Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments Why can't teachers be more organized?

I've been getting more and more frustrated with my older son's fourth grade experience. It seems like I spend an unreasonable amount of time helping him not with his work, but with organizing his work and determining what he is supposed to be doing. He does have an agenda and I would say he's about 90 - 95% accurate and complete with it. Sometimes he forgets to bring a book or assignment home, but overall he does OK.

But issues come up. He'll have it written down that there's a science test, but it's not always obvious what the topic is. And there's not always advance notice. He has a spelling test every Friday and he doesn't get the words until Monday. They are supposed to post them online but they don't, they just leave a broken link. He's an exceptionally poor speller and Tuesdays are very busy, so it's a little tight. He also has a grammar test every Friday, but there is no text. We just have to go off the worksheet(s) he did earlier in the week. So the resources at his disposal are limited to the worksheet examples. Occasionally some information about something will be posted online, but it's very hit or miss. They send a weekly update home, but I get it on Tuesday or Wednesday - halfway through the week! These little things add up and the result is that his homework requires a lot of supervision and administrative effort on my part.

I've been drinking the Cool Aid and going along with the idea that kids need to learn to be organized to be prepared for high school and college. But I'm just not buying that anymore. I am certain that my son is learning less because instead of discussing topics with him, I am sorting through worksheets and notebooks and trying broken links.

I recently finished a grad degree and taught some undergraduate classes in a different discipline at the same time. In EVERY course I taught or took there was a syllabus that listed the topics in the order of presentation, the number of tests and the topics to be included (test dates were usually provided too), what the expectations were for homework, how grades would be calculated, and what texts would be used. There was always a rough timeline, and often a very precise schedule. Every instructor, myself included, also posted this online and kept it current. Topics for exams and homework assigments were also posted online. It would be almsot unthinkable for an instructor not to do all this and the syllabus was required of all instructors. So clearly, writing stuff in an agenda and keeping trach of test dates that are moving targets are NOT a skills that are required for success in college.

So why don't elementary school teachers do this for each subject? Prior to this year's public school experience I sympathized with teachers' gripes about dealing with students whose parents don't support their learning at home, but I don't anymore. They make it too hard. I am a well-educated, very involved, very knowledgeable parent with a manageable work schedule. My kids are smart and have had the advantage of excellent educations prior to this year and have recieved a lot of enrichment and exposure to topics at home. But I am starting to consider my son's public school education to be an imposition on my time that I resent. I can't imagine how a parent with less ability, resources, time, and support would handle all this stuff.

I have to admit, I am probably only talking about 5 - 20 minutes a day. But if I had that time back to spend on piano or some math enrichment or even just folding laundry with my kids, I would consider it a better use of time.

I am really surprised that elementary teachers are subject to standards so much lower than university level instructors. Why is this? Wouldn't it make more sense to give young children MORE help staying organzied, not less?

ETA: I know I sound ridiculously cranky. I think it's the ratio of getting organized time to learning time that's got me so worked up. My son is learning almost nothing at school, so I'm frustrated that I'm obligated to support it.

I hear you. There doesn't seem to be much coordination between my 8 year olds teachers. Its frustrating. The math, language arts, reading, and homeroom teachers all use different organizational systems and types of binders and planners. Some days dd has way too much homework and other days she doesn't have any. The homeroom teacher wants dd to do the regular spelling homework, but she is actually in a spelling group with a different grade that has its own homework. So far dd has been good natured about all this and wanting to please everyone, but I am starting to think that the homeroom teacher at least is taking advantage of her good nature. The situation could bring out the worst aspects of perfectionism and the desire to please others. I don't like the idea that my 8 year old goes to bed several nights a week feeling like she hasn't gotten everything done.

Conferences are next week. So hopefully this can improve.

Jane, I don't think you are being cranky. Elementary school teachers go to school to learn how to teach. University instructors often have no background in teaching before they teach university classes. So I would expect the elementary school teacher to be more organized too!

Hi Cricket3,

I agree with you 100% - that is the way it is, and according to current practices my standards are unreasonably high. But why? I've done it - it's really easy to just make a list of this stuff. I don't understand why it's not required of all elementary teachers. I think in the medium to long term it would save the teachers time and the benefit to kids and parents would be huge.

