Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy i would rather...

than profoundly gifted and shy kid...

yesterday i went to school with my daughter5 for star student of the week program. She is supposed to read a book as a part of fun excerscise for her being star student, but unfortunately she could not read a sentence. we were boasting all this time she read over 1000 books .so i felt like above.

That is significant flaw in IQ scores, they are as 'dumb' as anybody,

this is also make me wonder we unnecessarily skipped a grade (no problem academically at home ..... may be she is better off with her age kids and be bold rather than shy and stupid in the present class

yannam - the comment you made - on the surface - evokes an initial reaction of, "Oh, that's a terrible thing to say." But the truth is that I could totally identify.

I think someone who has never been a parent of a child with a high IQ cannot relate, because it is easy to focus on the performance part of the equation and overlook the challenges. Being genius, profoundly gifted, or gifted is not some label that gives our kids magical powers to be superhuman; it is simply a complex mix-mash of unique skills ... and weaknesses. And so sometimes we almost sound ungrateful when we comment on the difficulties of parenting a high IQ child.

But the truth is that this tremendously uncomfortable experience can be a launching pad for a new area of growth. Shyness is a core trait and has its benefits (she doesn't need to be in the spotlight, is willing to "hunker down" and get the job done without being distracted, is good in one-on-one settings, etc.), but that doesn't mean that you can't begin to help her take steps in smaller, safer environments where she is challenged to reach out to others, interact with peers, and push herself to communicate. Work with her teacher to perhaps have her share a favorite toy or activity in circle time, get her involved in a community group in some activity that she likes ... little things that help her push herself slowly to build courage for facing larger audiences.

I recently had to give a presentation to over 600 people - all strangers, and I am an extrovert who found the experience daunting at best, but mostly just terrifying. So I cannot imagine how frightening it could be for a wee one to look out at that crowd where she is one of the youngest and not be able to get a peep out.

Hang in there. I won't say it gets easier, but it does get better. We as parents eventually come to the place where we embrace the funkiness of having an extraordinary child and celebrate their accomplishments that others may never understand, even when it is something as small as watching our child do something completely out of their comfort zone.

In my opinion, whoever put your daughter on the spot in such a way simply shouldn't be teaching. Failing in such a circumstance could well have harmed her self-image in a way that will last and take much work to undo. Even if this had not possibly cemented in her mind the idea that she is too shy to perform in front of people, I think it was a terrible idea. My own son was singled out at preschool to the point of reading to the class, and I wasn't thrilled to learn about that either (and I gathered from him that he didn't want to do it, but went along because he was told to).

Oh, yannam, I hear you. D2 is PG, but also very shy. It makes me CRAZY sometimes. She is coming out of her shell some these days (age 15), but I still can't really imagine her in a job interview or similar situation (although - MIRACLE - she decided she liked debate last year, and has eagerly signed up again this year. So there is hope!).

But I don't think my D would be more bold with a different/ younger group of kids. She would still be shy. And bored...

I do not think it was terrible to put the child in that position. DD5 has already done several piano recitals, ballet recitals and gymnastics performances, plus parent day performance at swim camp.

It was so much easier for DD when 3 to jump into the deep end of the pool than for an older child. Getting children to learn when young to be on stage is good practice. I did not think about it but DH had a mother who put him in local music theatre when he was wee and he is great in front of an audience. He is a physician so you wouldn't think it would come up much but he has been a speaker at many conferences and also gives presentations now on hospital innovations.

On another note, I am slowly reading "the Element". One of my bathroom books.,. Anyway, he talks about different kinds of intelligence. There isn't any reason not to work on social intelligence and develop it just as any parent would develop reading and math skills.

Ren

Your argument would be compelling, Wren, except that kids are different, and now the OP's already-shy child has a memorable failure under her belt. She certainly doesn't seem to have been well-prepared for her disastrous outing. Having been a shy kid myself, I don't think that she will magically be better off next time by being humiliated the first time. Putting it in terms of your chosen book, I guess, putting a child in a situation she's not prepared for, resulting in failure, doesn't count as developing social intelligence.

Here's a link from the other "pushy parent" thread (and I am definitely not saying you yourself are pushy, but I think it contains good sense about not forcing kids to do things):
http://giftedkids.about.com/od/nurturinggiftsandtalents/i/nurture_push_2.htm

Wren, I don't think 'earlier exposure' to some kind of performance is the answer here. I don't think it would have made any difference for my D. Older D is a true extrovert, so we were continually surprised (and, like the OP, sometimes embarrassed) by younger D's shyness in various situations. I recall reading that it is possible that there are some genetic variations that increase the odds that someone will be shy -- that isn't going to be changed by making them perform in some way.

