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Hello,

I'm writing this because I'm a bit shocked that this site exists and is so busy, and appalled at many of the things said here.

I took the WISC test as a kid and was given a GAI of 150. What this got me was many years of being told that I was not living up to my potential, visits with multiple child/adolescent psychiatrists, prescriptions for two different ADD/ADHD drugs, more tests, more people telling me I wasn't living up to my potential (you can't get a B+ when you're gifted), meetings with teachers, meetings with guidance counselors, meetings with the principal/vice principal, more tests, more admonishing, and a lingering animosity towards my parents and many teachers at my high school.

When I see parents comparing their kids' IQ scores and recommending programs for six year olds it makes me sick. "Gifted" kids need stimulation, they need to be allowed to use their knowledge and intellect, they need to be able to satisfy their curiosity. What they don't need is to be assigned a number and a set of expectations, and put through a program designed to optimize their potential.

Now, not every kid is the same. Some may love and benefit from gifted programs and other curricula. The one "gifted" program I went to was the Johns Hopkins Center for Talented Youth, and I enjoyed every single minute of it. But there, instead of being treated like smart kids, we were treated like kids, while being taught at a high pace. I'd recommend it highly.

One more thing. Your kid is not better than anyone else. I've seen enough people equating intelligence with superiority (including my family) to know that intelligence, like money, doesn't get you class.

I hope I don't sound too bitter or angry. I'm at a great school now (Carnegie Mellon), have lots of friends, fulfilling hobbies, and a much better relationship with my parents now that I am out of the house. But I can't say that how I got here was particularly enjoyable (or necessary), and I hope other kids don't have to go through the same crap I did (although I know they do).

I don't doubt your intentions. You love your kids, and you want what's best for them. So did my parents. My advice? Don't force your kids to do anything they don't want to do. If they don't like playing the cello, don't send them to cello lessons. If they don't enjoy soccer, don't make them play. Let them read upstairs a while, or run around with a video camera, or build a potato cannon (don't let them point it at their siblings, though). Believe me, it'll be a lot more fulfilling than making a sixth grader study for the SATs.

Every so often, a young or old adult wanders in here with a bunch of advice from a gifted child who's all grown up. One thing you may not understand is that a lot of the parents here have their own first-hand experiences about what it means to grow up gifted.

I agree with you that there's a bit of unhealthy comparison here on the basis of scores which are, after all, just numbers and imperfect predictors. My wife said once that some of the parents here treat their kids like show poodles.

I don't know how many parents here actually force their kids to do things they don't want to do, though. The thing about kids is that they will often get interested in things that are presented to them. Some of the parents here would be against their children doing anything in which their children weren't interested.

Believe it or not, I agree with you. I was a gifted child as well, and had a horrible experience trying to live up to expectations that were virtually impossible to meet. But that is part of the reason I am here. You are right - SOME people on here go a bit overboard with pushing their kids, in my opinion. But some, like me, are here to find the best ways to handle their own gifted children and avoid causing the same problems for them that we had as children. I don't know about everyone else, but I take everything that is said on here with a grain of salt. Some great ideas are posted on this board, but some really ridiculous things are also on here. We all have to use our brains and decide which ones make sense and which ones don't.

You do know there's kid's twelve and fourteen years old out there begging for food in the streets who are not able to get even a highschool education. Cello and soccer lessons are not the worst thing that could happen to a kid, ya know? I'm not trying to minimize your pain, brother, but I have read this site fir years and I don't see what anyone should find appalling. On one hand I do get what you're saying that parents are crazy when it comes down to it. My own mother would punish me if I got a "c" but my half sister was allowed to because "she's not as smart as I was". But now that we have kids my mom nags my sister for not working with my nephew because grandma insists the grandsons are equally smart. Even though that doesn't make sense, the kid's have different interest levels and personalities, and, finally, they're our kids to raise, not hers. She had her turn to raise her kids her way, now it's our turns. My own kid is more of a flea circus than a show poodle. Seriously, he just got a bicycle and he was instantly standing on the bar balncing on one foot and kicking neatly into the air with the other. Either way, 1) his dad and I agree to keep teaching him as much as he wants to keep learning. 2) to the best of my ability he will complete his education, then whatever he does after that will have been his choice and I will proudly support his decision. Even if he wants to be a surfer beach bum I will proudly point to him and say, "that is my son. He has earned his college degree. Now whatever he is doing with his life is because he chose to do it."
Anyway, I don't know if any of my feelings represent any part of what you were objecting to. You can hold onto some or all of those beliefs of yours when it comes time to raise your own children. There are people who raise their children grooming them for a certain life ;)and there are unschooling hippys who "let you be you and me be me", respecting even young children. I had believed when I was younger I would get my revenge on "the system" by having a dozen kids and raising them to think for themselves and turning them loose on the teachers in the public schools. Now I'm old and I have two kids and I don't want a dozen. It physically hurts and takes too long to make a baby. And I don't want to corrupt change the whole world like I used to. I just want to spend time and enjoy my family and entertain and educate my kids.

