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My DD3 goes to her Montessori 9-3:30 5 days a week, then adds ballet on Tuesday, Gymnastics on Saturday and Dalcroze Music class on Sunday.

She seems to love it all and it seems to also provide her with the physical outlet her high energy needs. Although we want to send her to the special gifted school at Hunter, there is a public school connected with Julliard. It is the Special Music School. You have to audition and it is pretty much a strict music school, but they have the highest scores of any public school, included all the G&Ts. Since she has to get evaluated by the same people for admission as to get into this Dalcroze and they already thought she could start private instrument lessons, this is an option.

What is the experience of adding instrument lessons early and helping with the need for challenge? Or other extracurricular?

Ren

Hi Wren:
My kids have been learning violin since they were 3.5, then we added piano when older was 9 and younger 7. I do not regret, but you have to know that this is a HUGE commitment on the parent site. Only now do I know that. Very difficult to pull through if both parents are working full time.
Only now, and they are in 7th and 5th grade , do they practice on their own (I still nag occasionally) because there are consequences of not practicing.
What I like about starting early is the fact, that by the time thya are in HS, both will be so advanced that quitting the instrument becomes a no option.
Violin is still the major instrument for both of them, with piano being a close second. I have a piano teacher coming to our house, so this was always a "very easy" solution for me, as there is no commute and wait time involved. They are both taking from the best (read very tough) teacher in the area. They are good. Saturdy both were graduating from their respective books (Suzuki) at the big concert and my sons group happened to be very small - only 4. As a 7th grader he was the youngest, visibly, the other three were HS. He was the only one playing with confidence (Bach concerto), even the teachers told him so after the performance, he kind of "saved the show" if you want. His teacher respons after the whole thing was over was "that spider in the second section was great, but there is still a lot to learn in that piece :-), and then she gave him a pat on his back. I love her
My kids have the heighest test scores in their classes, but is it because of music??? They know classical music and the elements of composition just by osmosis.
I don't even know if this answers your question?
If you would like some recommendation of books to read for you, as a parent, let me know.
Ania

Hi Ren,
My own son like plenty of down times, and seems to hate being scheduled at all, let alone overscheduled, but there are many, many just like your daughter who have very high energy, and need these types of outlets. Good luck with your school quest!
Smiles,
Grinity

We are in the same category. My son needs time for himself and complains when he doesn't have enough of it. He usually pursues his own interest in his free time and learns a lot this way. Less seems to be more in his case. Lots of free time is one of the major reasons why he is in half day K and why we are considering homeschooling for next year.

If her music teacher thinks that she is ready for an instrument and she is interested then I would probably try it, but I would also make sure she has time for it (perhaps less time in Montessori). JMHO.

Ditto what Grinity and LMom said for my 3yo and 6yo sons. We all get cranky if we have too much on the schedule, so we haven't yet added music lessons, and we only do one sport at a time with at least one season off in between.

We tend to do more of the extracurriculars in the summer when school isn't keeping us all so busy.

DS (now 12) started Suzuki violin at 5 years. It was our decision because we wanted him to work hard at somethng that did not come naturally. DH and I both agreed that this is what we were going to do and we were going to stick with it, a commitment that was tested time after time as we fought over practices almost daily for years. It was huge commitment, as Ania says, but I also believe that it is one of the best decisions we could have made, given our circumstance.

DS has learned what it means to really struggle with something, stick with it, and get better. He knows what it's like to not be better than other kids and he has made major mistakes in public and learned to get through it. He has learned persaverence, but is not a perfectionist. He plays well now, and like Ania's kids, is now practicing independently. When given the option of stopping (which we did give him this year), he looked at us like we were crazy. He has also taken up competitive fiddling and plays cello on the school orchestra.

Thank you for the feedback. Have knowledge on our commitment, since she said she wanted to take violin. They wouldn't let her do violin yet, it had to be piano. They do the Russian method, look down on Suzuki. I had Royal Conversatory books when I took piano, who knew it would get this complicated?

Anyway, they said the ear trains better if you start with piano, since they hear the tune, then you can do violin a year later. But it was 2X a week and we had to work with her to practice. This was better than the Suzuki school that did take them at 3 but the parent had to take lessons also. No ifs, ands or buts. Parents had to take the lessons if the child starts at 3.

We decided to wait until fall and see if she still wanted to take piano. She keeps saying she does. Since she is so much like me, I wonder if she could really sit for practice 2 hours a day by 4th grade.

