Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional lack of motivation and/or attention problems?

Hello,

I've posted before about my DS10 who has a spiky WISC IV profile (VCI142,PRI113,WMI109,PSI100) who was deemed NVLD by the tester, and who definitely has some attention issues and a strong dislike of school.

Well, I had convinced myself to talk to his pediatrician at his upcoming annual appointment about his attention issues at school (skipping parts of questions, not showing work when asked, etc) and home (getting "lost" during daily life activities) and whether she thought ADHD medication could help. He also has mood issues (pessimistic, often seems lethargic) and I wondered if ADHD medication would help this as well.

So I tried an experiment. I told him he could have an extra hour of computer time for every A-grade he brought home on a test (he's mostly getting Bs due to "careless" type errors and insists that grades are not important and that he doesn't care about his marks at all). He has brought home 4 tests since then, all A's, no forgotton questions, all work shown when asked for.

Would the added "computer motivation" be enough for a child with an attention problem to pull himself together for a test? Is not having internal motivation part of ADHD? I had been thinking that his "not caring" attitude was a way of covering up feeling inadequate because he wasn't able to show his understanding on tests. But maybe I'm off base. . .

He is at a regular school this year (switched from Montessori) and I know he finds much of the work boring, but *really* does not want to be given any extra challenge. I suggested that maybe for English class (he goes to school in French and in English they are learning the names of animals, whereas he can read novels in English) I could ask that he have different work, since he had a note come home that he was "disruptive" in this class. This sounded like a major punishment to him (no, please Mom, I promise not to disrupt the class, please don't talk to my teacher about giving me different work . . . )

Any advice welcome.

My DD7 is very similar and so I will be watching this thread to see what kind of advice you get!!! My gut reaction regarding the attention issue is that 'computer motivation' would not be enough motivation for a child with ADHD. Others with more experience in this area will be able to provide greater insight. Even for my undiagnosed DD, extra computer time would not be enough to change her behaviour so dramatically. The other thing I wonder is, how much adjustment time is needed for a student to switch from a Montessori school to the 'regular' school system? I would think that this is a really big jump in approach to learning. Could this factor in at all?

A.

If the trouble is ADHD, keep in mind it is not a "behavior" issue, but a neurological one. So, not a willful act of not paying attention, showing work, sustaining a work ethic, but a neurological difference that hampers his ability to do these things. Goals and rewards can help - but as eema suggests, they need to be fairly specific and shorter term. You might want to try a reward for showing his work on 5 consecutive days of math homework (and reminders before he starts each day) rather than a reward for an A in math. It's important that the reward be fairly immediate.

annalissa raises a good point about the transition from Montessori to a traditional educational model. Be sure that he fully understands the routines, expectations and has the skills to carry out the expectations.

I do think that kids that struggle will adopt an "I don't care" persona to cover up for their distress. I truly believe that almost every child wants to be successful - and when they start to detach themselves, there is a reason.

Yes, that is my feeling too. I am trying to figure out where his "I don't care" is coming from.

The fact that he was able to do very well on a couple of tests once he had the external motivation of extra computer time made me start to wonder if the "I don't care" was coming from somewhere else than struggling with attention issues.

Part of it might be the switch from Montessori, where he had no tests and no grades. Their philosophy is that the learning is important, not the grade on an exam. DS actually said this to me almost word for word recently when I pointed out that he knew 100% of the math on the test, but lost many points for not "showing his work" and writing complete answers. He doesn't seem particulary happy to bring home an A paper (except if it means more computer time!), and is also not really dissapointed if he brings home a C. I have to say almost the only time I have seen him actually proud of an achievement was when he won a prize in a short story contest put on by the public library last year.

Two other reasons I can think of for the "I don't care" attitude from conversations I have had with him are: (1) boredom and (2) thinking that is is not "cool" to want to do well at school.

I have been trying to help him understand that working hard now will allow him to go to a good school with interesting classes later, and hopefully get a job that he enjoys after that. Is he too young for this kind of talk? He doesn't seem to be able to relate to this line of discussion at all. I don't know how to convince him that good work habits and doing well in school are important.

DD11 is only just now 'seeing' the payoff for doing well grade-wise.

Now, she's always been fairly motivated to bring home honor roll grades. But it's only this year that she has a sense of urgency to differentiate an A from, say, a B... and to connect the fact that bombing a midterm will make the latter more likely than the former.

She also is starting to understand larger goals-- and that there is a self-determined path in the distance.

I was so incredibly relieved when she finally got a taste of that in selecting high school coursework. At least she got a chance to really choose some electives, etc.

I pointed out that college will be like that, too.

Anyway. Just mentioning that, depending upon maturity and personality, I think that it's probably fine to begin mentioning that kind of long-term view of things to kids when they are 8-10. Well, EG+ kids, anyway. As long as it doesn't seem to cause them undue stress and fuel perfectionism that is UNHEALTHY. DD has never met a challenge that she couldn't meet, so that wasn't an issue. It gave her much-needed hope while she was slogging through middle school requirements that were just plain drudgery.

What has been an issue (and continues to be one) is that her basic level of maturity sometimes gets in the way of her ability to 'see' the relative importance of all of the little things-- and how those come together to give her the "big" things (like those stellar report cards). What's one lousy week at school, right? Except that it's 1/16th of a semester. That's the part that is still missing.

