Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy emotions and expectations

Reading Ruf's book, I think DD3 is somewhere in the level 3/4 range. I think she was a couple of months behind the milestones in level 5, but I think she is amazing, in the Bill Clinton/Barack Obama league of brains.

I think I have mentioned about the gifted elementary school at Hunter College in Manhattan. This year they cut off the entrance to the second round evaluation at 98th percentile of the SB (I think SB4). I know 3 kids that got into the second round. There were 278 kids for 50 spots, about 6:5 ratio girls to boys. My friend's son did not make it or even get waitlisted. It is hard for her not to feel like a sentence was placed that your son really isn't gifted.

In this forum, there is part competiveness, part protective, that you want your child to be uber great. Sometimes it is hard to separate the emotions from the reality. How exactly does our child learn, how gifted, in what way gifted. Ruf is right, there is no one way, no one gifted identity. We have topics about homeschooling is best, but Ruf says homeschooling is not good for the extrovert, that homeschooling is bad for the extrovert. Haven't even seen that mentioned here on the homeschooling dialogue.

I am finding it hard to be objective about DD3 and her path a lot of the time.

Just a post for my need.

Ren

Wren,
Please tell your friend, from me, that gifted comes in all flavors. If gifted is about having special educational needs, then a child who has educational needs that aren't being met, belongs in this category. Is it true that someday schools maybe set up in flexible ways that met the learning needs of all children. Will there be no more gifted children at that time? I sure hope so. There will be plenty of talented children instead. This world needs every drop of it's human talent, and it's human compassion, and it's human imagination.

Sleep well,
Grinity

It's important to remember that all sort of gifts aren't measured by IQ tests. Good friends of ours have a child the same age as our son. She is a musical prodigy. It isn't anything that would show up on an IQ or achievement test. That doesn't mean it's any less important or magical. The same goes for everything else that IQ tests don't measure, like sports, visual arts, or social intelligence.

Tara

I have found that DDs educational needs change from time to time. We are now considering homeschooling, because brick and mortar schools don't seem a good fit. But I anticipate that she will go to typical HS at some point. It's great that you have discovered your child's giftedness this early. Many of us thought all children develop at this rate and some (read:me) still doubt it despite exceptional test results. Last night while driving home, DDs conversation went from chromosomes to Jonas Brothers (a popular boy band) and I participated equally. On one hand I see the giftedness, and then the little girl emerges.

Also, I would keep in mind that some child are brilliant, but may not exhibit it in a typical school setting. Giftedness doesn't always mean a child is a well rounded scholar. They may be gifted in one area and struggle with another.

Ren-

I don't think people on this board are competitive. Or were you talking about the school?

Deborah Ruf's kids are all grown. She is probably not in tune with the sheer numbers of homeschoolers now, or how instantly they can connect through the internet and today's easier access to information. I will not pooh pooh your concern- it is a valid one. My husband and I were worried about what would happen to our extrovert when we brought him home to learn. Seven years later, I cannot believe this was an issue! My son is still a social kid who has many friends. He takes part in a book club, theater group, sports, scouts, and more. Our homeschool support group meets several times a month and there are always impromptu playdates happening.

The outgoing child absolutely can slake his thirst for companionship while homeschooling. In fact, he may cast a wider net this way, and is not restricted to the same 27 other kids day in and day out.

I agree with Lorel's comment about the competitiveness. I find this board to be incredibly supportive, not at all competitive. In fact, it's somewhat comforting for me to see how hugely more advanced so many of the other children are on this board. And, whether I'm looking at Ruf levels or test scores, DS is what DS is, and there's nothing I can or would want to do about it other than support him for both his strengths and weaknesses - and before I happened on this board, I didn't know that he needed support for his strengths.

I feel for you, Ren, however, living in the ultra-competitive world of NYC. Hard not to get drawn into it when people, like my friends, parents of twins, are advised to apply to 10-15 preschools to ensure at least one acceptance.