That's an interesting question. I really can't answer at the elementary level but I am in academia so I can tell you the perspective from that point of view. Most professors I know have more time to prepare for their classes. If you are at a big university they might have 1-2 classes a semester and if they've been around long enough they've already taught those classes a couple of times and have all their notes prepared ahead of time. They also have a herd of grad students to correct homework/tests for them and answer students' questions.

An elementary teacher would be with his/her students all day and have to do all prep at night. Also if schools are expecting them to differentiate within the classroom a set syllabus wouldn't work because in theory they'd have to vary this every year. I can definitely understand your frustration but I'm not sure if comparing elementary teachers to grad school professors is quite the same.

I see this as more of a once a quarter deal, with minor maintenance weekly. I have done it and I don't think it is an overly time-consuming task (especially since elementary teachers are following district and school manadated curriculums, aren't they?). It may be somewhat time consuming to learn how to update a website, but I think that should be a required skill. I may be underestimating the time required - esp. since each teacher is covering several subject, each with it's own set of requirements and topics. But shouldn't they have teaching plans for all this already? The additional effort would be incremental. I would love to hear an elementary school teacher's perspective on this. I suspect I am missing something because obviously there are many teachers wearing two hats - parent and teacher.


I suspect people really underestimate the difficulties elementary school teachers face because of being "on" all day. It may be am 8-3 job with summers off, but they aren't doing their holiday shopping online when their boss isn't around or hopping out to a dentist appointment midday.

JaneSmith-
I don't think you're being unreasonable or that your expectations are too high. I'm a middle school administrator. My teachers all have 150 to 180 kids a day, teach at least two separate subjects and have 45 min of prep time in one day. In contrast, my son's elementary teacher has 20 kids in one class all day, teaches 4 subjects, has 2 45 min preps a day and 2 hours on Friday solid.

My teachers are required to post homework and tests online in advance, coordinate with other teachers so they do not have more than one test in a day, plan cross curricular projects at least once a quarter, grade their own papers without parents or a TA and enter them in an online gradebook no more than one week after the work was assigned. Parents have 100% access to the gradebook 24/7.

Most of my teachers have been at the school 5+ years. It is possible!

I share your frustration because I walked into my son's class last week to volunteer (set schedule) to hear "Oh I forgot you were coming. I don't have a plan for this morning so we'll wing it."

Hi CAMom -

I do have access to online grades, which is helpful But they are not updated that frequently (I'm pretty sure my son's homeroom teacher has only done it 2x this year). That's not a big deal, but I find it difficult to cross reference the items described with the items I've seen in the agenda and that is frustrating. A master list describing assignments using consistent language would be helpful. The grades aren't my main concern, though. It's getting the information I need to facilitate my son's learning.

Thank you for your perspective. The woman who sits next to me just told me that a private school she is looking at posts all homework assigments online. What she was describing sounds similar to your school.

What I meant by the gradebook is more that parents constantly hold teachers accountable! You would not believe how many emails my teachers get if they don't grade a test and post it online within just a few days :-) It's just expected of them that it's part of their job. It's not an "extra" skill to be organized, efficient and provide parent contact regularly.

FWIW, my school is a public charter.

That is extremely interesting, because my other son is at a charter and the culture there is more like what you describe. We haven't been there long, but already I've been surprised at some of the emails parents will sent out - if they see an issue they will address it aggressively and hit reply all! The parents at this school are involved in coaching academic teams, raising money for the school, and organizing supply drives.

At my other son's school it seems like the parents (actually just the mothers) are extremely willing volunteers, but nobody ever criticizes anything and all the volunteer work is stuff like organizing class parties and buying presents for the teachers and carving pumpkins.

Very, very different cultures. I think I fit better with the complainers. They may be demanding, but they care about the things I care about and we are thrilled with the school!