Ren

Wren,

DD9 is one with high energy and enjoys lots of scheduled activities. I often have to hold her back, since I can't get her to several places at once. She plays the flute and have since age 7, since she didn't want to play piano as suggested by the music school. I find playing an instrument to be a good challenge for her and she likes the math aspect of music theory. Since school has been easy, this provides a good challenge and lesson on practice, hard work and rewards.

DD also figure skates, which is a great physical challenge. We have found choosing two activities (physical and musical) to be a great compliment and scheduling wise manageable.

Since I started piano at 4, and all my brothers played various instruments at various "talent" levels, I know the progress may be very slow at an early age. I did Suzuki piano which is very family involved whereas my brother zoomed through levels of violin and Suzuki was not the method for him. In the end, I play for my own enjoyment (and family's horror, LOL) and my brother travels the world conducting many great symphony orchestras for living. So the method chosen was not the determinant for success, rather than initial talent and work ethic.

Thank you for your story. One of the reasons we shy away from the Special Music School is that it feels like we are choosing her career (you had to be at the open house but it was clear).

But she talks quite a bit about it. Since I was a competitive figure skater, I shy away from that sport for her, though I did take her skating already. And her interest in ballet is higher than mine so maybe that is the route she will take.

Thank you for all the feedback.

Ren

My girls (6 and 9) play softball and basketball. DD6 started taking piano lessons last summer. Whoever mentioned that it's hard when both parents work is right. We don't get home until 5:30, and sometimes DD6 is too wiped out to practice. We are trying to encourage her to keep it up because she's very good.

DD9 really wants to take guitar lessons, so we will probably try that over the summer and see how it goes. Our schedule is pretty maxed out, so we don't let our kids do a whole lot of activities. It's just too much, and we feel like they need some time to just be kids.

Overall, I think music classes are great. I was very involved in music as a child (12 years piano and choir), and I know I benefitted from it. If you can swing it, I think it's great. I just wish I didn't have to work so that it would be easier for us.

We also have a child that gets upset if he doesn't have "his" time. At the same time he wants to do EVERYTHING. Like one of the other posters, we limit him to one physical activity and 1 musical activity at a time. This seems to allow him time for himself, time for homework and time for practice.
Over the years, he has earned a Black belt in karate, taken tennis, swimming and played soccer. I have taught him piano to some extent. He can read music and has a great ear. At his request, he is now taking drum lessons and continuing with piano as time permits.

He really wants to go back to karate but we dont' have a school nearby that I like right now that meets our schedule needs.

I think it is great that you have so many options available to you in NYC

We also do generally do one active, one musical activity for the most part for DS7, and DD3 (she's only in preschool 3 mornings a week) now too. We are hoping to start DD3 on an instrument in the fall - suzuki violin if she has her way. She's doing kinder musik type program now. DS7 has been taking piano for almost 2 years and started about 7 months before kindergarten. Which worked out really well for him.

I also kind of feel like the free time is GREAT for the kids in terms of creativity and inventiveness. When they're left to their own devices for a couple hours at a time, it's amazing the things they do and come up with. I feel like they have plenty of time to try everything. Both of them would ask to book their schedules solid, but I really feel like we all need that down time.

Hey all,

DD5 started violin last year at 4. She has a private lesson, and we didn't go to Suzuki, I didn't think my child would be a good fit. Our teacher studied under Suzuki many years ago and it became problematic that the teacher wanted her to play twinkle twinkle little star over and over until it was perfect. Luckily, after a few terse e-mails, she relented and became more flexible concerning dd5. Now she only has to practice Twinkle once per week and is learning to read music. She has a folder full of music she can choose what she wants to practice. I give the teacher a lot of credit as this goes against her teaching philosophy, but DD was about to quit.
Or turn into a mini rock star and crash her violin against the wall until it was smashed to bits!

Incog

LOL incog!!! We also do one activity at a time. My DS10 has done taekwondo, baseball, soccer, basketball, BMX bike racing and some guitar lessons. But all this is only one at a time. This year he is in clubs at school like 4H, drama and art club that meet right after school for an hour or so on different days so I don't count those as part of the "one thing". He has always wanted to try absolutely everything. Next on his list is snowboarding but as we live in the south this is not a viable option on a day to day basis. Maybe for vacation though.

DS6 is another story. He never wants to do anything but stay at home and play. He has played soccer and just now has gotten interested in karate but that is about it. I just go with the flow with whatever they want to do (within reason of course!!!)

I think as they get older, it becomes easier for them to do lots of things at once, especially if the academic challenge isn't quit up to snuff. By the time my son is 10 or so, I expect to follow his lead more than I do now, and if he chooses to be what I would consider to be overprogrammed, then I'll be a lot more okay with that than I would be with a 3-4-5-6-7yo child.

