Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion 3 groups of HG parents of HG kids - a good model?

I was typing a long post on a different e-list, and I liked it so much I thought I bring it over here to see if this shoe fits some of us.

I'm trying to understand how things got to be the way they are, in general. One of the moms on the other list is doing a talk to parents of HG kids, about how to get in the mood for advocacy. She asked us what we had learned, and this is what I wrote:

I would say that most of the Highly Gifted Children have highly gifted parents who once were children and probably didn't like elementary school either. When children are small, and in a situation where it is clear to them there isn't a good fit, this will be painful for some of them. The ones for whom this is painful have 2 choices - decide that there is something wrong with school or that there is something wrong with themselves!

For the parents who were children who decided 'school is bad' the challenge not 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' and gently, firmly, and repeatedly summon the school to live up to its fancy motto and take the time to figure out the child's current readiness level and brainstorm what is the most straightforward way to get the child spending most of their day within their readiness level. Here the general advice is to use program components that are already in existence, whenever possible because human nature is such that creating a whole new program is a lot of work and takes tremendous dedication, more really than can be expected.

For parents who decided that there was something wrong with themselves, the challenge is to overcome the early conditioning. One way to do this is to spend time with other highly gifted parents who are facing the same thing. Online forums are convenient and effective, such as Davidson's Public Forum: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/forum_summary.html
Another way is face-to-face, through Davidson YSP, talent search family activities, or weekend conferences - check out http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/conferences.htm for ones more local to you.

Then there are the parents who were in a bad fit but weren't bothered by it. They might have kids who aren't bothered either, in which case giftedness isn't even a topic of interest. On the other hand, they may have children who are bothered, in which case they are much more likely have sought out some contact with the gifted world. This group always has to fight the niggling feeling that the child is making the whole thing up. The best thing one can do for this group is to help them get an authority figure to tell them 'Yes, even though you were able to thrive in a poor fit academic environment, personality matters, and your kid isn't. You are the lucky exception, not your child. It's normal for Highly Gifted kids to be very unhappy in regular classrooms.' The authority person could be a psychoeducational evaluator, the gifted coordinator, an experienced parent, therapist or speaker at a gifted event. When someone from this group asks for proof, ask them how things went for their extended family members. There is almost always an 'Uncle Johnny' or grandparent in the bunch who was a severe underachiever and did some spectacular acting out. Connecting the dots between High IQ running in families and not all family members having enough EQ (emotional intelligence, self mastery, compliance, drive, whatever) to thrive in a poor academic fit situation usually does the trick in helping this parent momentarily see that there is nothing wrong with their child, but that the environment needs to change. But I've noticed that these moments are usually followed by long periods of self-doubt, and it's also helpful for this group to spend time with other parents of highly gifted children, online and face to face, as with the 2nd group, such as Davidson's Public Forum: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/forum_summary.html
or face-to-face, through Davidson YSP, talent search family activities, or weekend conferences - check out http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/conferences.htm for ones more local to you.

It's my observation that some of the ones in the 3rd group were truly 'born that way.' Others who find themselves in the 3rd group were helped by unseen forces, such as having a warm, healthy gifted sibling or extended family group at home, which I call the 'home cluster model,' happening to be born in school districts with excellent school gifted programs and above average numbers of gifted and highly gifted children, a family tradition of picking particular private schools that 'get' HG kids, or very skillful behind the scenes advocacy by parents or 'gaurdian principals.' The rest of the 3rd groupers, and the 1st groupers, I speculate, did at one time blame themselves for the lack of fit they found when they attended school, but migrated into groups 1 and 3 over time. What I've noticed is that when these folks can 'make friends' with their early 'group 2' memories then their family life and their advocacy goes much better.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Great great great post! ( Too tired right now to say more. )

Makes a lot of sense to me Grins. I was firmly a group 3 as a child. My mom advocated for early K and it went on from there.

When it was time for me to advocate for DS, it was almost automatic. The funny thing is, I never approached it with trepidation. It never occurred to me that anyone would say no. Luckily, no one did. I realize after reading posts of others that I have been extremely lucky in this. To this point, i've gotten everything i've ask for without a fight. It never occurred to me that my take on the whole advocacy process might in fact have been shaped by my own experience, but it makes sense.

C1234 - You're such a tease. Seriously, sometimes these words fly out of my fingers and it's a bit scary!