Here is a story about my shy D. In 1st grade her teacher was talking about Abraham Lincoln (coming up on President's Day), and D eagerly offered to recite the Gettysburg Address at the post-lunch "sharing" time for the whole school that they have every week. I don't know WHAT she was thinking, really. I mean, she did know the GB Address by heart, but if she had been considering this, she would have known that it also meant speaking in front of 200 people! So the day came, and I slipped into the lunchroom to watch her. She got up there -- and froze. Couldn't utter a word. The lower school principal came over to help her. They got a chair for her to stand on, and the principal put her arm around her. They started the first line into the microphone together, then D finished the rest by herself (to loud applause at the end, especially from the amazed teaching staff). So it ended up being a success, but it was also quite traumatizing for D. Until last year and debate (which has a very small crowd ), she has avoided public speaking as much as possible.

I don't disagree with Wren in that we should provide enough opportunities for our shy ones, but opportunities that are like big bear hugs: comfortable, loving environments.

DD is shy and standoffish. When we were put on a waiting list for preschool at age 2 I enrolled her in a dance class. She stood on the side forever watching the other girls but eventually she joined in and was one of the best in her class. This led to her performance held at a retirement home. I still laugh thinking about that performance. She was deer caught in headlights and didn't perform one bit of her performance, but when the spotlight wasn't on her and she was sitting in the back with her little friends she took over the entire show. She performed everyone else's performances and was jumping up to do the jumps and quickly sitting back down. Then last year she had a proper performance in an auditorium and she did her whole dance with no problems. With this kid we just have to baby step her but she does come out of her shell and surprise us.

yannam - please don't be so hard on your daughter. I bet your daughter is disappointed by her performance as well. She needs all the encouragement she can get.

Ah, but my kid was terrified of the water at 3, despite having been in swimming lessons since ~18 months. And every time she went in the pool, it got worse. So we did nothing until she was 7, and she decided she wanted to swim, and by the end of her first lesson, she could swim (to some extent) - and could jump into the deep end.

I was a shy kid who never wanted to speak in front of anyone (and ran away from dance recital in tears) until I was in high school, and competitive speech class was the lesser of all evils in offered electives. And I liked the preparation enough that I sucked it up and dealt with the "in front of people" part, and I was good at it.

It is not categorically easier to do something scary when you're younger, than when you're older. It's easier to do something scary when you want to do it, than when you don't want to do it.

In college, my upper level classes were all taught using the socratic method and problems were presented orally by every person the class every day. I lost all stage fright after about a month.

It was Matherpiece Theater!

It just takes practice!

All due respect, but this is not the case for everyone. I also went to a college in which every class was discussion and participation was not optional. I transferred to another college after 2 years, because, with rare exceptions, I simply could not make myself talk in class. I had selective mutism as a child, which was not addressed early and became a lifelong struggle. Now, I can force myself to talk most all the time, but only after a great deal of effort.

OP, perhaps your child just has a normal level of stage fright, or perhaps it is something more serious. If you suspect selective mutism or another anxiety disorder, I'd urge you to take it seriously and seek professional help.

I agree that not every child is similar in fears at age 3.

Nurture or nature that a child is fearful or a risk taker, don't know. I know in those personality/career tests, I went off the charts as a risk taker (and I end up a trader) and when my daughter was 9 months, she was sitting with a little girl 11 months. A big wave came in and wash over them. The father of the other girl, standing in the water in front of them, was just as amazed as I that the girls were unfazed by it. And now, a big wave will take wipe her out on the boogie board(all 38 lbs of her) and she will struggle up with sand in hair, nose and inside swim suit everywhere and just say she needs to take a break. When we were at Disney World, Animal Kingdom and some African dance show was going on and they had a bunch of adult women and some teens volunteering to dance with them. My 2.5YO daughter was dancing beside me in the audience. The male dancer came up to her and put out his hand, she took it and started dancing with him towards the front and center of the performance and did a little duet with him.

I do not know what I did to raise a bold child but I do know that will serve her as much as her brain will. But I do think, since she imitates a lot of what she sees DH and I do, that it is more nuture, her experiences with me.