But I tend to think that the younger they are, the more downtime they need to think and dream and play and process the day's input, even for the highly outgoing, on-the-move kids. But since all kids are different, naturally YMMV, and you have to do whatever works best for your particular child.

I only recently started restricting activities because I can no longer get everyone where they need to be and pick them up and make sure they're prepared. Once they're in High School, most activities are organized through the school, but there's still transport requirements.

Aside from hating running around and always barking at the kids, "hurry up, get in the car!", fast food dinners, DH and I go to bed EARLY. We always have. Usually about 9:30-10 pm. I am finding some of the activities are going very late (Basketball games and practices encroach on my pajama time).
.

Just a comment, early bedtime to me means 8 pm. I am talking about me. Not exactly, but after DD3 goes to bed, I do a few things and then head there myself, but I like getting up at 4 am. My time. And I used to have to go to work early,so 4 am became my running time.

DD is also a morning person, by my habit.

Now that I am doing the research, I am really looking at the non-linear aspect of her and how much she is like me. I never categorized my learning that way but now I see why people viewed me as different.

I was "overscheduled" but I also added on myself. So I am wondering how much is the need for activity and desire to participate in many things. My mother put me in ballet at 3, took swimming lessons soon after (factor of living on the beach), then piano, skating, tennis. I added track and soccer at grade school. By the time I was in high school I added more, though I didn't play soccer anymore.

Not that I don't enjoy the down time of reading, my 5 mile run in the morning is kind of like my start, my centering. So maybe it is just me. Because DD3 seems to want the activities.

On the note about cutting back on the Montessori. 3:30 is the earliest pick up time. And I am picking her up a little after nap. They eat lunch late in her class. Good thing I feed her breakfast for 2.5 hours in the morning.

Ren

GS8 thrives on a busy schedule. He started K while still with our son. He had behavior issues at school and stepmom responded by taking things away until all he was allowed to do was stay in his room, he just behaved worse. We got custody in the middle of K and I started him in ice skating lessons and a couple more things. He's had piano & swimming lessons in the last year.

Currently he's in Cub Scouts which is usually 2 meetings/month and 1 pack meeting a month. He takes Spanish after school 1 day/week. He has 3 calves and does farm chores that take about an hour every night. 4-H will start next month with meetings every 2 weeks until schools out, then every week until August. He shows the calves 1-3 times/month right now and will show at about a dozen county & state fairs and jr shows this summer. He's a regular member of his Sunday night church youth group. We take him to farm educational meetings with us. He reads a lot and I started him on the Singapore math books in January. He has less than 5 minutes of homework from school I'll probably try to work in flute lessons this summer. We also try to do some projects at home that add to what he is doing at school.
So far, the more he does, the happier he is. The physical activity from the farm work has been good for him, but I think adding the math books has been the best addition.

I am surprised he has so little homework from school. The big thing in NYC is homework and I thought that was a national thing. Kids by 2nd grade getting 2 -3 hours of homework each night????

Ren

Homework for Third Grade in our Public School takes between 45 minutes to 2 hours depending on the assignments. I personally think they do that to reduce the opportunity for parents to afterschool. I know after struggling to keep my son focused on completing the repetitious drill based assignments reasonably neatly, neither one of us has the energy to do much more. Add in practice time for his activities and eating dinner and we are already close to bed time. Pull out days are the worst. Those days he can have around 3 hours homework to make up the missed classroom assignments plus regular homework.

It would be different if I felt that he was getting any benefit from his homework other than learning each day you just have to do it. It really hurts to see his love of learning disappearing under the weight of pure drudgery.

We have been very lucky to be at a "poor" school. Virtually no homework. There are so many single parent families trying to make ends meet, or parents working two or more jobs, that the school understands that it is unrealistic to ask kids to do that much homework. In 6th, DS gets anywhere from 5 min to 2 hours of Algebra homework (he's subject accelerated) and maybe 5-20 of English. The Algebra is getting shorter as DS learns actual study habbits--YEAH!

The result of the lack of homework is plenty of time to after school (Spanish, math etc), play with friends, take music lessons, play soccer and read his own books and magazines etc. I don't know what we'd do if he had to do all the homework I know some of you deal with. I need time to give him MY curriculum as well--I don't want the school monopolozing his time after school.