What can I say-- she's eleven. <shrug>



ETA: I think your second concern is quite a valid one, too, however. I see that my DD tries so hard to be "like" her peers. She really studies media portrayals of adolescents, which naturally gives her some pretty skewed attitudes about "normal" and acceptable behavior by OUR standards. "Hating" school is one of those things. She sometimes says that-- but when you probe, even minimally, you find out in a hurry that she definitely doesn't really mean what she's saying. She's just trying to buy herself more street cred with peers that are significantly older than she is, I think.

"I don't care" can also be shorthand for existential depression, of course... or part of the fitting in and being cool with angsty-adolescent classmates, if you happen to be several years younger than most of them. Was your DS particularly happy/unhappy with his previous placement? What is his general attitude about the change in placement?

I have noticed that talking about the long term can make him anxious. He had tears in his eyes the other night and said to me that he didn't see the point of life if he has to work hard at elementary school, then keep going to school and work hard, and then spend his life working hard at a job. I tried to tell him that the further he goes in school, the more he can choose his subjects, and that hopefully he can find a job that he likes enough that it doesn't feel like "work". He has also said to me that he is worried that he will become a homeless person (which I have never mentioned to him at all, execpt to answer his questions when we see homeless people on the street).

I started thinking yesterday that maybe "I don't care" is the flip side of perfectionism. He was a real perfectionist when he was younger (ripping up drawings because they weren't "good enough", etc) but looking at his current work habits and effort, I certainly wouldn't call him a perfectionist now. I guess giving up before you start is a good way to avoid failure. I'm trying hard to work on his self-esteem (using the Nurtured Heart Approach that I read about here among other things).

As for the new school placement, its hard to know how he feels. I think its much for the best. He had been at Montessori since the age of 3, and it was time for a change. It worked well for him until grade 4 (where he had a teacher who didn't "get" him and didn't seem able to keep the class in control, and a complete loss of motivation on his part). The more structured approach of traditional school is good (he knows what he needs to do, and mostly does what he is told). He was not happy at the Montessori, seemed to be constantly in trouble, and was glad to change. However, he tells me he isn't happy where he is now either. So who knows. Friends are so important at this age -- he had a few good friends at his former school, and although he seems to get along OK with everyone at the new school, he hasn't wanted to invite any of them over yet. He will only have one more year before he starts a new school (secondary school starts in grade 7 here) so I'm not sure its worth considering another change before then.

We've had my son in a Montessori school for 3 years and are switching to the public school. As you well know, Montessori has good and bad points. You kind of "do your own thing" as deeply as you want.
That is great but when it's time to do something boring or something you aren't good at (boring math problems, etc), I think that Montessori kids may have trouble dealing with that. Maybe some of what you are seeing is that.
I would guess that really ADHD kids may not be able to pull themselves together as quickly as your son did. Maybe he is bored and a little disorganized, like so many 10 year olds are at this age.
I know in the psychology literature, if you pay people to do something, they do it, but in the end, they are less committed to doing the task than if they internalize the drive to do it.

My heart goes out to you Verona, I have had this exact conversation with my DD. I don't know the answer, but I know it is both alarming and heartbreaking to hear this from your child.

My DDs situation got worse over time and she eventually became quite depressed. She is coming out of the depression now (thank God!) and looking back, I believe a lot of it had to do with the hopelessness she felt due to a very bad educational fit and no real intellectual peers. Trying to see it through her eyes, when everyone is telling you that you have to work hard to become good at doing what you consider mindless/pointless busywork, in order to prepare for a lifetime of doing it in the professional world, it all does seem a little pointless, especially if the "rewards" are not anything that you actually value.

I have to say that academic summer camp for gifted students was a lifeline for us: one week a year with true intellectual peers and engaged teachers who were thrilled to teach enthusiastic learners with no tests or grades, just pure blissful learning...at least this allowed my DD to realize that maybe there is something better out there somewhere and to give her hope for a better future than the one that comes to mind every time a grown up explains why doing busy work now is so important.

My hope is that the new and far more appropriate educational setting along with access to true peers will be a complete solution for my DD, but we decided to get her tested just in case. We are in the middle of Psycho educational testing (a bit late in the game) just to see if there is something that is causing the busywork to be more difficult and treacherous for my DD than the average child (other than her ability/tendeny to look at the status quo and question it- lol).

Okay, here's what my experience has shown me:

Dd (13yo) has a certain amount of coping skills/resources to expend throughout the day when it comes to tasks like remembering homework, not ending up in the shower for forty-five minutes, whatever...attention stuff. She can, sufficiently motivated (and yes, I hold electronics hostage too), hold it together enough to do these things unmedicated. It comes at a cost, though-- eventually she runs out of mental energy and turns into a complete flitterhead, and a cranky one at that.

She, unfortunately, has had adverse reactions to the ADHD meds we've tried so far. We're giving it one more go and if the last one doesn't work, she's just going to have to go through life unmedicated. To that end we're working hard on coping skills and strategies to get her through the end of middle school and through high school and college. I'm hoping it works, but it's too early to tell yet. I hope so, because I don't have real high hopes for the med, and I don't want her living in my basement when she's forty.

I will add that fourth and seventh grades seem like the time when a lot of 2E kids fall apart, at least judging by the discussions I've had with other parents (our own experience mirrors this, fwiw). SO if your own is in one of those two years, take heart-- it probably won't get worse next year.