I remember being with my father, he was buying a new car and gave the man a price. It was very low and I was embarrased as only a teenager can be with her father. It was not accepted and we left. That night, the dealer called my father and we were getting a new car at that price. I remember a few other times. Always, embarrased that my father would bargain like that. I have been to markets in Turkey and Morocco and SE Asia and I bargain like a native, thanks to my father. If they don't take my price, I walk away. Without my father, I wouldn't. So how do our children learn this. I didn't start out that way.

Ren

So, Wren... if I read this correctly, you were bold ("off the charts as a risk taker"). And your child was bold. So maybe you guys have the "bold gene", more than it is a nuture thing.

I often think that people who are not shy really don't "get it". It is like telling someone with dyslexia to 'just read' to tell someone who is really shy to just go and perform/talk in public/etc. I was a pretty shy kid, so I know how hard it is.

OP, we have taken small steps over the years. One of them was making a rule a few years ago that D has to order for herself in a restaurant. If she can't talk to the waitress, she can't eat. I am happy to talk over the menu with her and help her decide what to ask for, but she has to make the actual request. This was sooo hard for her. But now she does it. Babysteps...

Intparent, I love this strategy.

I often give my kids small, clearly defined jobs of this kind that stretch their skills. Pay at the supermarket (yes, you have to talk to the checker and make eye contact, but then you get to count the change! . Order audibly in the restaurant. And so on.

If you know what skills they're lacking, you can be strategic about working in real-life practice for those skills, and voila, over time they do improve.

DeeDee

If a child has selective mutism, forcing her to talk tends to make things worse, not better. If my parents had enforced the rule that if I wanted to eat I'd have to order for myself, I'd have starved to death first. Obviously I'm not saying that that is what your child has, intparent, and the fact that it worked means that it almost certainly isn't, but I don't want people to think that it's always a great idea to force kids to talk if they don't want to.

I think that a lot of good points are being made on this thread, but I still can't get over the title 'bold and dumb child.'

Let's continue on a new thread called: 'My daughter's shyness is breaking my heart' or something similar, ok?

You don't find it pleasantly ironic, given that the word "dumb" actually means "unable to talk"?

Shyness, and the ability to speak up, is highly variable and what works for 1 child may not work for another. Most everyone is giving advice based on how they perceived growing up shy. There is nothing wrong with giving a variety of responses, no one is entirely wrong, no one is entirely right. But none of us know how this child will react to any of our advice.
My advice is to follow Grinity's suggestion, because mom's reaction will have the biggest impact on how the child works through any shyness issues.

I agree completely (see title of this message).

I'd also like to point out that gifted doesn't mean shy. I know lots of outgoing gifted people.

Val

Cue Stephen Stills (yes, I'm that old) and "love the one you're with"!

And of course you do--of course you cherish that wonderful little girl with all your heart, of course you embrace her uniqueness, of course you wouldn't change the essential her for anything in the world, of course you can help her find ways to grow and learn and stretch herself--and stretch yourself, too! Parenthood has pulled my heart and head into wild new shapes and sizes, as it does to every parent; it's a hard job, but that's OK. It's a great job--the best!--too.

Go out for an ice cream and have some fun with your sweet little one, who is her own wonderful, unique, precious self!

peace and love from that old hippie
minnie

Grinity

that is exactly what i felt (my title rather than yours), i know there are enough gifted and outgoing people, but those are the ones who are successful in life, that is exactly what i want my child to be... rather than book worm and keep that to herself, who cares if somebody is gifted or not finally it boils down to how successful you are in your life (how much money u earn)....the world is cruel and not for people who are shy and can not speak what they wanted, if you are bold and outgoing ( i am not telling this just because she could not speak during a meeting) everything is at their feet, see all those at managerial positions..
But given choice............. (my title of topic)

The words you used are considered very harsh. There is a cultural and language difference and something has been lost in translation.

Or not.

I agree with what Jesse said. As a very shy child, it was very hurtful to know that my outgoing mom wanted me to be more outgoing. From my perspective, she wanted to fix what wasn't broken. She has never really understood me, no matter how many ways I've tried to explain. I even had her read the chapter on introversion in Silverman's book.

I also think it's important to note that being shy/introverted is not some large barrier to success. (It didn't stop me from becoming a litigator, for example.) I vaguely recall reading that there are quite a few closet introverts amongst successful people.