So much homework for such little kids--awful! The one night DS 6 had close to 2 hrs of homework, I wrote the teacher a note and said I thought it was excessive (one math concept, math problems). HG/PG kids don't need such repetition. They can master it after a couple problems. Since then he's only had max of 30 minutes, but most days none. My older kids (9th & 7th grades) have about an hour of homework usually.

Did anyone hear the story on NPR this morning about the connection between The Family Dinner and school success? Very interesting. Evidently the new researcher says it's not specifically sitting down to dinner, but more the quality of interaction, conversation, vocabulary, etc. at dinner. Isn't this an argument to limit activities so everyone can hang out and talk? How can quality of conversation be top knotch if kids are so exhausted after soccer, violin, etc. and mom is too beat from transporting to conjure witty reparte?

Agreed, cym!

One of the big factors for me about whether DS6 would actually attend that GT school next year part-time is if they piled on the insane homework or not. The answer was not, unless they didn't work in class, and that seemed okay to me. 7yos should NOT be doing 2-3 hours of homework per night!

It makes me want to turn to the school and say, "But when do they get to be kids?" <sarcastic smirk>

cym - I totally agree! 2-3 hours of homework a night seems like a lot for 2nd grade to me. The school has them for 6+ hours a day. What are they doing all day? You're totally right - GT kids especially do not need that kind of repetition. I think sending "something" home for organizational skills and to keep the parents informed about what they're working on in class is a good practice. But anything more than about 20 minutes in 1st grade (where we're at) seems out of control. I would reconsider for a short term project - like for science or something along those lines. But in that case, it's very open ended and DS would LOVE something like that.

I actually think DS learns MORE by having free time to pursue things on his own. Granted - he is very poorly placed and challenged in school right now. This is just another reason we are more strongly considering homeschooling for at least a trial run. I really feel like he could and would learn more in 2-3 hours a day than he would in our current school set up. And be a much happier kid in the process.

I was at a Ruf lecture, and she noticed that on achievement tests some of the scores reflect FOK that a child can pick up on their own, and some reflect skill that just have to be taught... she pointed out that on the FOK subtest, the scores of gifted children go up during the summer, when they have more time to read what they choose, while of course for ND kids a the achievement test type scores go down over the summer. So I wouldn't be at all suprised that your DS is learning more when he isn't wasting his time with school, kimck. Depending on the age, a child might learn more in 30 minutes than they learn from a day of school.

Although a school that isn't totally toxic can have wonderful benifits as well.


Grimity

I am impressed at the well rounded "education" you are giving your children. You are this teacher's dream parents.

I have just one question about the homework and then a few thoughts. First, is this homework the same for ALL of the class? If so, just imagine, your gifted child is taking two hours to finish. Wonder how long it takes the LD child? You are SO right; that is excessive on both counts.

My other thought on homework is always the purpose. The bright child probably already gets it after 10 problems (maybe less).

The middle child needs to practice more, but is likely to make errors without some reinforcement. I like to spot check classroom assignments as the kids work, just to make sure that the process is resulting in correct answers. (Note that I didn't say the child is using the "right" process.) I sure don't want a student doing 50 problems and reinforcing something that is always resulting in incorrect answers. He or she would be better off with the same 10 problems as the gifted child, but probably needs the skill reinforced quite often.

Then there are those children that I have the most sympathy for. They are the ones with the poor study habits and/ or weak skills (and often less than helpful parents.) How is this child supposed to even think about getting those 50 problems right? In all likelihood, he/ she probably got very few done at school and by the time he begins the work at home there is little recall to the process. Where does he turn for help?

For these reasons none of my students have much homework. Let the child pursue his/ her own interests to broaden their horizons. This does so much more to make a well rounded child. If I give "homework" for the sake of homework.....especially to a bright child, it is going to be something open ended. The one thing that I have found with my classroom experience is that most GT kids want concrete answers and they do not like being wrong. (One other thread mentions creativity as one of the important factors in programming. In my opinion this should be #1.) Our brightest---your children--- are going to be problem solvers of some type. They need to learn that it is okay to have to back away and regroup. It is okay to not have an immediate answer....And that an 84% is an okay score if I go back and LEARN from my mistakes. Children often learn more from evaluation of mistakes than being the perfect student in the beginning.

I would guess that few of us recall those tests that we got 100% on, but I can tell you about the question in seventh grade math (over 30 years ago) that I missed, but found out in looking for my mistake that the teacher had used the wrong formula. If that hadn't been the case, I would still remember because my goal was to know what the mistake was so that it never happened twice. Even if it was a careless mistake, it was a learning experience. I also learned some very useful skills of communication while asking about the mistake or defending what I thought were correct answers.