P.s. I feel like I've made some friends who "get me" here, which is something I find here and there, now and then. Though I do make all sorts of friends everywhere I go. Ain't it beautiful

Billy-
Your post sounds like you have a lot of personal regrets from childhood and that you were very frustrated by many experiences.

I am one of those parents that pushes my child. I do make him do things. I make him do his homework in nice handwriting, even when his teacher doesn't care. I make him learn to work hard, make mistakes, deal with it and move on. Perhaps you did not have the same experience, but for me as a gifted child, I did not make mistakes because work was never hard. Entering college, I had the harsh realization that I couldn't just do it on a whim without cracking open a book or taking notes during the lecture. This is the story of many, many gifted kids who were not taught to work hard.

Discussing IQ scores and programs is a way for us to add challenge, find organizations that understand how to work with our children and can enrich their education. You yourself have recommended CTY. I would not have known about it or been able to recommend it to my son without this group. It's not a way for us to rank, compare or shove our kids down some Ph.D by 8 path. I haven't seen anyone here like that.

Surely you must know that your GAI of 150 makes you very, very different in a classroom from a student with a GAI of 100. But how would we help our kids not feel that isolation and "weirdness" without discussing it?

Hello Billy! Well, I have to say that I DO respect your opinion and everyone elses on this site...Even though I might not always agree! Like everything, it's a balancing act. I was taken by surprise when you stated you were shocked that this site existed. THANK GOODNESS it does! I am one grateful mamma! This is the only place where I have found people who really seem to understand what mysef and my children are really going through. Seriously, I would be a complete mess if I had to figure out of the complexity of giftedness myself. I am so relieved to have finally found people who feel and have the same concerns as me, and to realize that I'm not completely nuts! There are many wonderful personalities here. You might be surprised to find yourself learning a thing or two!

Billy,
I too respect your opinions. I let my DS chase his whims all over the map but I also demand that he do his homework. Am I pushy? Sometimes. But I think it's about finding the right balance for the child in question. My son hates baseball, but I required him to play for one season anyway. Why? First, so that he would make his decision from an informed place and second because he needed to understand that his intellect doesn't make him better at everything than everyone else.
The parents on this board are doing the best they can with the situations they find themselves in. Are they always right? No, but unfortunately kids don't come with a manual.

Billy, I never wanted to do my homework, and because I didn't need to, my parents didn't make me. In the 70s there was no differentiation. If you'd finished your work you read your book. The result is that I still don't do anything that requires much effort, particularly if it doesn't inspire me. I am not good employee material.

Good parenting involves helping your children learn how to learn, how to rise to a challenge and yes, making them do things they don't want to do (like homework, making their bed and the dishes). I'm sorry you don't like your parents, but if they'd allowed you to do nothing would you be happier as a Walmart door greeter or with what you're doing now?

I would venture to say all of the parents on here had a childhood experience they're either trying to replicate or avoid for their own children.

Billy, you might find this article interesting.
http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/

Hi BC! Glad you hear that you are enjoying CMellon, and that you enjoyed CTY. My son is enjoying his summer CTY camps too. Did you ever consider returning as a camp counselor?

If you ever pop on and see anything I wrote that sounds like I'm equating intelligence to superiority, I'd love a private message about it, because I hope that I never sound like that. I don't even read that into other people's posts - so I guess it must me be - ((red face))

As far as angry and bitter - to me you do sound angry and bitter, mostly because I just don't recognize us in the ways you report reading us, so I'm assuming that your perfectionism is alive and well in high gear. Most books about perfectionism seem to me to address very well the part of perfectionism that gets turned inward, but believe me, there is usually a part of perfectionism that gets turned outward. We are generally a very idealistic bunch, and imaginiative, with good memories,so every mistake my parents made stands out to me in bold relief.