Lorel - I totally agree with you. We are close with a couple of homeschooling families. If anything, I think these kids get more positive social opportunities than DS does at his public school. Homeschooled kids we've been in contact with are unusually articulate and socialize well with kids and adults. I don't think everyone can or should homeschool. And it's certainly not best if you don't want to do it! I'm not sure if we will. But I don't think having an extroverted child is necessarily a deterrent.

I don't think the board's at all competitive either? At least I don't look at it at that way at all. I love seeing what a wide range of GT looks like. This is one of the few places I can talk about DS with all his strengths and weaknesses.

I do feel for you Wren! I'm not sure we as a family could live in such an intense atmosphere in preschool. We are put off by the attitudes some parents have about our local GT magnet. Some families act like their children are at Harvard. And this is NOT a hard school to qualify for (92nd perceptile on NNAT or portfolio and random lottery - we did not get in due to lottery). The vast majority of kids are MG. We're not actually sure our DS would even be well served there at this point.

The fact that more girls than boys qualify says a little something about the process to get in this school. It is really picking the kids that test and interview well on particular days at age 4. I'm sure they turn away many kids that are "very" GT. I'm quite sure our DS (who we think is a level 4 kind of kid) would have failed miserably at this type of process at that age! He would not jump through other people's hoops at 3 and 4. This is why he didn't go to a Montissori. He was miserable on a 1 hour tour we took. The teacher literally looked down her nose and said our son wasn't a fit for her school. I was actually fine with that. It was quite obvious he wasn't! He went to a play based/social preschool which was SO much better for him. He hasn't been scarred in the least acadmically.

I think going into that process, you really have to know it's not a reflection on your child or parenting at all if they don't get in! I do know it hard to keep perspective and stay objective! I have gotten somewhat better at it in the past year. And supportive communities like this one help a lot. .

Ditto what kimck, questions and Lorel said--I've never seen competitiveness here. If anything, I've seen moms finding an outlet to *complain* about how hard these kids are, not bragging and certainly no one wishing they were smarter (and thus harder)! Most of the sharing I've seen has been for the purpose of helping another parents or making someone feel better about their own kids, never worse! Any "bragging" has been of the celebratory type, the "share the joy" variety, which we all like.

As for anyone on the forum saying that HSing is "best," I don't think that's happened. I certainly wouldn't ever say that. There is no one-size-fits-all solution.

HSing is a valid educational option for HG+ kids--one of many!--and since it's the one that's most unfamiliar to people, we tend to spend a good bit of time explaining about it when people ask. That's only natural.

However, when people ask about it, we try to present the pros and cons. There are a lot of pros, for sure! But there are also some cons. I always mention that I'm finding that as I am an introvert, I need more alone time than I'm getting right now. I have also mentioned some minor problems with my son not wanting to do his math, and if you're both mom and teacher, that sort of mild rebellion is an issue you must deal with. So I *know* I've shown some cons as well as pros.

The truth is, though, there aren't a whole lot of cons to HSing, at least not in my experience, and I'd say Lorel and others would say the same, especially when weighed against the pros and cons of our respective former bricks-and-mortar schools. That doesn't mean HSing is "best" for everyone. It isn't, I'm sure! But in some cases, it is a better option than traditional school settings. Each parent has to weigh the options and decide what fits that family's situation.

I know many extroverts who are having a glorious time with HSing. They just do a lot more out-of-the-house activities and have a lot more playdates than my semi-introverted child and I (very introverted!) have.

What would be hardest, I would think, would be to have a highly extroverted child and a highly introverted parent/teacher. That would be a very difficult situation, and I don't think I'd recommend HSing to that person, at least not unless the parent could regularly drop her child off for activities and/or had lots of help with childcare.



What is your need, exactly? Objectivity? I'm not sure I understand. I'd be happy to try to help, but I'm not sure I know what exactly you're asking.