Shari - Glad this cleared things up for you and you round it useful. That you had no trepidation makes sense to me, since this your baseline experience. In a way the question that really intreages me is that you haven't had to fight. Is that because you walked in with such a strong confidence? Is it because the 'kind' of giftedness that runs in your family is the sort that is easier for a school system to notice? Is it because of high EQ and lack of 2E issues? I seem to remember that you homeschooled for a while, is the fact that you had enough confidence in your perspective to 'put your money where your mouth is and homeschool' part of the reason you've never had to fight to advocate?

Anyway - your feedback gives me a lot of hope that when the kids who we talk about today are the parents of tomorrow that teaching kids at their readiness level will be 'no big deal.'

Love and More Love,
Grinity

I love it! I've been trying to figure out which category I fit into. School wasn't a good fit for me but I still liked it because there was even less challenge at home. There were moments when it went well. But I suppose overall I'm in with the parents who decided something was wrong with them, which is why I was so blown away when I discovered the gifted world, even though I knew all along that I was 'good at school'.

Very thought provoking, Grinity.

I loved school. However, I began first grade in 1966 when grouping and tracking were normal. I began reading at 4, but was given other work - with one other student.

In sixth grade, tracking ended and what a difference that made. I spent my Junior High years learning the same material that I did in elementary school.

I don't know where I fit in, but expectations and school has changed so much.

Gifted was not a word used in the 1960's. My father was called a "genius", which was never documented anywhere. There is almost no comparison to that time with no computers and collection of data.

I loved school (at times) too, GeoMamma. It was great to escape home for a few hours a day and have that independence. Plus the teachers were easier to please than my Mamma, and showed it. I think a lot of us Group 2ers loved school.

Ellipses, I speculate that if tracking had continued through Junior High you'd definitely be in the 3rd group. One of the lucky ones. It does sometimes happen that school IS a good fit for a gifted kid!

I guess the key question for my model is - when you hit Jr High, how did you react to the situation? My hope would be that you didn't blame yourself, but did your early good start allow you to roll with the punches and wait it out until High School and continue to be an achiever? Did you end up as an achiever or an underachiever? I guess my prediction is that group oners drop out of school physically or emotionally for a while, and either get recycled in high school or college and become that great suprise when a teacher 'saves' a kid, or go their own way outside system, or join group 3 and find a way to make the best of school.

Peace,
Grinity

It was a major culture shock since I had only attended school with children of educated parents. There were students in my new school who spent the entire year trying to learn to add - no kidding.

We were an experimental project to learn how to teach to all types of learners - without computers. I was amazed at the different types of students and was really interested in their lives. I guess my sociology life course took the place of other learning.

It was also a tough time for me because me father was dying and I was very tired because we were up all night caring for him - no hospice back then. I remember falling asleep in class quite a bit.

I am still hoping to "grow up" and be a three.

Why Chrys? What looks appealing about being a group 3er? What's doesn't work for you about the group you are in now?

Your post has certainly given me food for thought. In fact, when I read it the other day I decided I needed to think about my experiences as a gifted kid before I posted a response.

School wasn't a good fit for me, but I was always basically happy in general (just my personality). I remember, though, being sad when all my best friends were in the top reading group and were therefore tested for the gifted program in K and I was not. It turned out that in K I was diagnosed with a lazy eye and very bad eyesight, and when my eye problems were fixed I was immediately an excellent reader. But, I'd seemingly missed the boat with the gifted testing. For two more years I'd watch sadly as all my best friends got to go to the gifted pull-out while I did not, so in 3rd grade I told my mom that I wanted her to tell the school to test me. They did and I easily made the cut. I guess I just knew that I belonged with those people. So, it didn't occur to my parents to advocate for me until I asked them, but they did support me when I advocated for myself. (BTW: A few years later they changed the requirements for getting into the gifted program and we all had to retest, and I was the only one of my friends to still qualify.)

By the time I got to middle school virtually all my friends were 1-3 years older than me and it bothered me quite a bit that they got to take advantage of some great programs for older kids that I did not, simply because of my age. I felt like I was older and fit in with the older kids best, and I remember asking if I could skip a grade. My parents agreed that I could handle higher level work, but I had (have) a twin brother for whom that wouldn't have been a good move (probable undiagnosed LD) and so I stayed where I was. So, I just continued to hang out with the older kids, resent always being "too young," and mostly breeze through school learning no study skills whatsoever until college. However, I loved school since I knew I was good at it, and I did come through life knowing that I could become anything I wanted to do if I just put my mind to it. Still, there were definitely moments in college when I changed the course of my life because I gave up way too easily when something was a challenge (e.g., organic chemistry) because I thought that if it didn't come easily to me that I should do something else instead.