When she is older, the circumstances of your child's life may motivate her to speak in ways that she's not willing to while she's young. This is something she'll have to do for herself; I would not advise forcing her.

And one last thing, don't overlook the connection between introversion and perfectionism. The more confident a person is about their knowledge of a subject, the easier it is to speak about it.

Must be tough to find the fine line between challenging her to succeed or just boosting her self-esteem with work performance that is too easy for her. �Everybody needs a little bit of both, a balance. �Some people worry too much about the self-esteem, and some people completely disregard other peoples discomfort. �Most people try to find a healthy balance. That sounds like what you're trying to do but �"one class is too hard, one class is too soft". Don't worry, soon you'll find the one that is "just right.". And that too shall pass.

Also, some people buy their kids flashier clothes to help them get past the "break the ice" thing, like for the first week of school. �Sometimes it's easier to come out of your shell in a costume. Try sequined shoes and other bling. �I've heard it works for some people.

Umm. Well, this is just my opinion, but I think it's important to let your child be the person she is and let define success for herself.

Many members of this forum have complained that some teachers and others say "You should just let your kid be a kid!" when they see our preschoolers reading. As though there's only one right way to be a kid --- and it doesn't involve liking math or science or reading before kindergarten. Our kids are being kids: they're being the kids they are. And this is okay.

So maybe you need to let your daughter be the person she is. By this, I don't mean that you should let her have anything she wants. I mean that you should accept her shyness as a part of who she is and don't try to force her into being a person she's not. Gently and positively helping her overcome shyness is good. Dumping on her and saying she'd be better off "dumb" is not.


I'm bold and outgoing and gifted, and I would definitely not say that the world is at my feet. WoW, that would be nice, but it's just not the way life is. I bet even Bill Gates gets frustrated with the system, just like everyone else.

Finally, as someone who works with children who have a hereditary developmental disorder and who could be described by uninformed people as "dumb," I can tell you that their families would give anything if their children were intelligent and healthy. They would not give a hoot about being shy or not. I know that we have our problems with schools, and they're real and they need to be fixed, but they're nothing compared to what families of developmentally disabled children go through.

Just my two cents.

Val

Well put Minnie. Guess I'm one of your fellow tie dye wearers.

The biggest gift we can give our kids is acceptance. The world needs all kinds of people.

Perhaps therein lay the problem. If you don't boast about it then there is no expectation.

Read up on introversion and you may well find the answers to your frustration and at the same time gain valuable insight into your daughters life and personality. Just a thought.

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....troverts_Now_I_Understand.html#Post70489

That's true. �You should never brag on your kids or they'll make you out a liar. �A few months ago I was at the lake at a cook-out and another mother with a kid the same age as mine noticed I didn't put a swim pamper on him under his trunks. �She was all impressed. �I said yeah, it was very easy. �I saw this idea online. �I got a bag of m&m's and bribed him with choosing a "potty candy" every time he went. �Made a big deal out of it, let him chose which color. �He potty trained himself immediately without schedules or reminders. � Wouldn't you know it he wet himself while we stood there talking about it. �:)

But my son does all kinds of things well in the comfort and privacy of our family that I don't think he'd do in front of strangers. �It's normal. �Don't worry about it. �But are you concerned about the shyness holding her back socially when she's advanced academically? �I think you made it unclear like maybe you wished you'd held her back to stay at the top of the class rather than being in the middle of her new class. �Probably not, you did chose to skip her. �

sorry if I am not clear, may be i want my child to more expressive and i wish she (we) put(s) more time into that rather than hours and hours of reading at home. That way our time and her time will be utilized better

what really bothered me ..... reading books is her very best thing. If she can not succeed in that, what about other things......that is the reason i felt like that, still doing so.

[\quote] The more confident a person is about their knowledge of a subject, the easier it is to speak about it. [/quote]

snowgirl

if reading 1000 books is not enough knowledge god only help her......

Snowgirl,

I do not think introverted and shy are synonyms. You can be shy yet want to be with others. You can be bold and like to spend lots of time alone.

I spend a lot of time with DD working on tortoise skills, slow and steady because she is naturally, (again like me) fast. Likes to move fast, likes it when the answers come fast. She hates teh tortoise lessons (we use piano practice for this). She is high energy and it is great for her metabolism. But she will do better in life if she can learn tortoise skills. I tell her if she can use her fast brain and be slow and steady when things are very difficult, she can do anything.