Hmmm...I don't think I've seen a single thing that you've posted that seemed competitive, Dottie. You like numbers, but that's not the same thing as competing. That's more like information-gathering. If anything, I'd say you *downplay* the strengths of your kids. (I can say that as someone who has suffered GT denial and therefore can see it in others! ) Certainly you don't talk about how great your kids are and judge the kids of others to be "less worthy" or something. That's not you at all.

I'd also say that no one here rejoices when someone's child doesn't get into DYS. We mourn, because we know the parent wouldn't have filled out the lengthy application if that child didn't need the help and support just as much as our own child does. There are a couple of people I'm still hoping will retest and reapply later because I'm sure their kids are qualified! That's teamwork, supportiveness, not competition.

I guess I look down on hothousing. But I dislike hothousing precisely because it's all about parent-driven competition rather than about letting the child be him/herself.

<shrug>

Either way, I don't think you're into competitive parenting, Dottie. I just don't see it.

OK, I agree there is a great deal of support, but I still stand by "part competitive" and I think that is natural. Because we have had to suppress it dealing with parents of MG or ND kids.

And, as I am entitled to my opinion, you will of course be all supportive of that right?

Ren

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion.

I guess I'm just wondering if you actually see competitiveness here or if you just expect to see it? Two very different things!

Frankly, if I actually saw competitive parenting going on by most people here, I wouldn't stick around. I find that sort of thing to be highly distasteful!

And I'd be right there with you! That is just not where we're at.

I too was surprised to hear that there is competitive parenting on this board. This is a wonderful supportive board with many knowledgeable people. People mention what their kids do but here and there and it's actually a good thing that they feel comfortable enough to talk about it.

As for homeschooling. I am not sure I've seen anywhere written that homeschooling is the best way to go for all gt kids. Everybody tries to come with what their believe is the best situation given their current situation and option. Right now we believe that p/t homeschooling would be the best thing for our son. Last year we thought that Montessori was the answer for next few years. A year from now we may be looking into something else. Having this place to see what others did, what can or cannot be easily done, how to negotiate with schools or how to try homeschooling is priceless.

NYC is a place full of wonderful opportunities, but it also looks like a stressful place when it comes to being admitted to the right preschool or the right K. It sounds like lots of competitive parenting is going on there.

Ren, to me it seems like you are really stress about next year application process. You remember what things increase an IQ number and by how much. Your DD is only 3 and you had her already tested twice. You know how kids who attended your DD school usually score on IQ test.

Nobody can be reduced to one single number and at the end of the day it's not about if our kids are in the best school or homeschooled, but if they are happy. Higher IQ doesn't make people more happy.

LOL, Ren... I am very supportive of your opinion. It may seem that discussing IQs and test results here is competitive, but to me this is the only place to post them and discuss them. The fact that many here have much higher scores, doesn't take away from DDs intelligence or giftedness. The more I learn about testing, grade skips, acceleration etc. from others, I have a better idea how to advocate for DD.

I used to belong to other parenting boards and telling there that my DD was reading fluently by 4 didn't go over really well. It was mentioned that I must be a stage mom, or "stretching the truth" when all I wanted was to know other parents of GT children. Here I don't have to worry about being odd (at least for that reason). I hope you can find the information you need without feeling a competitive spirit.

Addressing the NYC school choice thing. Right now it is highly competitive for a spot in a premier choice school -- public, private, unless you live in the district, you can go to the Gen ED but that totally excludes you from any gifted program.

The reason DD3 has been tested twice, and I have addressed before, she had to test last year as part of an admission process for a gifted preschool at Columbia but she was a month too young and was not considered. The tester happened to also test for the gifted elementary school. We thought it was worth the investment to do the test again for the preschool to get her used to the tester and also curious to see how she was tracking.

Because of my own history, and I have stated this many times, I am obsessive about making sure of her challenges so she does not lose motivation. All those things that Ruf talks about happened to me. Luckily a career path opened up that motivated me but my college years were a total wash. I don't remember anything I learned.

But I don't want to push a situation and have expectations that imagined. gratified3 echoed my sentiments: that when it is your child, it is rather scary and intimidating.