So, that has been my motivation for advocating for my HG kids. They, too, are basically happy people who don't complain about how easy things are in school for them, although they do take note of it and tell me about it. And I am not a general rabble-rouser who likes to cause trouble. But, when I saw that my kids needed more -- like when I saw I needed more -- I felt compelled to ask for it. I still hate asking for more and more each time my kids grow out of their current accommodations, but I bite the bullet and do it. I just want them to learn new things at school, to learn to put in some work, and to learn to stick with something that doesn't come easily.

Just feeling isolated... It doesn't seem to bother dd or dh as much as it get to me. We are hoping to get some big school news this week. I really want to feel optimistic about dd's schooling.

Yeah, I suppose so, Grinity. If you like parts of it too, it's harder to decide the school must be the problem and more likely that you'll think it's you, I guess.

I often feel like I'm still coming to terms with my own experiences of schooling, giftedness etc. I'm not sure I've even got to my children sometimes

I decided something was wrong with school... and with pretty much every other institution I knew of by extension. It's made me a bit of a radical. The other day, DH told me he sometimes goes allong with me when he doesn't realy agree because I'm "really wierd" and he's just "trying to be wierd." <blink> <pause> <hunh?>

Anyway, DS is going for an SLP assement, and I'm ridiculously scared, and I'm pretty sure it's because my distrust of "the system" is just so deep I can't convince myself that it's gonna be ok.

But I was a bad fit even in the full-time gifted programme... it wasn't just lack of challange that did me in. I might be an extreme case

-Mich.

Dh and I were both group two types. The difference for us is that he, to this day, remains of the mindset that there is a problem with him. I, on the other hand, realized what had been wrong with me my entire life once we figured out what was "wrong" with dd12. It totally changed my view of myself and did wonders for my self image.

Perhaps it was more deeply entrenched for dh b/c he was not a stellar student. I imagine that he could have been dx with a LD but the concept of accepting that the thing wrong with him was not a negative or flaw is not an easy one to swallow for him. He still throws out zingers like, "they've got some of me in them as well. They're really going to struggle" when dd12 has a question about her math, for instance. Well, heck, the kid started accelerated algebra in 8th grade at age 11 and has an A in the class. I don't think that asking the occassional question indicates that she's going to fail math. Fortunately, dd12's self image is pretty intact. We have to watch it more with our little one.

I'm definitely in the second group, though I have learned not to blame myself these days. DC20's struggles to fit into the school system mirrored a lot of my own issues in school, as well as my own reading/discussions on HG+ kids, helped me see that I was not the "dumb kid" or the "bad kid." I am happy that DC20 is a resilient kid and has emerged from some unhappy times at school without internalizing it or dismissing school...

Yippee! and Yippee to all the 2nd groupers who have learned to appreciate their good qualities and see themselves in a balance way. I do think it's possible, it just takes time, and the perspective of seeing our kids sure helped me!

Cricket2 - I celebrate the growth you've made from your early group 2 days! I suspect you are right that your DH got hit with 'both barrels' of being blocked from learning and getting poor grades as well. And yes, his zingers could pose a problem for the kids. It's hard to change someone else, but I don't think that is a reason not to try. I would be sure to find an opportunity every day to beam at DH whenever he shows any intelligent functioning at all. Perhaps verbalizing your appreciation for his intelligence will catch his defensiveness, but do it silently - he can read your face.

It will take a while, but you do have reality on your side!
Smiles,
Grinity

I would guess that about 1 in 10 kids are just too gifted for the full time gifted programe. But it could be some thing else - who knows? Being a smart female has been hard in some places and times - perhaps even in the place and time you were in.

I find it very interesting that your distrust of one institution spread to institutions in general. Even as a group 2er, I had a certian amount of this. It didn't really change until I got to know my son's friends and watched them very carefully through the preschool and early elementary years. We live in a town that takes pride in it's excellent schools and wins awards, etc. I was shocked to discover that school isn't 'terrible' for everyone. Perhaps as your child grows you'll get a chance to know some of his friends and observe the same thing. Perhaps not.

Bottom line - it is really hard to trust, or at least to play along to see is trust is possible. Good luck. I have a wonderful feeling about this 'turn of the wheel.'

