Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments We can't let the kid skip be-cauuse....

Hi all,

This is a new thread that I've created out of a segue from the NASA thread.


Here's what I've been told or heard about:

1. We can't skip him because of concerns about socialization.

Eight-year-olds can't mix with nine-year-olds because that would be Damaging. Well, except when they're on the playground at recess, when older siblings exist, or when a redshirted nine-year-old is in a class with eight-year-olds. These situations are either extremely rare or extremely ignored for purposes of the conversation.

This argument also has something to do with the soul destruction that occurs when one's classmates get driver's licenses in 2017 when one still has to wait until 2018. The horror! The horror!

2. We can't skip her because there's no such thing as giftedness anyway.

Unless she's a gifted athlete, in which case we will gush with praise to the point where she'll want to hide under a rock to escape it. Athletic-type giftedness definitely exists. It is great!

For purposes of this argument, the damage wrought by mixing with older children does not exist. We can ignore any damage wrought by making little pitchers throw the ball until they injure themselves, etc. etc. This is because sports injuries aren't damage --- they Build Character (tm).


3. We won't skip him because you're just a pushy parent.

Corollary: "You need to let him be a normal kid."

These statements are universally true. Therefore, it follows logically that there's no need to test the child or listen to the parents. Why bother?

(Abandoning my tongue-in-cheek approach here.) Educators aren't used to seeing highly gifted kids. If they aren't highly gifted themselves or if they haven't done any background reading, it can be easy to believe that it's impossible to figure out what division is by yourself before you start school.


4. We don't need to skip her because our teachers are Masters and Mistresses of Differentiation!

There's a big pile of worksheets on the table near the window. She can do them any time after she finishes her hundred addition problems, gets them all right, and finishes tutoring the two kids assigned to her! Never mind that the worksheets repeat the same stuff she just did. If she was really gifted, she'd want to do them all. But she doesn't, and this is how we know she isn't gifted. :-P

5. We can't skip him because he didn't get 90% in every subject on the tests you made us administer because you're such a pushy parent.

That last 12% of second grade language arts is the good stuff, and he needs to spend all of next year learning it.

For purposes of this argument, we will ignore the very rare occurrence of other children passing to the next grade on the strength of Bs, Cs, Ds, or Fs.


HTH,

Val

Bravo Val ... great post.

You go!!! I love it!

6. We can't skip him because he may not pass the FCAT (Florida's standardized test). We have seen gifted kids fail it.

7. We can't skip him because he needs to learn to do unchallenging work. This from the school psychologist who said there's a lot of drudgery in her job.

Oh, and thank you so much for "working" with him at home pushy parent.

Oh my. Sounds like someone needs a career change.

Thanks for the kind words, all.

Val

((hugs)) Val -

My least favorite one: We can't skip him because we skipped a boy like him 10 years ago, and the parents said it was the worst mistake they ever made.

My retorts:
1) maybe you didn't skip him enough? Any kid that you noticed was ahead enough to need a skip, may well have needed subject accelerations as well, or radical acceleration.
2) maybe this kid would be miserable in formal school no matter what - lets check in with him in 10 more years, ok?
3) I promise to never blame you for any bad effect of this skip - and I'll put it in writing. I'm the parent.

8. Grade skipping migh work for now but you'll see later if he has to start college early. Kids who do that "crash and burn" and end up messed up in their 20s.

No wonder we love 'GAP years' so much!

Oh wow thanks for the laugh! That was great!

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7. We can't skip him because he needs to learn to do unchallenging work. This from the school psychologist who said there's a lot of drudgery in her job.


[/quote]

LOVE THIS ONE!!! We were actually told something similar to this at a meeting last month with our local zoned school. We were told that he needed to learn how to "deal with it" because everyone will be bored at some point in their life and he needs to learn how to deal with being bored

Ah, that one would be funnier, if it weren't codified into state law in our state! (The law actually says that you're required to accommodate kids who can meet that hurdle, which the schools interpret as a prohibition on accommodating kids who don't meet it.)