I do not think that is any different than trying to work with a shy child and teaching them to be bolder. So they can get anything, have any options.

Because I tell DD that I do not know what she will want to be, but I give her the skills to have options so she can have a wide range of options.

Ren

When my daughter was born, I was so excited to have someone I could relate to and looked forward to sharing years of communing with a like mind.

When I got over myself and my own expectations, I got to go on one of the most amazing journeys of discovering who my daughter was and why she was so special just the way she is. Once I quit expecting her to be a certain way, I saw how limited my own expectations were.

I would recommend you talk with a family therapist about your own disappointments and expectations before you do damage not only to your relationship with your daughter but to her ability to accept herself.

She has been given a tremendous blessing coupled with challenges; if she does not have your unfailing belief in her, how will she maneuver through the myriad pitfalls that lie ahead without succumbing to the belief that she is a failure because she was born introverted? Introverts often focus better, individuate more rapidly, and can work independently and alone with ease. Introverts normally do not need outside reinforcement to continue high levels of performance. Introverts are often excellent observers. Read up about the Myers-Briggs personality type indicator to find out more about what is valuable about all of the different parts of a personality.

It is short sighted to believe that only extroverts excel in this world; there is a need for all personality types, and what your daughter needs most to succeed as an adult is a strong, supportive foundation at home. Give her that and let go of your own disappointments, and she'll have the best advantage any child could want.

Again, I stress, why is introverted and shy the same?

Don't stress. Introversion is more prevalent among gifted kids, and extroverts are less likely to be shy than introverts. It's not out of bounds to talk about introversion in a discussion of social anxiety.

Your daughter sounds like an extrovert, and she doesn't sound shy; others here seem to have introverted shy kids, or to have been so themselves. Noting such things doesn't amount to a statement that no extroverts, as that term may be defined by psychologists, have social anxiety, or that all introverts have social anxiety.

It sounds like she is succeeding at reading. She's just not succeeding yet at being thrust into situations that make her nervous, caused by your self-confessed bragging.

Why do you think your or her time would be better utilized if she were more outgoing at this stage? What does her apparent shyness have to do with your time utilization? Aren't you just really put out because you felt embarrassed? If so, I think you need to re-evaluate your priorities. I mean these words as kindly as possible.

Also, she may be especially self-conscious about her intellectual abilities. Maybe you should talk to her about that. I think you can find plenty of ways to encourage her to be more outgoing, without focusing on her reading etc.

I would personally tend to differ with you that being a manager or making a lot of money is the only way (or even the best way, or perhaps even a very good way) to define ultimate success in life. I would also tend to differ on your evaluation of your daughter, and probably on what gifted people are "good for" in general.

i do not agree........
i am not telling success= money, but it is very close to that
what is all the education for.. to get a better earning job right

we spend 2-3 hours a day for her reading not that we tell her to read but she wants us sit with her to listen to her

i am going to talk to her teacher this monday to decide whether she will do better in kindergarten

Drug dealers have a pretty high-earning type of job. So do high-class prostitutes. Meanwhile, some of the greatest productions of the human mind have come from people who were destitute, through focus on their greatest love above all else.

I don't think it's likely that many great minds will tend to find middle management, or even upper management, at a company of the most intense interest. Earning money will hopefully be a side effect of a happy, productive brilliant person, but it's certainly not a guarantee. I certainly don't think that the products of happy, productive brilliant people who aren't wealthy are necessarily of less value to themselves and society than those of wealthier normals.

Money is certainly important, but I think you need to stop thinking of your daughter's reading and other activities in terms of implications for future earnings!!

No - education is not just for getting a better earning job. It is to create a wider resource of options as an adult to live a fulfilled, happy life. Your daughter may choose to be a stay-at-home mom who doesn't work outside the home at all. She may become an author or reporter or artist or counselor or scientist or .... Education is to give her options. Not everyone needs a lot of money to be happy.

full stomach always tells like that we donot need money.... but i know what money can do (i spent lot of life in that situation)

sorry i am going off the topic
i appreciate everybody's ideas, i only hope you should never be in my position
i am worried about her.. she reads and reads.. morning before school , after she comes back till she goes to bed... most of the time i fell asleep and she keeps waking me up for difficult words and meanings......i donot know what she will end up be, i donot want gifted child i want normal child....should i tell her stop reading or keep quiet and let her decide.....

Gifted is normal. Different, but normal. Honestly? It's a nice problem to have. I never let myself forget that very important fact.