Love and More Love,
Grinity

((giggle)) Well yes, there is that...
But I suspect you are doing a very good job, no matter what it feels like.
Grinity

Oh, I get that. I remember when I joined YSP and a voice in my head said: "Someday your son will be in great shape, and you won't even be one bit interested in the whole topic of Giftedness." That's a nice though, but also why the Gifted Movement has had such a hard time taking off - the parents keep graduating!
I hope the big school news is good and does the trick. You have my total permission to be completely satisfied and wander off. ((wink))
If only!
((I'll catch you on the Grandparent side if that does actually happen!))
Grinity

I get so choked up reading this story. So glad they eventually found your vision problem and that you eventually asked your parents to have you tested, and so glad that you finally got the confirmation at the retesting. That may sound like I'm celebrating that you were 'better' than your friends - but I don't believe 'gifted' is better, I just totally GET how difficult it is to get honest feedback and what it's like to self doubt and self question.

Our culture has no safe way - no vocabulary - to talk about inate differences simply and clearly. Of coures no one can know another's potential. Of course more smart isn't the same as more 'good' or more likely to succede. But there is a part of us that is aware of each other's qualities that are tested on an IQ test, and that part needs a bone of validation once in a while. Otherwise we start making up elaborate explainations that aren't useful in navigating the world.

Good for you for stepping up for your kids when needed! It's painful but worth it!
Love and More Love,
Grinity

Group 2 all the way for both DH and I. DH to the point of severe depression. For both of us, having a child to shepherd through the educational system has helped us to identify better with our own lingering issue. But, advocating for the gifted but challenged in executive function is changing all of us into #1's.

I'm glad to hear elh0706 that DH is getting a better picture of reality, and hopefully that will help with the depression. Severe depression is such a difficult thing.

Be sure to post here in detail about the executive function challenges. There just might be a key idea waiting out there in someone's brain, waiting to help.

And yes, as much as I love how well schools work for ND kids, there is lots of interest in totally transforming the educational system in hopes of saving the US economy.

Smiles,
Grinity

I thought about this over the weekend. I'm still not sure what category fits. In K-8, I always got the message that I was different because I was smart. I never got the message that there was anything wrong with me. I was different in a good way. The school itself tried several different ways to deal with me -- grade acceleration, subject acceleration, independent study. Some of these efforts led to social isolation -- extra recess by yourself feels oddly like punishment. For the most part, they kept me relatively happy. (Category 3?)

As a teen, I struggled more. I went to a small Catholic girls high school. Academically, it wasn't horrible but it wasn't great. With a few minor exceptions, there were no academic challenges. I was the only student who signed up for AP Calculus and Physics so the classes weren't offered. I battled with perfectionism and felt like I was never allowed to make mistakes. At that age, being significantly different didn't feel like a good thing. I got sarcastic and arrogant. It was easier to feel different if I pushed people away before they could push me away. I knew my high school was not a good fit and saw college as my salvation. (Category 1/2?)

For college, I went to an Ivy League school. For the first time in my life I was "average" and had horrible study skills. I got my first "B" ever and had no idea how to deal with it. My first semester of college was one of the hardest periods of my life. Aside from the academic issues, socially I could not relate to my freshman dorm. By some weird quirk, my freshman hall was full of wealthy/trust-fund kids from the upper east side of Manhattan. My parents were scrapping to send me there while these kids complained because their dad only gave them enough money to buy an inexpensive new car instead of the BMW/Porsche that they wanted. Several of them abused cocaine. By Thanksgiving, I wanted to get away from what I saw as my academic "failure" and from that crowd.

Mercifully, I stayed and found a good group of friends in my second semester. Academically though, I felt like a fake. I figured out ways that I could game the system because I didn't have the time management skills to do all of the assigned work. I got mostly B's with the occasional A in subjects that caught my interest. I still managed to get in a scientific honor society but didn't feel like I deserved it. In many ways, I cheated myself in college often doing the bare minimum. Sadly, once the challenge was there, I did not rise to it. (Category 2?)

So, what kind of parent am I? I keep close watch on my kids and try to make sure that they are being appropriately challenged. I've got one who finds school, even the gifted program, easy. I think that she would be a candidate for grade acceleration but socially she doesn't want to do it. I've talked to her about not wanting to wait until college to be challenged. The other is a gifted dyslexic who understands hard work and perseverance much better.

I've found that their comfort in their current gt program is largely teacher dependent. They do best with the ones who don't adhere strictly to the district's pacing and curriculum guidelines. They've struggled the most with teachers who are less flexible and tend toward the punitive.