I don't think your expectations are high at all, if that's what you are used to. Our school is the same way.... 24 access to grades, teacher's post them within a few days, weekly letters from teachers and from the school. I expect it because that is what we are used to. When things don't work on the webpage, it is annoying. we too, have spelling lists posted weekly in advance and when they aren't posted or there isn't a newsletter on the day we normally get it, I wonder where it is. I don't think you are off in your expectations if that is the way things are supposed to be! We all email the teachers with questions without hesitation as well, at our school. It's accepted and welcomed (maybe they don't all like it, but the school has always said you are free to whenever, so that is what we all do.)

I hate to say this, but we haven't seen it get any better in middle school. If anything, it's gotten worse.

Dd12 is an 8th grader and has been having ongoing issues with her literacy teacher, whom she loves but who doesn't give them due dates for virtually anything.

I fear that broaching it at conferences has shot her in the foot. I told him that she's having a hard time prioritizing b/c she doesn't know when any of his assignments are due beyond the "sometime this quarter" or "within the next two weeks" type of stuff he's giving them. For that reason, she's putting his things down as low priority and finishing work for other classes first. More than once she's been caught off guard when she finds out that his big essay is due tomorrow suddenly.

His assertion is that she should know that she needs to be working on it b/c she got it a week ago, for instance, even if he didn't tell them until the last minute when it was due. When I told him that it wasn't working that way and she's winding up writing the whole thing the night before at 8 p.m., he kind of insinuated that she isn't giving him her best effort and he may grade her more harshly in the future.

I believe that the exact quote was something to the effect of how well she had done on a recent essay (an A) until he found out that it had been written the night before it was due at which point he said that he would give her a "D for effort." I really hope that doesn't translate into her getting Bs or Cs on future essays b/c they aren't massively better than the quickly written one.

She really is an excellent writer and, despite last minute work that is stressing her, she turns out quality work on short notice.

Cricket2, this is nothing short of outrageous. If this happened at the college level, the student would have grounds for a grievance procedure against the professor.

We'll be monitoring her grades closely. If he grades her more poorly based on his perception that she did the work too quickly, I will complain to the GT coordinator, who loves dd, and the administration if needed.

I think the elementary school teachers are not providing you with a syllabus because they aren't required to. I taught at a community college, and we were required to turn in our syllabus by the day the class started. Our public schools have a curriculm set by the sd, and they have pacing guides for at least some of the classes. I don't know if you can get your hands on that info though.

Some teachers are just more organized than others, so some years you lose out. I do know that the teachers at the school where my dd go have 45 minutes of planning daily plus another 45 minutes twice a week. Unfortunately, they spend a lot of that time in meetings, going over standardized test scores curriculm changes, meeting with parents, etc.

I think it's reasonable to ask for the spelling words a week early.

Exactly!

Not to hijack this thread, but this quote got me. It is something I've been thinking too. I've gone in with a very "cooperative/teamwork" attitude to help my son in school. I've gotten back a clear message, "do it my way or get out." The [elementary] teachers I'm dealing with DO NOT want anything from the parents except cookies, gifts, and kudos. They don't want to work with me at all. I'm become bitter in case you can't tell.

All it seems to take is one kid for whom the system really doesn't work to make a parent bitter. I'm in that same spot with dd10. Although we've gotten some accommodations that are better this year, she still doesn't fit and dealing with that has made me hyperaware of how flawed our GT identification and services are such that I rant and derail threads regularly with my irritation about both.

Cricket, this is spot on. Document everything. Write down what he said to you, in ink with the date on it, and put it in a binder with everything she already has from him this year. Write down any further interactions and date them. Your record-keeping can be a key negotiating item.

DeeDee

Would you preemptively talk to the GT coordinator or just wait and see what happens with her grades?

I would do something now. Changing your daughter's grade based on how she did the work (rather than on the quality of the work itself) is an ethical violation. The only way he could ethically do this is if 1) he stated ahead of time that the work process was part of the assignment and would be graded, and 2) he had a systematic way of getting the same information for all the students.

Sorry to derail this thread! I don't believe that he is going to change her grade on that assignment. The grades are already in for the quarter. I am more worried that he is going to grade future assignments more harshly if they aren't massively better than the last essay b/c he now thinks that she should be able to write much, much better than she did if that essay only took her 1.5 hours the night before it was due.