One thing that is true of me, and I assume is true of you, is that reaching greater levels of understanding is one of my key joys. So I invite you to spend some time here with an open mind and see if there is something to feel beyond shocked and appalled. That you've already noticed that we have good intentions tells me that the part of you that wants to learn more is greater than the part of you that wants complain.

You may want to take a look at my post http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....ups_of_HG_parents_of_HG_k.html#Post90404
and ask you parents questions about their own gifted childhoods and see if you can figure out what drove them to some of the excesses and ridgidities that you ran into.

Sorry to give advice when you didn't ask for it, but, like you, I am impatient with the normal slow process of moving forward that sometimes just has to be 'good enough.' You can dish it out, let's see if you and take it and make good use of it, ok?

((wink))
Love and More Love,
Grinity

There is some food for thought in Billy's post. I was a gifted kid with NO recognition or services. It was horrible. But I have had to be careful with my own gifted D (now 15) to strike a balance. I agree that I see a few parents out here who are overboard, especially when their kids are at a very young age.

But if our kids, for example, don't take the SAT or some other talent search test, then they can't go to programs like CTY. And in retrospect, getting my kid into communities (in person or online) with other gifted kids has been one of the things we did right. I am not saying that pushing your kids to study for those exams is the right thing to do (my D took a sample test prior to each SAT sitting, and that is it). But I think there is something to be said for having them take the tests. My kid LOVES Cogito and THINK, and would not be involved in either if she had not taken the tests.

Also, additional testing does sometimes reveal useful information. My D also has a non-verbal learning disability, and getting that diagnosed has been a big benefit for her. Her grades have gone up, and her frustration level has gone down.

Tallulah, I am not sure my kid will be better employee material than I am (I run my own business, and with good reason) no matter what I do. I don't think forcing her peg to fit into the wrong shaped hole during these childhood years is going to accomplish that. My goal has been to help her find and pursue interests that might lead to a career where her intellect is the most valued component. Of course I want her to have basic social skills and a good work ethic. But I am realistic about her "fit" in the world, too.

My goals for my kids regarding this forum are to

1. Learn about the learning needs of gifted kids and how to provide them to mine.

2. Help my kids understand why they don't always see things the way others do.

This forum is very helpful in that regard. It has also exposed me to ideas that I hadn't been exposed to before I joined, and these ideas have helped me understand myself and my kids. One of the things I like best about this forum is that people tend to be very thoughtful in the way they write.

I'm with Grinity: I hope I don't come across as putting my kids on display.

Trying to say this very gently: I've kind of seen a bit of the unhealthy comparison stuff creeping in here. It's a bummer to see this board becoming a bit like some of the other forums where parents try to outdo one another. Just my two cents. Feel free to disagree, via PM or otherwise!

As for the OP, I'm trying to do my best for my kids. I never understood why I was so different from others until I was well into adulthood. Knowing would helped me a lot and probably would have spared me some grief from time to time. Teaching this idea to my kids isn't easy, but when you have a seven-year-old who tries to debate religious philosophy with his classmates and doesn't understand why they get so angry...well, it's time to intervene. Added: I'm not saying that my little boy was reading The Grand Inquisitor or Nietzsche. He just had some very strongly held ideas that we'd discussed, and he didn't understand why others didn't share his views.

Val

I agree with many things that have been said here and somethings make me cringe. Isn't that true of most boards? For better or worse, sometimes we use numbers as shorthand for levels of giftedness and/or to give insight into our child's unique challenges. What I appreciate about this site is that I can talk openly about things that are going on with my kids and not have to leave out that they are gifted.

From your description, I doubt that you have children. In case you don't know, it is difficult to find situations where it is socially acceptable to talk about the baggage that comes with having a "gifted" kid except in very limited circumstances. Yes, people may know that your kid is gifted because they are in a gt program or are grade accelerated but they don't understand the full implications. They just assume that your kid is smart so life is easier for them. For example, if you try to talk about the fact that your 6 year old can't watch G-rated movies because she finds them too stressful, most parents of non-gt kids can't relate. They give you a look that says, "What's wrong with your kid?" Here, people, not only relate, but give you pointers about how to get through the problem. Sometimes, it's nice to know that you are not alone.

B.C.:

Just wait 'til you have kids. Perhaps then you will appreciate what this site has to offer, not to mention the Davidson Institute for Talent Development, our hosting organization.

Consider, also, that with more than 89,000 posts, drawing your conclusions based on a small sample might not be particularly fair.