Knute974, you have certianly had a variety of experiences. I would have thought that a 'group 3' experience in elementary school would have a protective effect even if High School wasn't idea. It sure doesn't sound like it. In a way, you got to an Ivy Leauge school and were able to stay there in spite of a tough first semester. OTOH, you never developed the study skills or a belief in your ability to do the work. Do you share some of the dyslexia traits with your second born? That's another way people get a very confused self-image...
Luckily human development doesn't end at college, and I hope that since then, or soon, you get a better sense of what you can accomplish.

Good luck with your 'coaster' - I hope she gets lots of great teachers over the next few years!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

sorry for the very brief initial post! nutcracker season is really taking it's toll this year. With both kids participating, I am just wiped out! (they are fine, of course)

to your original question, I think I probably fall about 1/2 way between feeling that school was an ok fit (it was ok/good some of the time) and feeling that there was something wrong with me, but I think this latter is mostly due to many pointed comments from other kids about how there was something wrong with me!

dh is a firm group 1 guy, unfortunately, not sure how he made it through college. He is one of the extra-large egg heads, he was ok until about 3rd grade and then everything 'went to s**t' as he puts it. He has DEEP fears for ds10. So far ds' boat has not capsized, but come VERY close a time or two, to be sure. I think dh is beginning to see that we will just have to play everything by ear from here on out (like we have been). Not rely on the school ever getting it just perfect...well maybe Grad school.

...ex: I applied for ds to be re-reviewed for gt program on math side of things, but decided to just move ahead with algebra this year with him. (Really seems to be sparking his math brain back up, he is having fun!)

Grinity, no dyslexia for me -- that comes from DH. Life has taken many twists and turns since college and I am in a fine space. Your initial post addressed school experience so I didn't want to bore you with the details since then.

Sorry for the comment - I don't think the 'gentle teasing' I intended quite got across.
I think you got enough of a fit to have hope that school can work for HG and beyond kids. Glad that your DH has you to steady him when the fears arise. I loved that about watching the movie 'Waiting for Superman' - very early it says something like -

It was nice to be in a dark theatre and imagine that I wasn't the only one. Oh how my stomach used to churn during those drop offs!

Smiles,
Grinity

Mine still does. Even though in my heart, I know I'm doing everything possible for DS7 and he loves school, in my head I worry every day about what comes next? We are suffering through some anxiety right now regarding finals next week. He's never taken one before and the other kids in his classes have convinced him that they are impossible and that they are all going to fail. His anxiety instantly causes me to start second guessing myself, which doesn't put me in the best state of mind to support my son.

Then I tell him that I would never put him in a situation that he couldn't handle and he knows that to be true (so far) and it helps me to regain my sense that we are doing the best we can given the options.

Shari,
I'm sorry your family is going through this, but the only way to build self esteem is to face difficult situations and come through them.
Still, I think part of the victory is learning how not to 'go lemming' and become incompasitated, just because your peers do.

As Kipling's poem IF says -

That's why I'm so interested in slow breathing lately. Your DS might find this interesting.
Love and More Love
Grinity

I think that the female thing WAS part of it. But I also had(have) a significant LD, and I think the GLD thing was really, really, really badly understood.

More than either of those, though, I think the problem was that I'm naturally a radical (literal sense), and inovative thinker. I remember one "lateral thinking" excercise in grade 11 where I got sent to the office to get me out of class (like they do with kindergardeners), becasue my thinking was just too lateral and the five teachers in the room couldn't handle me. In retrospect, I was highlighting pretty clearly the wooly-headedness of the course designers (not the teachers in the school) because my solutions were much easier, faster, and better, and DIDN'T illustrate what they were trying to get across.


Most institutions -- not quite all.

Institutions are easy targets, because they really *can't* do everything right. I certainly don't disagree with the opinions I formed in that erra, I just have a bit more sympathy for the poor institutions. Funny how many smart people are anarchists.


And I HAVE learned that "playing along" is often the better solution. Wish me luck on that today. I'ma gonna need it.



-Mich
PS: thanks for the "fix" before the scary thing

I think that sympathy is a sure sign of maturity Mich!
Go you!
Good luck with the meeting.
2E kids are still difficult to accomidate in most school settings - I think there is tremendous potential there, but no easy answers!