What's a GAP year?
LoL, 10-4 ignoring the fact that families are mixed-aged, but they can't be in class with older kids. Lmao

It is the same in my state. My twice exceptional son, who tested around the time he turned 6, almost made that 90% necessary to skip first grade and go on to second. At the same time the kindergarten teacher recommended holding him back in a transitional first grade (a year in between Kindergarten and first grade) so he could learn to color better even through he has a disability that affects visual motor integration and the school would not offer OT or PT because he was academically advanced and OT and PT is only for kids who are failing. He was the second youngest in the kindergaraten class, but the only kid who could read well (at a 5th grade level) and do mental math. We were told to homeschool or put him in private school which we couldn't afford.

When I talked to people in the gifted ed and special ed departments of our state department of ed, they said there was nothing they could do because of the laws in our state. There is no law requiring an appropriate education for twice exceptional kids in our state.

At 12, my son is taller and seems older than the four kids in his musical theater class that are close to his age--they are actually slightly older than he is, but they all thought he was a few years older. An adult in the optometrist's office last year thought he was a smart 14 year old. I think it might have worked out well if the school had grade skipped him with a few accommodations, but they didn't have to and they wouldn't so we had to homeschool. We even asked for an IEP meeting after we homeschooled for a year and had him tested so we had proof that he was academically advanced, but had a disability, but we never got that meeting. We were ignored. It is a small town. My dad didn't want us to fight it because he thought homeschooling would be best and I gave up so here we are and although my son is doing well academically he now says he is lonely and wishes he could be around kids that are more like him. There was no perfect solution for us.

I still think the perfect solution for us would have been part time school but there is nothing I can do.

DS's school was actually quite open to a skip and didn't throw the usual arguments at us. I had read the arguments here and had gone in well prepared with tons of research, Nation Deceived and the Iowa manual.

One we heard this year that I hadn't heard before:

We can't skip him because we'll lose class size reduction funding.
Me: How much is that?
Principal: I don't know. A lot.
Me: I'll calculate it and pay the bill.
Principal: It's a lot... like $900.

Apparently $900 is the price for educational happiness and success.

Turned out to be more like $200. And yeah... we paid it. And all lived happily ever after... until I have to approach them again for subject acceleration this year.

Can't skip him because he doesn't know the basics (i.e. he is bored witless of doing "1 + 1" type maths) - from a teacher who was proud to know zilch about Kepler)

We can't skip her because she has already received accommodations in the past.

We can't skip her because we think she has Aspergers even if OT, neuropsych and developmental ped do not.

We can't skip her because there are "mean" kids in the next grade up.

We can't skip her because it will upset the other parents and indicate that our program is not as rigorous and differentiated as we claim it is.

Oh, and she hasn't learned cursive yet!

And, We clearly don't NEED to skip her because we are already having her:
- travel to another classroom for math
- receive 1 on 1 instruction in composition/reading
- expecting her parents come up with her spelling list so that it is hard enough
- expecting an 8 year old to practice strings in a room alone during music
- having her learn "socialization"/boredom management skills in the classroom during reading group time when they are reading books she read 4+ years ago and probably has memorized.
- being told her needs and science and technology will not be able to be met within the elementary school environment.

Clearly being singled out and kept alone is better socialization and easier for the school logistically than bumping her up.

Rant over.

Thanks for this thread! awesome!

Thanks for great responses, everyone!

And lest we forget the real reason for why grade skips just can't happen: it's because the world --- nay, the entire solar system --- will come to a fiery cataclysmic end if a five-year-old is allowed to enter first grade. We're talking an event that will make the Permian extinction look, you know, like the loss of a minor toe fungus. We're talking about the sun swelling to several times its normal size and swallowing up Venus in the process. From here, our sun would be a giant red mass filling the sky --- that is, if there was anyone left to look at it. All because of a pushy parent.

And I think you are all very selfish for even suggesting that giving your child a more appropriate learning environment is more important than the continued existences of Mercury and Venus.

I am, I am Superman, and I know what's happening...



Val

A gap year means taking a year off between high school and college to travel, volunteer, intern, start a nonprofit or for-profit business, etc. It's one possible way to allow a kid to be accelerated and not go away to college quite so early.

Man, we are selfish!

Really, though, this thread is awesome! Val, great posts!

Yeah, this is great. Val, with the other poster's permission, you should write this up and see if Hoagie's or some place will publish it. It's too good to just keep on this board.

As weird as it sounds since I believe my state is 46th overall in education, I'm so glad I live here. My DS7 starts 7th grade part time in 3 weeks without any argument from the school, the district or anyone else.