I agree with the others about how outrageous this is on its face. If it was me and a teacher changed a grade solely because he found out that the essay was written the night before, I'd be inclined to write to the principal. Unless he made it clear that writing it the night before would trigger a penalty (?) and also penalized others for doing this, he's singling out your daughter.

By refusing to provide a due date, he's also being unprofessional (IMHO!). Projects, whether for school or work, typically have due dates. Why are his special? How can anyone plan until they know the date?

He should also apply the same standards to everyone, which means that he should have a standard for an A, regardless of whether the essay was written in 90 minutes last night or last week.

Just my 2c; sorry you have to suffer this. He sounds like he could be bullying here.

Val

I don't think this is a derailment. I think it's a great example of the lower standards of organization and consistency that I was originally gripping about.

I hesitate to describe is as "lower standards of professionalism" but I can't think of a more neutral way.

Both another mother and I who brought this point up at conferenced (minus calling him unprofessional ), were given the same spiel regarding how "if I was having a house built, I'd want the house to be built the way I wanted it even if it took longer. I'd rather the builder took an extra week than finished it on time and it wasn't done right." While there do appear to be deadlines in his mind by which the assignments must be done (like the end of the quarter maybe), he feels that it benefits the students to not have those deadlines and to just work away at their best product and turn it in when it is done which is, presumably, before the deadline he has in mind (which has not been shared with the kids).

I believe that I used that exact quote in my conversation with the teacher. Dd has too much other homework to be planning to write rough drafts of essays so the final product is her best work if she doesn't even know when the final product is due. If she knew when it was due, then she'd plan in time for work on his stuff too and not focus solely on what feels like more pressing assignments from other classes that have actual due dates.

I get the impression that we are going to be muddling through this year without it being a great year either way. She's having ongoing issues with algebra this year as well due to the fact that the teacher has decided not to teach this year. She spends a few minutes at the start of the class introducing what they are going to be working on and then gives them an assignment to work on independently or in a group and then that's it. She either spends the rest of the period sitting at her desk correcting papers or wanders around the room to see how everyone is doing. It seems to be "independent study algebra" which basically means that dd comes home with stuff she hasn't learned and I run a second class at home once or twice a week to show her how to do the work. She isn't a natural in math where she picks it up with no instruction. That conversation was had with the math teacher as well. I hope that, too, doesn't cause dd problems.

Overall, this year doesn't look like it's going to work too well for dd and she's fortunate that she has me at home to help her deal with this mess.

I have to comment. Has he ever worked in the real world that included having multiple projects, priorities, and resources? I can't believe he doesn't provide a due date.

His example of a builder taking an extra week? I assume he has an unlimited budget to pay this builder an extra week? Ha! The builder is only working on his project, alone? Ha! The builder didn't book any future projects because who knows when this one will be finished? Ha ha!

Is your DD expected to show her drafts?

You'll probably need to set your own due dates for the paper and just assume they are due sooner than later. Get it done and then set it aside.

The teacher's actions and words shows what he believes to be his reality. Would consistent, ongoing, gentle, kind prodding help sway his belief? (so as not to have him feel defensive)

I'm sorry to hear it has been a difficult start.

I really like Jesse's observations about builders.

"Unprofessional" was probably too strong a word and I knew it when I wrote it...shouldn't post when I'm tired.


If he's been using this approach for a long time, it's unlikely that his opinion will be changed.

I like the idea of setting a date independent of him and just moving on.

Perhaps this guy will respond well to a classic snow job: set your own date, go along with what he wants, and ignore the rest. Your daughter could use the experience as a lesson in the a) cockeyed ways that the world can work sometimes and b) how do deal with the lunacy constructively.

Val

*eyeroll* Says the guy who's obviously never had a house built. I know it's not meant to be taken literally, but if he told a builder to "build it the way I want it" with no particular due date, then sprang a due date on the builder at the last minute, he'd have a house that was neither what he wanted, nor finished in the time frame he hoped.

I've never known anyone who worked better without knowing the deadline, for a project that had an actual deadline.

lol! I wish that I had been fast enough thinking to tell him that when he gave me said analogy. Thanks for the laugh, though .