Parents don't own their children, and children aren't computerized performing dolls that do what parents tell them to do every time.

A lot of us have seen our children freeze up on stage or in front of the class. A lot of us did that ourselves. It's expected and completely normal in very young children (there, you got your wish).

If you think she reads too much, stop bragging about it to others (this is a signal that you want her to keep reading) and try some positive ways to help her find other interests. Go to the park. Invite a friend from school to go along. Sign up for a Mommy/Daddy and Me art class or soccer class. Let her pick it, even if you only present her with two or three options that fit your schedule. If she's doing the activity with someone she trusts, she'll be more likely to feel safe and not rebel or freeze up.

Just, please, please, for the sake of your little girl, don't dump on her. She's only five!!!

And stop worrying about whether or not she gets a job in management in the year 2035!

Val

I wouldn't worry. It sounds like she is just educating herself. That's what you want. There is no downside, unless you think she is reading obsessively AND not retaining most of it (I don't think that's likely, but it is definitely possible).

I also wouldn't worry that any shyness now means she won't be financially successful later, although I would encourage her to be more outgoing to get over her fears.

I understand your feelings about not wanting a gifted child. But you've got one-- now you're in for it. You can't help feeling how you feel, but you shouldn't let any bad feelings interfere with your good parenting.

What I would do is let her read, maybe helping her select some of the material to help ensure she's well-rounded (i.e. not reading 1,000 Rainbow Fairies books ). I would get her started on some activities to help her in areas where you think she's weak. And then I would sit back and relax-- you've got a decade-plus to help her be a fully capable human being. I think if you do that, no matter what her interests are, she will most likely be on track to be able to provide for herself just fine.

You've won the lottery-- just not the money kind! Think of it that way. Your daughter may go on to do Great Things and Change the Future of the Human Race, etc. etc. She's not just your daughter, she's a treasure. Don't dull her edge and she will most likely exceed your expectations.

Yannam,
I appreciate that you expressed your feelings, and take that as a sign that you feel safe here. I want to keep this Forum safe for everyone who needs it, and therefor am asking you to take a moment and rephrase your Subject Heading in a way that doesn't contain pejorative words. This is a public place, and many of our readers have children and dear family members who are all places on the IQ spectrum. It is entirely possible to have one child who is highly gifted and another who is intellectual disabled. We also have lurkers who may be reading here for a wide variety of reasons. So, while I like expressing feelings, I'm going to ask all of us to remember to keep our 'party manners' firmly in place while we express feeling. In a way, we are representing Gifties to the whole world with every post.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

As far as wishing your child was some 'other way' - there is a wonderful article about that issue - here's the link from Hoagie's Page:

This article is one of the ones I try to reread every few years. Off I go...
Grinity

Yannam,
Did you say that you are listening to your daughter reading aloud for 2 to 3 hours a day? Really? I dont' think that I would have been able to do that. Will she read silently? Aloud to her dollys with you out of the room? Is she only willing to read if you are listening?

What is she reading? 10 page picture books? Harry Potter?

You don't have to listen to her read if you don't want to - ok, maybe 15 minutes a day tops.

My favorite parenting book these days is Howard Glasser's 'Transforming the Difficult Child' 2008 edition. There are great tips in there even if your daughter isn't difficult. You can have a profound influence on how your daughter sees hereself and her world, and I found that book to be very instructive in how to harness my parent-power.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

she reads picture books and small chapter books
not harry potter
is that book dealing with ADHD??
i want my DD to to earn lots of money... i will try and direct her in that route.. i will succeed or not.......... time will tell

I'm really frustrated with this thread. Clearly OP has a wall up and is determined that her/his goals and methods are 100% the way to go and nothing offered by others is going to change that. I really feel for the OP's DD.

Yannam, you've gotten lots of good advice on the importance of accepting your dd for who she is. And, her behavior at 5 y.o. does not predict what her behavior will be like many years from now as an adult. It doesn't even predict what her behavior will be like two years from now (I can use my own dd as an example of that on this same subject).

I think your focus on financial success is premature, to say the least.

But if your goal is to raise a child who will have financial success (for whatever your reasons), I think your basic premise, that a less outgoing nature somehow precludes financial success, is seriously incorrect.