I want to send my kids to your classroom!

*sigh* <fluttering eyelashes>

I think I have a teacher crush.

Hi Just Ducky,

I think we all are thinking that you live up to your screen name!

I just believe that I have a calling. Not trying to be arrogant, but I am good at what I do. Like anyone, I make mistakes and those 10 year olds told me so today!!! That made me smile because they are not afraid to ask me to look at something that I have done. Those are the skills the bright kids need taught. (Needless to say, I often have to shed some light on being tactful. It doesn't bother me, but the next teacher isn't quite so open. Plus rudeness is not accepted!!!)

I hope that I am always seeking to be the best for them, but approachable by all. There are days that I would absolutely walk away and never look back-----until one of them smiles and reminds me why I'm there. That perfect blend. I have every level in my classroom of 28 (including a child with severe emotional issues) but my greatest achievement, I think, is that each one sees the others as an equal part of the team. Some just have a little more insight than others and often find that they don't have to put as much effort into the general studies areas that are new to all of them. For some reason, Indiana History is just a lot easier to understand for those high ability kids. The really cool thing is that they sometimes think of the best way to get their peers to understand. Try as I might, I cannot think like some 4th graders.

Anyway, thanks for the compliments. I just happen to love seeing those AHA! moments.

Since this is an "extracurricular activities" discussion, may I suggest that you look into this site and see if there is a summer camp near you?
www.campinvention.org

This was probably the biggest key in reigniting my passion for gifted education. It is not billed as a gifted program, but there are so many components that are vital to a good program. You will find "regular" kids there. I could become a walking commercial for the organization. After bringing it to my school last year, we are pumped and ready for year number two. There was absolutely no doubt that we would be a host site again. I didn't even have to beg the superintendent and school board this year. The kids that I took to the board meeting pretty much guaranteed continued approval. (The supt. simply said, "You know that you will have many more kids next year!! Be prepared.") By the way, last year's participants are our BILLBOARDS this year. Their enthusiasm and excitement are selling the program to those students not involved last year. We had trouble getting kids to leave at the end of a day last summer and even "lost" one child when he went back to a classroom to "get" something. He really just wanted to continue working on a project and was leaning down in the classroom and wouldn't answer the instructor calling his name. Knowing he was in one of two rooms that are side by side, the teacher found him adding touches to his "roller coaster."

I know some of the others here did not have good experiences with camp invention, but my kids went last year and they LOVED it!!!! In fact as soon as it was over they were begging to go back and were already trying to gather their broken appliance for next year. We have already signed up for this year. Their school hosts it and I know the teachers running it and it was a really great experience for them. So I'm with Just Ducky - at least check it out in your area.

Thanks for the note about camp invention. I went to their website and discovered GS's school has one.

As for the amount of homework, GS has never had more than 5 minutes of homework but I've heard other parents at the school complain about hours of homework. The most GS has ever brought home is 1, double-sided sheet of either reading & answer the questions; or the same amount of math. I guess some people would consider his reading as homework. He takes AR tests at school on what he reads, but reading is such a pleasure to him that he's never considered it homework.

Mom, you are exactly right. I had never heard of it until I got this random postcard in the mail last year and inquired, but I am sure that the teachers running the program could make or break it. Therefore, I would want to ask some questions before signing up.
I just got very lucky with the team we put together. The staff is paid, but not nearly what they would make in a summer school position, so the teachers have to WANT to be there or they just need money and can't find anything else. I just happened to get the teacher that I first approached and our superintendent made a recommendation when he gave me the go ahead. I had worked with him in my GT days, but hadn't been in the same building for years so I was hesitant. Supt. recommends though, so I at least offered.
This teacher just turned 75, but the curriculum had him as excited as the kids. It was amazing. He told me this year that he wasn't returning because he is celebrating his 50th anniversary that week. By the time I returned home the message on my answering machine was that he hoped I would still let him work. His wife said that she knew he loved this last year and they would travel later. THAT IS AN ENDORSEMENT in my opinion.
I had one teacher volunteer the first day and she came back everyday. She told our school board she would do it again in a heartbeat.

Also, if you don't find one near you and you know a teacher or director of a center with enthusiasm and a desire to seek new and neat things send them to the site. There is a section for bringing it to your school. Cool thing is......the school pays nothing except providing the space. Everyone is on contract with Camp Invention and ALL supplies are furnished. They even sent the trash bags!!!

OHGrandma,
I am so glad you did!!! I am honestly not getting paid to endorse Camp Invention, but I was just absolutely sold on it!!!