the work plan, but they look like just more of the same. DS has no interest in doing them either.

I'm thinking of other options for next year, but don't see too many possibilities.

Other schools: none any better that I know of. There might be some in English, but we want him to continue in the French program.

Homeschooling/online schooling: maybe, DH's work is in flux right now, but DS would likely be alone most of the day, which isn't ideal. He needs the social side of school.I know a homeschooling mom and wondered about asking if she wanted another student! However, not at all sure she'd be interested.

Compressed cirriculum: not sure what this would mean if he stays at his current school. He doesn't work "faster" than others but needs less repetition, so I ask that he do a shorter work plan and then independent projects? He would hate this, as he would stand out as "different". If he was at home, I could certainly compress the grade 6 cirriculum into a couple of months.

Ideas?

PS I'm not familiar with MAP testing, so I just googled it and got information about finding out the efficiency of my shower and toilet!

Ha! Try googling "NWEA MAP" or "Measures of Academic Progress."

Worth asking for sure!
Grinity

Compressed curriculm - short definition is:
Pretest every unit as it comes up - if score is 80% to 95%, spend 5 minutes going over the wrong answers and check if there is a skill that needs to be practiced or an idea to impart, then go to independent study.
If score is under 80%, do that unit with the class. If the score is over 95% move on to next unit, or do Independent study during classtime.
And some kids would be fine with this, while others, like yours and mine, would hate all the fuss. The teachers usually aren't happy with the extra work either - which leads us back to the idea of gradeskip even if DS would have to scramble over a very gaps. Afterall, once the gaps are identified, how long would it take you to help him fill them in privately? Since the grades one gets in 6th grade don't go on the college application, who cares if he gets a few Bs or even a C in the beginning?

For some kids, being 'under the radar' is the most important thing - even though gradeskipping looks 'very public' and it is for a week or two, it's the fastest path back under the radar for a kid who really needs more that what they are currently getting.

See?
G

We ran into this same problem just before DS's midyear skip from 5th into 6th. Teacher thought he was lazy and ungrateful because he wasn't 'lapping up' the 'extra challenge' problems she left out for the academically strong kids. Problem was that from my son's perspective the 'extra challenge' problems were 'old and boring' even though they were completely appropriate for the other strong learners in his classroom.

It's frustrating, but I took my son's lack of excitement with school as a sign that he had just 'given up' on academics being nurturing.

((shrugs and more shrugs))
Grinity

Thanks for all these thoughts Grinity.

Although I see the appeal, in our particular situation, I don't think grade skipping is going to work. To be accepted in the higher achieving grade 7 programs, the school looks at the grade 5 report card (thus my "high value rewards" for As) and a standardized test on the grade 5 curriculum, given near the beginning of grade 6.

DH's take on this is that we make DS suffer through the drill and mechanics of grade 5, make sure he gets good grades, and ensure that he is well prepared for the test next autumn. We have become kind of hyper-focussed on grade 5 -- I guess that's why I said earlier that he "hasn't mastered the grade 5 curriculum." It's not just DS who is suffering through grade 5.

So grade 6 becomes sort of a fill in year before he hopefully is accepted in a challenging school for 7th. This would be the year where I could see doing something more unconventional like homeschooling or partial schooling. I mentioned grade skipping to DS once, and he was all for it, because he thought it would mean that he would "get a year off"!! Maybe grade 6 could be that year . . .

The other thing about grade skipping, which his very supportive grade 1-3 teacher said to us during grade 2, is that even if it's clear that he is academically ready, his emotional maturity and organization might not be there.

We started reading Animal Farm in French together, and he and DH have been doing some video game programming, so that's all good. Both ideas came from this group too!

Love it! Perhaps your whole family could travel around the world during 6th or have some other adventure. I love your son's definition of 'grade skipping' sounds like it's just right for him.

Ok - so use that Nurtured Heart Approach for all you've got and get him through the next few months with lots of parental enrichment. Strangest set up I've ever heard of, but you work with what you've got!

Smiles,
Grinity

Another possibility I thought of yesterday was to have him go from grade 5 this year directly into grade 7 at his former Montessori school. This would be a different teacher from the 4-6 teacher that didn't "get" him, would be a more challenging cirriculum, and would include neat things like a one week canoe trip and learning to cook. Also, there would only be about 5 other kids in the group, since the junior high program in French is just starting out there. After grade 7 in the "unconventional" school, I'd think about having him do grade 7 again in the very academic school I was originally planning on for 7th.

Is this too wierd -- no grade 6 and two years of grade 7?

Not sure if the Montessori would consider putting him directly in 7th, but I think I could make a good argument for it at least and see what they say.

To hedge your bets there, I'd make an attempt to have them KEEP him a 6th grader on paper-- just have him PLACED in the 7th grade curriculum.


That way, there won't be any problems repeating the more-traditional 7th grade curriculum in the other academic setting later, as there might be if he has records indicating completion of 7th.