Grin

**venting*
I was complaining again just yesterday about, this time, about identity theft. Now they have started cloning credit cards to make hard plastic copies of your credit card so they can buy groceries with your paycheck (happened to us. The bank lady said that's what the crooks are doing). But then I read here that the US is something like only 21st in the world in math and science. Hmm., wonder if it's because the system's set up to reject talent, except sometimes.

**done with 1st vent, beginning 2nd**
As for the quiestion. I fit as unfit on so many levels. Single mother. Moved, so new school every six months. Super religious. Everyone knew I was "really smart" but religiosity identity trumped personal rights. There was a Christian Rock song summed it up- "my closest friends are aliens and strangers, travellers here, living with danger.". From something someone said about being in this world but not of it.
That mentality did not work out well for me in the long run. I wish it was just "not living up to my potential". We'll say I lived through a Dabrowski's disintegration with the full force of a gifted over reaction, to put a positive spin on it.
So, I was in the group that believed there was something wrong with the school, but only because it was part of this world, and that it was beneath us to try to change the school. You know, "obey the law of the land.". "this world is not mine or else I would fight for it.". "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers of darkness.". Hey, what can a non-Christian do with all that bible training but complain about it? With all due respect and love for believers.

I have actually disintegrated a few times since then. It hasn't been a dull life.

ETA: Geez, now I'm sounding bitter. Maybe it's best like Sandra Bullock said in The Blind Side, "When I count to 3 open your eyes. The past is gone and the world is a good place."

I've thought about your post and read other people's responses and I still don't know where I fit in. In some ways I was "fine" during school, bored, but I had friends. I do have some specific memories that stick with me and bother me. Like my K teacher who told the class that you couldn't subtract a larger number from a smaller number (and I was just thinking, duh, that means you have a negative number) or in 3rd grade how a teacher threatened to pull me out of the gifted program because I wasn't doing well on grammar worksheets (incidentally something that I hated, I was already missing class during that time due to algebra tutoring, and it didn't seem to affect my writing skills in general). I also remember being frustrated during elementary school that I had to wait to learn certain things or read certain books until I was older. But I also had some good teachers, or ones that I remember enjoying.

Once I moved on to middle school and high school they did more tracking so I was able to be almost entirely in honors/AP classes in high school. It wasn't always the perfect fit but I was the kind of kid that always pushed the system. For instance, I took some classes on the side as "independent studies" so I could fit in extra AP classes or more extracurriculars. I was always extremely busy but by my senior year I skipped enormous chunks of school due to boredom (but yet I always knew how to cover my tracks so I didn't get in trouble once!).

I chose to go to a smaller college that was free for me instead of a big university (very well recognized but I would've been paying off debt FOREVER!). It turned out to be a great move, though, because I was able to even create some new courses that I was interested in, study abroad multiple times, and really tailor my education to my needs instead of going by a set curriculum. Grad school was also good but I had to relearn a lot of study habits because once you took away the incentive of grads my motivation took a huge hit. I'm still recovering from that but I'll have to tell you later how that works out for me.

As a side note, though, I can see the effects of being forced into a lock-step curriculum with how much I tuned-out well into grad school. I was never an obviously gifted kid. I always knew how to get an A and then tune out (normally doing work either for another class or reading or working on stuff for my extracurriculars). I had had some teachers who were absolutely floored when I aced my AP tests because they never realized what I was capable of. In college I started getting better about talking in class but I still held back quite a bit (and tuned-out still).

All that being said, now that I have the experience as a parent I've decided that the whole system is flawed and am not looking to send DD to a traditional school at all. Right now we're looking at Montessori because I feel strongly about multi-age classrooms and child-led learning (granted, we have to see how well our local individual schools carry that out still...). I can also see how grades did a disservice to me (many times I was more focused on them than the process of learning). My parents advocated for me in that they did get me tested and put me in the gifted program but that was about it. Looking back I think I could've really benefited from a grad skip or at the very least more differentiation in math. What they DID get right was to always challenging me at home. However, they ALWAYS patiently answered my questions no matter how crazy (I remember some great talks we had about the beginning of the universe and capitalism vs. communism), although sometimes my questions were answered with new questions from them.

I'd say that both the 3rd group and the 1st group have a claim on your past. I would guess that because of your positive 3rd group experiences, you were able to still game the system and get your As while quietly hating it (group 1) The fact that you are dead set against sending your children to traditional school tells me that for all the attempts to give you enough to be in the 3rd group, it just wasn't enough.