I found this statement striking, as I've never sensed any such negative vibe from this site... and I certainly hope you didn't either! (I can't recall any conversation where class was discussed, let alone how it might relate to intelligence.)

I'll be super interested to read your thoughts on this when your kids come along. Seriously.

We make/force/require our kids to do all sorts of things: brush teeth, eat broccoli, go to bed, play piano (but would NEVER make them play cello [shudder]), say "please" and "thank you," etc. You know, all the classically evil stuff in life.

As far as academics are concerned, we do not haunt our child with his scores. (He doesn't even know them -- or at least we've not told him.) We do go out of our way, however, to make sure he's properly challenged, as he was quickly becoming addicted to the feeling of rolling out of bed each morning already knowing all the answers for school. At age 6 (too young for intervention by your standards), he was in third grade... just coasting along, having never yet faced the slightest degree of intellectual challenge from school. Straight A/A+ without ever applying himself. Seriously, how fair would it have been to let him continue on like this?

If anything, I'm guilty of reminding my kid that his ginormous brain is not his ticket to success. It certainly gives him an advantage of sorts, but if he never learns how to really use it, what good is it?

One of my favorite quotes about tenacity:

Please don't be put off by people citing IQ scores, etc. I suspect that many, like myself, find it comforting to have conversations involving GT kids where the first mention of an IQ score doesn't lead to panic attacks.

And... you really should stop by and visit another newcomer to this site:
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....635/Gifted_9yo_4th_grader.html#Post90635

Billy, another thought... maybe your parents would have handled your situation better if they had known more other parents in their situation and had more support. Something like this board might have helped them (and in turn you).

I appreciate you taking time to post and express your reaction both to the site and to your own experience growing up.

Do know that just as you are unique, every kid's experience is unique no matter their IQ. But having a high IQ means that new challenges enter into the general mix of things. Perhaps the ADD diagnosis for you would have been there without the high IQ; perhaps it was ignorance of those around you not knowing the difference between the driven personalities that often accompany a high IQ. I don't know.

I have three kids with high IQ's, and raising them hasn't not been a cookie cutter experience. All three have needed different accommodations, different motivations, and different parenting. I'm sorry for you the right mix never came into being until now, but perhaps your previous experiences that didn't sit well will help you appreciate what you have now in ways you never could have. I have one child that has tried my patience immensely because I feel as a mother he has squandered opportunities that should have been easy for him; it has taken almost 18 years for me to come to the point of accepting that grades will never be a motivator for him - even when it means missed opportunities that might have come with better grades. I've had to work to get him into experiences that do challenge him in ways that motivate him to do better and try harder, and those experiences have all been outside the classroom.

My youngest is the opposite - he pushes beyond his abilities and refuses to give up even when he's in tears with frustration. I have had to downplay poor grades with him, make him understand that the number on the page is not an indicator of his effort or knowledge. Am I a better mom with him because of what I learned by screwing up with the older one? Probably.

But as I jokingly tell my kids - I did my best as a mom from the very best of intentions. So if I screwed you up, with any luck I've at least given you the tools to earn enough to pay for good therapy. They laugh, but they have no idea I actually mean it. Every parent fails in some way, but the parents I see on here? They're trying much harder than your average parent. They're seeking to find answers to give their unique children the very best experience. Some may be misguided, some may be far more wise. But I haven't yet in my time here seen someone who thought they were the cat's meow because of creating a kid with a high IQ. They see the responsibility that came with it and are trying to meet it.

I should add that while I do think this forum has been really helpful in challenging my son without pushing him too hard, I do agree that I have not, and will not, have my son's IQ tested. I know that he is gifted based on observation - and three years of teachers have agreed with me. He doesn't need a number to prove that, especially since I genuinely believe that IQ does not accurately show intelligence. And there are many people out there who will use a high IQ score as a weapon - I'm not going to do that to him. That having been said, I do think he needs extra challenges, and this forum has been useful in finding those challenges for him.

Avoiding my experiences probably has motivated me with DC20 and DC16. In fact, I doubt that I would have thought to look into the issue had DC20 not echoed the same frustrations and anger that I had felt as a child upon entering school.