I still wonder why there wasn't anything addressed in Ruf' book about linear and non-linear learning and its role in levels of giftedness. I see that in some articles I have found. Maybe it is in another book.

Ren

I agree. I think there's a huge difference between competing--that is, trying to one-up the people around you--and just being honest and open.

I don't think my older son is the smartest of the kids discussed here. And you know what? I LOVE that! This is one of the only places I've found where he isn't the smartest, where the stuff he does isn't met with the kind of disbelief and disdain that Mommy2myEm describes, where I can talk openly.

Heck, this is just about the only place I know of where I can worry aloud that my DS3 might have an LD because he's not reading at age 3.5, and not sound like a crazy person! Who else is going to understand that?

Even on other GT boards, the stuff our kids can do is extreme. Where else can we talk about it without appearing to be engaging in competitive parenting, when that's not our intention.

You must find peers if you are to escape competitive parenting. I think that's what we have here.

Ok, since we are talking about "bragging", I am going to do it.

My dd got her report card yesterday. She got thirty outstandings (highest she can get) and one S+ (satisfactory plus). I was very proud of her achievements and told her so. I emphazised that she had worked very hard to get those grades and she should feel very proud of herself.

As parents, we are always so afraid to appear that we are bragging. I was proud of my daughter. Not because I think she is better than anyone else. I am happy when other people's children's achieve a goal, give a wonderful performance or win a medal/trophy. I have cheered for newphew's and nieces and we try to go to our school's plays and concerts and we are right there cheering and being happy for all these talented children.

Yet I don't feel comfortable sharing this great pride I felt when I saw my dd teacher's comments about my daughter being "sweet to the other children" or her being "a natural leader" "great scientist" "hard working" "focused" with other parents in my dd school because I am afraid they will hear "my kid is better than yours".

I am capable of rejoycing in other kids' victories and feeling bad when other kids struggle and none of it takes away from my child's victories or failures. There is a child in my dd school who is a musical genious. When we heard him play his violin in the winter concert, our hearts filled with joy. We attended the senior play a few weeks ago and we (my daughter and I) were impressed with the amount of talent found amongst children.

Anyway, I think we should have a place where "bragging" is not only ok but welcomed. We are not competing or being competitive. We want to share joy and success with other parents who "get it". So please, post about your kids great achievements. I for one will rejoyce with you.

It's great, isn't it? A place where my child is one of the many, pretty much a regular kid.

Bianca, congratulations on the lovely report card. You must be so proud.

I do get the joke, Ren - sweetie, but I'm going to answer seriously, just in case -

I don't support every opinion that comes down the pike, even here, which I full intend to be a supportive place. I want to support you in your living and your parenting, not nescessarily in your opinions, KWIM?

How many of us had to overcome our own opinions to be able to parent our special needs kids? I know I did! Most of us, I'll bet.

Also,
I remember when you posted this:

So I'm wondering how much of this is your actual opinion, and how much of this is 'for debate.'

What exactly do you want? I want to help if I am able. I expect you to help me when you are able. One way you can help me know is to decide to act 'as if' this was a safe and supportive place for you, as an experiement, and see what happens.

Big Warm Smile,
Grinity

Ditto both comments, LMom!
Sometimes I say that DS11 is on an 'alternate developmental path.'

Good on 'ya for bragging, Bianca! That's exactly the kind of stuff I personally LOVE to hear! You have every right to be proud, and I'm glad you're sharing that happy pride with us.

I actually wrote an article about bragging on our kids for my local mom's club newsletter a couple of years ago. Basically, my premise was that if our kids only ever hear us complaining about them, then that's what they'll think we think of them. Far better that they hear us saying the nice stuff, too.

So brag on! I'm happy that we can all rejoice together!

Brag away, Bianca! I love having a forum where we can "brag" -- read, share successes -- about our children without being ostracised for having a child that is so outside the norm. Truth is, many parents feel threatened by kids like this and you really can't share without being seen as "braggy" or "pushy."