Does that sound about right?
Grinity

Wow Dear Ones,
Thanks so much for all the discussion. It seems like some of us fit snugly into one catagory and others had a more mixed experience, but that these 3 groups are workable short-hand for what many of us have lived through and how our early experiences color our parenting of our gifted kids.

I'd love to hear more experiences, and I'd like to invite suggestion for names for the 3 groups. I'm looking for names that are descriptive without being pejorative.

Any suggestions?
Thanks!
Grinity

For the most part. I don't think I ever consciously hated it, though, while it was happening. I think this is something that I've realized more looking back through the eyes of a parent. When I was actually going through school I always kept myself so busy with other stuff (whether it was just a good book or extracurriculars or drawing cartoons of the teacher) that I didn't really notice it that much. I do remember sometimes having problems getting along with other kids or understanding some small talk that they did. But I still managed to have friends.

Maybe my problem is more that hate is such a strong word. There were times that I sincerely enjoyed school but I just think that the system is too flawed in its current form and that distracts from the way learning should be. For me this goes way beyond being a gifted thing, though, as I think schools should be changed significantly for all kids (I just wish I had a nice tidy answer on how to do that on a national level ).

Hi Grinity and everyone else out there! Grinity, you always have great ideas! You asked for more experiencs, so here it goes. When it came to education, I never had much support. I was never expected to do really well...Average was good. During high school, I pretty much just gave up and metamorphosed myself into an airhead. I continued on as the homecoming queen and head cheerleader. I got out of class for everything. I had the teachers wrapped around my finger. I wasn't held accountable for anything. Even though I was one of the "popular" girls, I remember feeling so lost. Now as an adult, I look back and feel so sad of what I missed. That's why I'm such an advocate for my kids and indulge them in every opportunity possible. Interesting...In highschool, my boyfriend and all of my friends were the smart achievers. They all went on to great colleges and in adulthood, continued to achieve. I went to an "okay" college. I never confronted my feelings about all of this until I had my three kids and had to deal with the complexity of their giftedness. Funny...Today I look at what I subscribe to, read, etc...Hahaha Is this the same person??? Sometimes I look at my facebook profile (Lol) and think is this really who I am??? It almost seems like it can't be true, even though I know it is. Small talk drives me nuts. I only want friends that I can continue to learn from. My mom came up for Thanksgiving and once again said, "I wonder where your three children get all of their intelligence?"...

@NM21C, that sounds just like me in high school. I got through high school by cramming my time full of activities -- so much that I ran out of room on my college apps. I think that I came off more negative than intended when I posted yesterday about my high school experience. I didn't hate high school. I just knew that I wanted it to be over and questioned the sanity of anyone who told me that high school represented the best years of their lives.

Well, the one group(something's wrong w/the school) has disillusion high standards of expectations. They need the patience to cultivate the situation to meet their (kid's) needs, not to believe everyone who accuses them of feeling too entitled and give up, but to realize at the same time it's going to take some time and effort to get what you need. Don't give up. Everything you need is possible.

Here's a differnt, and valuable perspective -

Thanks for sharing anyom, I applaud you for your ability to give your children what you didn't get. You make an excellent point.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Aww thanks!

I'm loving this discussion! Really interesting to hear everyone's perspectives.

I'd been reading this thread and hadn't been able to connect to any of the three groups and wasn't really sure why. Anon's story hit the nail on the head for me. Thanks Anon (and to Grinity for posting it), I hadn't been able to articulate what my story was. I'm always appreciative when I find a piece of puzzle that fits!

Thanks Giftodd!
Any suggestions as what to call your group? Does 'School as Refuge' seem right? Or School as Thrown Rope do it?
Care to speculate on the particular struggles your group faces to do advocacy? Does it seem a sacrilige when ur kids report school troubles? Feel very frightening? Is it harder to tell that the kid isnt being a spoilt brat? Do you speculate that ur group has special strengths in Advocacy?
Love and more Lv
Grinity

Lol I personally like 'School as Thrown Rope' myself. While it was my escape from home, I certainly wasn't in a position to really actually apply myself and spending so much time bending to fit in meant that in reality - for me at least, it was never really cocooning in the way I think of a refuge being. School was by no means perfect, and very hard work (if only I'd applied that effort to my studies rather than fitting in!) but boy was it better than home.