I'm hoping that you'll find some comfort in that. On the other hand, while intelligence cannot ensure financial success, it is often a key ingredient. If financial success were my goal, and it were even possible to choose, personally I'd choose intelligence in a heartbeat over a more outgoing nature. I know quite a few individuals who are extremely financially successful, and I can't think of any of them who come across as having an average intelligence. More relevant to your concern, if the behavior of their children (with lots of OEs, including being fearful/very attached/shy, etc. etc.) is any indication of what these extremely financially successful individuals were like as kids, you have nothing to worry about.

The fact that she didn't want to read in front of a group at 5 y.o. is not indicative of any problem that will keep her from pursuing her dreams - at least that's my opinion. Take a deep breath. With attention to her education and lots and lots of love, I strongly suspect that she'll do just fine

When DD10 was little, she often chose books over people. She barely spoke in preschool and hated crowds -- so much that we stopped going to BIG birthday parties. She did fine with the family and small play dates. I tried to follow her lead and find situations where she could be herself. I tried to find balance through activities. I found that structured group events like music class or dance class worked best for her. Dance class in particular let her perform in a group but she didn't have to talk.

At 10, DD is an introvert but is not shy in a way that limits her ability to get along in life. DD dances, plays sports and has just started an instrument. Ironically, she recently expressed an interest in acting. She has one best friend and a couple secondary friends. She doesn't get involved in popularity contests because she doesn't care. She is fiercely independent and self-motivated. Her teacher knows that on the rare occasions when she raises her hand, DD often gives deep and thought provoking comments. She is a voracious reader and prefers to spend her time with a good book. I have worked with her about when it is okay to lose yourself in a book (a weekend afternoon with no other activities) and when it is not (during dinner at grandma's). Have there been times when I wished she were more outgoing? Definitely (like when she wouldn't answer the phone for fear of having to talk to someone she didn't know.) At the same time, it is who she is.

Please try to find peace with who your DD is.

As a kid, I would often bury myself in my books. This irritated my mother. She would tell me to stop wasting time and that I should go out and play. I often found this puzzling since I wasn't bothering anyone sitting in my room reading. I can assure you that my hours spent reading only benefitted me later in life. The majority of my formal education, including law school, required vast amounts of reading.

Reading yannam's posts, I really get her situation and I do not think it fair that we patronize her. Like she wrote about our attitudes when our stomachs are full.

DH's college roommate, Harvard, Harvard Law, great job. wife Harvard and law too. They went to parent night at Styvescant and saw the AP math teacher. They said they were the only non Asian parents in the room. One set of parents brought a translator because they couldn't speak English. Their biggest concern was why chapters were skipped in the book. They wanted to make sure their child was learning every single thing. This HS is 31 in the country and 2nd in that National Merit Scholars list of HS's.

These parents were hungry and desperate for their children to learn everything and succeed. There was a discussion on MSNBC recently about colleges, costs, loans and they said the trend was for everyone to go to college but now, since we have limited job opportunities, that you have assess with your child whether it is worth it to go to college and for what and figure out if the loan costs bear out the training and type of job.

The reactions to yannam's posts are not practical in today's situation. Not the 60s anymore and although my concerns are a little different, I am in the same vein.

Since we have talking heads describing the lack of opportunities for our graduates and future grads, I think her concerns have basis in them and if helping her child develop stronger social skills helps her succeed, there is nothing wrong with that. It just gives her child more options.

DD wants to try for the NYCB school in April. She has closed hips and not the natural ballerina. So I told her that if she wants it, then she has to stretch everyday, starting now to train her body to lift the leg more. Maybe yannam understands more about what her child may want or not want, that she hasn't fully described and her anxiety about her ability to go after it is lost, or maybe not. But the full stomach comment made me read her posts differently.


Ren

i do not want my dd a failure.. may be i am too much worried that being shy, not being able to speak up make her a failure

that is all.....

you can not change the destiny.......

wren--- i could not understand ..they are only non asian... and AP math teacher
can you explain

Yannam, this seems like it may be a cultural difference, and maybe partly a "dad" difference (I see from a previous post that you are a father).

I agree with the posters that your D is working hard on educating herself with her reading. You should be very proud of this! It sounds like you were... you have applied for DYS, and had been boasting about her reading. But it seems like it was a blow to your ego when she did not perform as you expected in front of a crowd. You have a very long road to go as a parent with her. My daughters are in college and late high school, so I know that there are MANY twists and turns in your journey ahead.