And even on boards for gifted children, this is the least competitive I've seen. The sharing of numbers is for information and insight. Do I compare ds to others? Well, sure -- it's impossible not to. But do I feel like anyone thinks their child is better than mine, with higher test scores or a DYS acceptance or whathaveyou? Certainly not. I really like the community feel of this board, which is informative and jam-packed with brilliant children without being condescending to newcomers.

But now I'm curious, Ren -- have you visited gifted boards that are *less* competitive than this one? I'd be interested to check it out, because the other gifted board that I'm a regular on is much more "one-uppity" than this, though still not terrible.

I haven't visited any other boards. I tried the hoagie board but didn't find recent postings, maybe I looked in the wrong place.

But I am surprised the nerve I hit. Thank you Dottie for your comment.

There is a section called Educational Advocacy. Advocacy requires that we push, sometimes hard to get what our children need. We push because we believe our children require those special attentions based on "high" scores and higher achievement on milestones. If that doesn't require some competitiveness, then I missed the boat on what it means. If we were not competitive, we would not be on this board, we would not care how the education system worked.

It is by its very nature, our need to be competitive for the resources our children need.

How's that for rebuttal? Now we could keep this up, but I am getting bored. I am more interested in my other comment about non-linear and linear learning styles and their correlation with giftedness and motivation.

Ren

I'm going to add my two cents.

I love hearing people talk about the achievements of their children, not so much to hear about the child but to see parents taking joy in their children. A joy shared is a joy multiplied.

When I read 'competitive', I think of winning & losing. When I read 'advocate', I think of someone promoting another's interest, but not at the expense of any one else's loss. Semantics, I suppose.

When I have more time, I may contribute to the non-linear/linear learning styles. That is a fascinating topic but requires more than a 2 cent contribution.

"But I am surprised the nerve I hit"

Are you, really?

"It is by its very nature, our need to be competitive for the resources our children need."

-no


"How's that for rebuttal? Now we could keep this up, but I am getting bored. I am more interested in my other comment about non-linear and linear learning styles and their correlation with giftedness and motivation."

Do you realize that this comes across as somewhat hostile?

Incog

You see, you are competing for a spot in Hunter, but honestly what would I compete for? Does is matter if DS3 is less or more smart than your daughter? Not at all. It won't change how I will parent him or what choices I make for him.

Yes, I want to get the best possible education/situation for both of my children, but again this has nothing to do with how kids on this board do. As a matter of fact I wish them the best and the better they do the better for me because if they can get into a good position perhaps my kids can to. There is lots of to learn from the success stories. Of course I compare my kids to others but more to match them with stories. I have no intention to compete with them. What good would that be for? To make me feel better?

I don't compete with my friends either, there is no point in it. DS5 is clearly ahead of their children. I would be thrilled if their children were more like my sons because I would have somebody who really understands and better match for playdates (at least 2 of my friends have gt kids which does help). It's actually hard to be an outsider and I already worry about the homeschooling group.

DS5 can get to any of the schools around here if there is an opening and whatever schools we considered have open spots, there is no need to be competitive in that either. Plus nothing is based on scores.

Or look at Dottie or Grinity. Their sons are accelerated but did it mean they had to compete with others? If Dottie's son is advanced by another grade in math does it matter to other kids in his school? Perhaps a little bit since here you have a successful skip and hopefully better chance for another child to follow in his footsteps. Has she had to advocate to get where she is? Oh, yes. Has she had to compete for it? I don't think so.

I didn't even compete with others here to get to DYS. That's based on scores not on spots available. If somebody else's child gets in then it's a wonderful news and I am really happy for them. I hope those who didn't make it will get in eventually because lots of people could benefit from their service.