Okay, so I have an update and am really livid with this teacher at this point. Dd's grades last quarter (which just ended) were primarily A+s. She got 100% on all but three assignments. She still had As on all of the non-100% assignments. I, honestly, can't remember a time ever in her school career when she got below an A on any writing or language arts assignment.

Post my conversation with dd's lit teacher, her first writing grade for this quarter is posted on the website where parents can access grades. She got a 75%. Her semester grade is now a B and she has a C for this quarter. I realize that it is early in the quarter and she can easily bring this grade up if the teacher's subjective opinion of her work quality isn't now that she deserves lower grades b/c she was getting As with little work.

I spoke with the another parent whose child is in the same class and who had virtually the same conversation with this teacher at conferences. Her child got an even worse grade than mine on this past writing assignment. I believe that this other child, too, had an A last quarter.

I don't know -- maybe the whole class did poorly on this one assignment, maybe dd had an off day. However, it looks highly suspicious given the timing. I have left a msg for the GT coordinator. Beyond discussing my concerns with her, any thoughts?

It sounds like you might be dealing with a jerk who enjoys exerting power (and his builder comment is ridiculous). I suspect your daughter's grades will be engineered so that she still ends up with an A at the end of the quarter, but only after he "teaches her a lesson" and she learns from his great teaching. So maybe you don't need to do anything?

Does he make the students call him Mr. whatever his first initial is? Sounds like the type.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into this.

I agree with MoN's suggestion to encourage your daughter to ask the teacher what he was looking for.

Will the graded paper be sent home soon so you can see how the teacher arrived at the 75%? If so, I'd suggest waiting to see that, and reviewing to see whether the teacher seems to be unreasonably changing his standard. If he is, I would suggest meeting with him yourself to address the fairness of his grading system (or lack thereof).

I don't know when, or if, we'll see the graded paper. I'll ask dd today when she gets home if she's gotten it back.

Oh wow! Does this sound like my DS10's teachers or what?!? We have been so frustrated with this same thing! Cricket2, are her grades falling in just this one subject? I ask because a few things that you wrote, really stuck out for me . You said since starting middleschool, that things have gotten worse and that she doesn't know when assignments are due etc...This is just a thought, I know you were considering an ADD assessment...My understanding after talking to parents, teachers, students...Is that when you get to middleschool, your need for organization and heightened "executive functioning" skills are in a much higher demand. When our kids are younger, smarts get them by. As they get older and the demands of organization come into play, it gets harder and harder for some kids to keep up. It sounds like she is missing some key points about her assignments...My son was not writing down what the teacher would specifically say/need/want, so assignments became very confusing. Like your daughter, my son was very capable and at the last second, could easily whip out an 'A' paper. The problem was that his grades started to drop because he was missing out writing down specifics. Plus, his teacher is a total control freak, (It sounds like your daughter's teacher is too) which doesn't help matters! In a hurry so sorry if rambling...I just had to respond because your situation was sounding so much like my sons! I feel for you! Let us know how it's going

No, that's my younger dd for whom we are considering ADD. Dd12 skipped 5th grade and has maintained straight A+s with a few As throughout middle school. She had all As and A+s on her first quarter report card. She's an 8th grader now.

The teacher, himself, confirmed that he isn't giving them due dates. He thinks that there is some odd benefit to this and feels that they should just work away at things without knowing when they are due with the realization that they are due sometime.

She has very few grades in for this current quarter, but she has A+s in all other subjects thus far. Dd12 has just finally started using a planner a bit this year but has relied on her nearly photographic memory in years past and has never missed a due date. I don't think that the problem is on her end. Other parents have kids in this class who are having the same issue.

Well, you can tell I've been multitasking just a little too much these days! Haha...Thanks for clearing up Cricket2 ... I hope it gets better for you daughter!

Because they are lazy and can't get fired for being lazy !

This teacher may have alos discovered the ability of the group and has raised the expectations for the group as a whole. Ask for the grading rubric for written assignments. How will the work be assessed. What percentage is subjective and what is criteria based. If it is an advanced course and everyone is getting A's than they need a greater challange without challange we do not advance.