You need to give serious thought to what kind of relationship you want with her, and how you want that path to unfold. If you make it clear to her that she is not acceptable because she is not "bold enough" or "not dumb enough" for you, you are setting yourself up for a conflict around personality traits that she can't control. You will likely ruin your relationship with her, in my opinion. Do you want your daughter to remember her childhood with you as one where she was pressured to be someone who she is not, and where you wanted her to hide or stop using her intellect? That isn't the basis of a loving lifelone relationship, in my opinion.

My gifted D (who is shy and loves to read) is also a tremendous writer, debater, entomologist, and philosophy student. If I had to guess, she will either be a crack attorney or scientist of some kind as an adult. She also has very high SAT scores, especially on the verbal side. If you can't accept that shy people can find career success (and they can, there are many ways to success besides being Donald Trump!!), at least know that her reading is building her verbal skills, which will likely help her to very strong SAT Critical Reading and Writing scores. Possibly even helping her get scholarship money to college. So if it helps you, think of every book she reads as contributing to good SAT scores and college merit aid later on...

Just because a child is gifted (and accepted to DYS) does not mean that they are perfect. Every human being has strengths and weaknesses. Your D was blessed with a sharp mind. It would be ridiculous (and futile) to try to stifle that. Sometimes I catch myself expecting my D to act older than she is or gifted in ALL areas, but that is not realistic. So I try to help her in the areas where she needs to grow. But in small steps, and with gentle words as much as possible -- works the best, and preserves our relationship so she is open to listening to me.

I've read this whole thread and I haven't read a single patronizing message. I did read a lot of posts that disagree with Yannam, which isn't the same thing as being patronizing.

I know lots of people who survived poverty (many in my family) and survived without telling their kids "I'd rather you were dumb than shy."


Perhaps we need a bit more of the 60s. Today's situation of focusing on education as a route to money and on getting money as an honorable primary life goal have not exactly got this country into a good state.



That's not what I've been reading. I've been reading "Shyness is such a horrible thing that I wish my child was dumb and outgoing instead so she could become a manager like I want her to."

Not sure why people take talking heads seriously.


Five year olds can't be failures. Full stop.

Val

Hope this doesn't add fuel to the fire. Reading this reminded me of some articles by Philip Guo about cultural differences in parenting and the conflicts this creates.
http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/asian-parents.htm
http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/understanding-asian-parents.htm

Minnie, I find it hard to believe that you're 70 years old with three kids. �Here's a favorite quote from an old hippy named Day who lives up in Woodstock. "You be you, let me be me. �Only possibility I can see, for a world in harmony". �Yeah, I'm a card carrying Woodstock woman too. �But I draw the line at wearing tie-dye.

Yannam has said his daughter was pg and the literature on the net says pg kids are at risk of dropping out at the same rate as disabled kid (I wanna say it was 15%)-high risk. �I'm inclined to agree with the many mothers here that a large portion of those are probably due to family problems and running away from home to avoid the drama. �There's also so many who have a stable, supportive homelife who just don't do anything with their gifts to consider. ��
So while I'm not sure shyness is the cause of failure, I'm more inclined to believe a stable supportive home-life with discipline and consistency on behalf of the parents contribute to long lasting success. �I don't believe 5 is too young to consider your child's retirement. �I don't believe it's wrong to seek ways to set them up for success. �It's popular today, but may not be right to suggest kids should be trusted enough to drop full responsibility for their lives in their own lap. �Ultimately in the end it is theirs, but why would we need parents if they're not going to give us tools and help us?

�I agree with Lucounu, maybe she's self-conscious because she's afraid the kids will pick on her for being different or for being too smart. �Or maybe it is just stage-fright.

I wasn't kidding about buying her flashy clothes. �Depend on her age either a few princess pieces or something trendy and fashionable it might help bring her out of her shell. �Feng shui.

Hi Yannam,
The book I mentioned is for kids who are sensitive and intense. The author has lots of experience with kids who were being diagnosed with ADHD, but responded really well to his coaching of their parents and then didn't look like they had ADHD. I'm just reporting not agreeing or disagreeing here.

What I like about the book is that it helps parents be BOTH 'a leader' of their child, AND 'sensitive to the child's emotional needs.'

Seems kind of like having one's cake and eating it too, yes?

Which chapter books does she like? Are the Magic Tree House books too hard, too easy or just right? Does she have a favorite book or series? Does she like books about sports, fairys, science, friends?

Smiles,
Grinity

How

thanks everybody for wonderful discussion and suggestions