Just my two cents

I have to admit that I was perplexed after I read the initial post. I stayed quiet b/c I thought I�d missed something being new to this forum.
I just wanted to say that I wouldn�t participate in a competitive group (esp. when it relates to children). The reason I continued to read posts on this site was because of the cooperative and supportive tone. It�s nice to have found a place where I can share stories about DS2 w/o worrying that I�m going to offend another parent or make them feel bad. It�s also nice to be able to share the joy I experience with DS.
I do not think DS is smarter or as smart as other children acknowledged here. And that�s okay b/c I�m not in a competition with anyone nor do I feel like they are in competition with me. I really thought the point of this sight was to share experiences and information with others. At least that�s the feel that I�ve gotten so far.
I am grateful for the resources I have found on this site.

This all leads me back to the Carol Dweck profile on mindset. The person with the idea that intelligence is fixed ends up being threatened by the success of others. The person who believes that intelligence can be developed finds inspiration in the success of others. Here's the diagram, which I have shared here before:

http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2007/marapr/images/features/dweck/dweck_mindset.pdf

Thanks, Lorel. It's already on our fridge!

The majority of posters who have been here for some time feel that this is a supportive environment, and not a competitive one. So please put down your scorecard. Relax, and get comfortable!

OK, now I'll try to be quiet.

This is my exact response as well. Well put, 'Neato!

I'll also echo Grinity's question, which is the same one I asked before as well, but you still haven't addressed: what is it you're looking for, Ren?

You said you started this thread because of some need of yours, but you never explained that need. Were you really asking for help...or is there something else going on here?

My dd's swim coach was talking to the kids in her team the other day. She complimented them on their behavior at their last swim meet. Some of the children that were not competing come just to cheer their team (even though the competition started at 8:00 a.m). Most of the children that came to compete stayed thru the entire meet even after they had completed their events. We had the loudest, most visible team.

She told the children that she was proud of the ribbons they had won, but she was even prouder of how they had supported each other and how they had cheered on their teammates on. She told them that was being in a team meant.

I think that we as parents of GT children are a team. We cheer each other thru advocacies and grade skips. We support each other thru difficult situations with the schools. We cry together when we see a child in a bad school situation. Yes, we are ready to fight for our children, but not each other. We are a team and a victory for one of our children is a victory for the team.

I have also found this site incredibly informative and supportive. As for you Dottie, you are a well of information. If ever we need a question on numbers, you are our gal. Grinity, your post are always uplifting and incredibly fun to read.

I couldn't have said this better. I concur!

Kcab-

Too much pie talk! You're making me hungry now!

LOL, no wonder I like you. You appreciate disorganized people! C'mon over any time, I'll kick a path from the door and we can have tea.

(Nah, my house isn't that bad, it just feels that way sometimes!)

Kcab and bianca (and others too) - lovely posts!

And Lorel - you're homeschooling 4 kids. I truly HOPE your home looks lived in! Mine certainly does.

Ah, but oldest ds is away at college, so I only have the excuse of three at home. Does that still give me enough to warrant a messy house?

I have ten or twelve different types of tea. I'll put on the cyber-kettle!

You have a DH, too, yes? He usually counts as two kids when it comes to messiness! LOL!

Nice selection I have a shelf or two full of boxes of loose tea. As a matter of fact I am drinking my morning cup of tea right now.

I have lots of tea too and am enjoying a cup right now also. And I LOVE pie (all types) so can I come too???

EandC

My mouth still hurts from my surgery. Can you stick my pie in a blender first?

Ha - me too! I have no idea how much tea I have crammed in my cupboard. I just had a cup!

And DH counts as at LEAST 2 kids in my house.

LOL! My DH is better about cleaning up than I am most of the time, so I really can't complain. (But that doesn't mean that I won't!)

Winter vacation in Feb.? How interesting! Is it year-round school so you get chunks of time off frequently? I'm very curious, kcab!

Mmmmm! Cinnamon bread! I could eat that without the blender!

Interesting. Thanks for the scheduling explanation. Maybe it's a ski break?

We midwesterners only get the usual suspects when it comes to holidays.

Thanks for the virtual treats. And calorie-free, too!