In terms of advocacy, because I didn't idealise school I certainly don't think it's a sacrilege when my dd reports (or more accurately demonstrates) issues with school (preschool at the moment). I feel that I am not too bad at advocacy based on the results that I have achieved (good relationships with educators, my daughter�s need being met � at least to date � I may well prove myself wrong!) I think where I have actually been really lucky with the upbringing I had is that so many of my needs were not met that in my case it eventually dawned on me that as no one else was going to do that for me, I�d have to do it myself (I am very grateful that that is I path I chose, as it could well have been the opposite). I am also very aware that my parents didn�t set out to not meet my needs; they just weren�t in a position to do so. I guess I see school and the broader community as an extension of that � people aren�t deliberately not meeting our kids needs, they often just can�t (due to their own personal beliefs, experiences, circumstances, lack of training and education etc).

My (some might say extreme) self sufficiency means that while she is little, where it becomes really apparent that dd�s need aren�t going to be met and that the situation cannot be resolved (and I�m talking sustained evidence, not just a bad day at preschool), then I will do what I can to find something better. I also encourage her to stand up for herself so when she�s bigger she can advocate for herself. Where my years of training myself to fit in pays off is that I can read people very well, I can ask questions that give me an insight in to what motivates people and respond to them in a way that they find appealing (manipulative much?) The results of those interactions also give me a pretty good indication as to whether or not a situation will work, without burning any bridges.

So I don't really blame 'schools'. I think that as a community (in the broad sense, not just 'the gifted community') we have created a situation where it is really hard for schools to meet the needs of kids who fall outside the 'norm'. I think there is such a culture of competition that it makes it hard for any school to trust parents, I think that government schools aren't adequately funded to go beyond the basics and I think that they have little incentive to do so either. I think the gifted community (and in that I include parents of gifted kids whether the parents identify as gifted themselves or not), don't speak up enough to make giftedness 'normal' in the sense that it's just another set of needs that has a right to be supported. I feel (and I suspect others might disagree) that we spend too much time hoping teachers will �discover� our kids, and put too much effort in to being careful not to tread on any toes. I think we put up with too much substandard treatment. I also think, importantly, that we don't give teachers a chance by not being straight up them about who our kids are. If we keep giftedness a secret, teachers don�t get a chance to respond to it. We put them on the back foot when we hope they find something they are often not trained or experienced in finding and it�s no wonder they�re often then on the defensive when we confront them (however gently) for not finding it. That said, I also think - in Australia at least � we have a fair few teachers among the great ones who should no longer be in the profession, but that�s a general education issue rather than anything gifted specific! - I apologise for the �I thinks�, I am just really aware that this is just my view and it has informed my advocacy.

So perhaps the greatest gift I got from my upbringing is that a problem is rarely caused by just one thing and just how much you have to loose by not speaking up. But also I learnt the value of diplomacy and tied together, while I wouldn�t say I enjoy advocating for my daughter, I feel ok about how I go about it. I wouldn�t presume to speculate on whether other people in my circumstance have come out with the same approach, but so far � it�s been a plus from an advocacy perspective.

Sorry� I got a bit carried away

Shoot, giftodd, you mean you treat people like people and not like two-dimensional charachters who soley say their lines to us and then pause until we see them again? Can you even teach that? There's a book called "the 36 hour negotiating course" that supposedly teaches that skill. I didn't actually read it, I just read about it. I like what you said. I hope my reply comes across that way.

Lol, thanks La Texan - sometimes I feel I walk a fine line between negotiation and manipulation - manipulation having been the auto response for a very long time, so I appreciate your response I do now hope I treat people like the multifaceted beings that they are. I feel very lucky to have had my daughter - discovering giftedness has made me a much nicer person I suspect!

After reading the School as a Rope idea, I have been thinking about how outcomes in these groups are affected by parenting, mentors, role models, and financial circumstances. I never seemed to be in the right place at the right time to find a mentor in college, graduate school, early work environments. Perhaps it was my personality, but I have always thought it was my timing being off.

I have to again promote the movie Louder than A Bomb. The kids in that movie were amazing - 1s, 3s, School as a Ropers.

Any 2s out there?

I also wondered if the 2E folks ended up in Group 2 more often.But I know one who is definitely group 1. And some of my family members used their 2Eness to 'cancel' their giftedness and become group 3ers.

So many Jewels Giftodd! I think your ability to read people is serving your DD well - Go Giftodd and to all those who caught the Thrown Rope!

1.Wishing (wishful thinking) disappointed in the end.-idealistic?
2.Self-conscious (not the same as self-aware)
3.Contented, serene
4.Escaping into school as a fantasy world