I was not identified as gifted until it was almost too late. Upon entering school, there was always something "wrong" with me, and I went to extreme measures to correct the problem and avoid teachers' wrath and students' bullying. I spent my teen years in and out of recovery from addiction, getting clean only to have someone point out how different I was from my classmates and how much of a problem I was in the classroom when I began participating again. My last counselor was the one who "discovered" that I was profoundly gifted and helped me understand what that meant about how I viewed the world around me and attributed meaning to my experiences.

During my teen years, I also started to help my aunt raise my two young cousins. DC20 is a very bright young man who hated school the second he started and became a problem in class the second he started school. Testing gave us answers: very bright kid with learning disabilities and ADHD. This has helped him get the accomodations he needs to learn successfully and to develop skills that he will need in the future. It has also helped to reassure less-gifted DC16 that she is not stupid, which has come up many times in the past as she has made cuts and not made cuts for gifted programs and has, at times, felt angry about her brother.

Have we pushed? Yes. DC20 would not have done any homework or tried anything related to school were it not for the pushing, as he enjoys learning but struggles to write out what he knows. Forcing him to play the violin or get perfect grades? No, although his grades have been quite high and he has enjoyed music and athletics over the years...

While I do not agree with everything said on this board or other boards like it, I appreciate a place that understands. Although there seem to be many gifted kids in the area when DC20 was young, no one had a clue or was willing to listen to the challenges--like a 7-year-old getting suspended from school after impulsively acting out of social justice when a fifth grade bully hurled racial epithets at the classmates who had basically tortured DC20 every day for the past year... or DC20 simultanously feeling like the dumbest kid in his class and the smartest...

I'm sorry your experiences have been so bad. You might find some of the articles on Hoagies' Gifted Website intriguing(http://www.hoagiesgifted.org). I believe there are still some articles dealing with gifted children growing into gifted adults and some of the challenges facing gifted young adults...

Sometimes I think I might sound like a pushy parent because I'm always looking for more things to give them. �But I don't feel like a pushy parent, I feel like a creative parent. �Sometimes some posts play on that minor insecurity of mine �but i shake it off quickly. �My kid's are healthy, happy, and engaged in life and learning. �That's my draw to this forum. �People here don't really bash other people's parenting efforts. �There's a tolerant and supportive community for families with wildly different parenting and educational styles. �**my own interpretation** of why it's a gifted forum, the tie that binds us, is that we and our children are able and willing learners. �Anyone who posts on a gifted forum that says someone is not living up to their potential means that they are for some reason less enthusiastic about learning than they should be. �This is not a "badger someone to jump through this hoop" issue, it's an issue of trying to find out why a child who should enjoy learning is not. �Which I keep seeing answered with troubleshooting �for LDs, or more frequently hidden vision problems, or tips to learn to stay on task, to relieve the suffering of all sentient beings, not to berate a child for earning a "b". �That sounds like the actions of a parent who listened to advice from friends, neighbors, and clergy rather than researching giftedness and talking with other gifted parents openly. �This is finally available to this generation. �

I don't have numbers for my kid's. I'm 100% sure they're big numbers. �They'll get whatever generic testing the school gives them once they start. �I'll probably post the results here. �I consider myself belonging here and I consider this forum a community. �But most of the numbers I see posted here are often by people with only a few posts. �I would assume it's because they were given a clinical set of numbers and an evalutory statement about what it means. �But since it's considered rude to talk about such things in polite society they ask mr. Google to find them some everyday people they can discuss the results with anonymously so they can see what the results mean in the real world, which yes, means comparing. �That's what an iq test does-it compares. �But from what I've seen here and from IRL encounters with bright folks it's less of a comparison of "how better than you am I?" but it seems to be more a judgement of the smarter the stranger. �I would share an IQ number with the same standards I would tell someone my birthday. �Some people would never mention it comparing it with mentioning your weight or pant size. �It's all a matter of personal choice. �I wouldn't call it classy either way.

And, plus, to get to the point, nerdy kids like things that the neighborhood kid's might not- excessive books, puzzles, non fictions, geometry blocks, science kits. �It's nice to discuss parent reviews on things each others kid's might really like. �I could really go on here. �There are so many things to love about the existence of this forum and the familys who come here.

Oh yeah, you didn't mention your age and you didn't mention what brought you here initially but there is a gifted forum for highschoolers and college kid's. �I think it's called gifted haven. I browsed it a while ago and it looked active. �They mentioned cognito which is another forum for the young crowd, but I think it's more deeper student-types at that one. Didn't look close. �My kid's aren't that old and I'm happy here.

I may edit this post later. �It's late. �I'm tired.