LOL BWBShari- that is the main reason our public charter has been so accommodating. They wanted DS to be in a grade where he'd be able to take the standardized tests and boost the score :-)

Yes and we are in the state rated second for public schools, and you have to fight tooth and nail here to get any acceleration!

goes to show you ...

Cat

I'm amazed that the principal was shameless enough to take you up on this. I would have expected just making the offer to embarass them into doing the skip.

We keep getting this "reason"... Every child needs the opportunity to work on his/Her weaknesses. Your child's biggest weakness is an inability to handle boredom. So no grade skips until he masters being bored.

Bad budget times... I'm surprised he didn't ask for more money for school supplies for the next grade up also.

Easy for me to talk, since I'm not dealing with schools, but I think my response to this would be, "That's not your job."

Expanded slightly, "I can teach my child tolerance for boredom at home with household chores. Your job is to teach my child academics."

That's amazing. Obviously they must not realize how inane that sounds. I can see the need to master the fine art of patience, but to be able to handle boredom? This reminds me of what my dad used to say when I was little and complained of being bored: "An active mind is never bored." Which reminds me of the whole caged up cheetah analogy. Just see what our kids can do when you unleash them from the confines of this unnecessary daily grind... Anyway, you should tell them "Don't worry, I'm sure he'll have plenty of practice being bored in the next grade up, too." (Ok, maybe you shouldn't say that, but, geesh...)

Actually, I think I'd be asking how they would determine that DC had finally mastered being bored. Is there an assessment for that?

<snort>

Well-played!

I suspect that that they know your child has mastered boredom when he or she no longer asks the teachers any questions, completes all assignments cheerfully and fits in so well in the class any talk of a skip is no longer recognized.

However, I will add, that although we never got a full grade skip, we did get enough of the teachers on board that DS did get some grade skips and special placements for his teachers. His gifted teacher is amazing with him. Other than that, DH and I decided to be the ones that get to challenge and intrigue him outside of school. Too bad it means he does double work. Once to keep the teachers happy and the rest to keep him happy.

This is one of my many needless worries I can let go of! My husband's friend has been a local middle school teacher for ages. I finally asked her what the local school policy on grade-skipping is. She said they test them and if the test says they should be skipped they get skipped, no problem! She has her granddaughter in pre-school so she can skip since she's a late September baby.

Ok, didn't get this from the school system, but my mother-in-law (sigh): You wouldn't want her to go so fast that she'd be odd.
To which I replied, she is odd. Would you rather her be odd and free or odd and caged?

I really, really like the way you said that!

Val

Thanks Val for this post. We have gotten the "Your son is too immature to move ahead anymore" so many times. Sadly, this past year he was told that repeatedly. We are homeschooling this year.

They just don't get that academic abilities and social/emotional development are not equal nor occur at the same rates.

Love the posts on boredom. I never cease to be amazed at the creative reasons not to grade skip.

For me, and I'm sorry if it's a duplicate... but it is a REAL concern in GA, apparently:

We can't skip him now, at 5 (well 5 at the time), because when all of his classmates will be driving at 16, and he will be the only one who isn't.

Thankfully, for us, we got over that little hump.

See, and I can't even imagine driving coming into the picture. In dd9's grade cohort, even if no one skips a grade btwn now and then (no one has yet of her group), the kids will be between 15 turning 16 in late Sept (dd) to 18 their junior year of high school. Thus some of them will be driving by the end of their freshman year and some their junior year.

Thanks Val and Dottie. That's very helpful to hear. Saying that did give her pause... how could it not? But I have a feeling that when she gets older, my in-laws are going to have this "we're very proud of her, even though she is a freakshow" mentality. They're never going to get her. It probably gets to me more than it should, particularly given the fact that I just generally don't see eye to eye w/ the in-laws, but this is my dd we're talking about, you know? grr/sigh/ah well...

So, for those whose DC's have skipped, did you find one skip was enough? We have been granted a skip this year and am anxious to see how much of a difference it makes. I can't help but think that one skip isn't enough, but, at least we are one step closer to where we need to be/get. What did you do? Subject accel. after that? Another skip down the road? Homeschool?

I love these sayings... I have read so many of them and was prepared to answer to them when we had our big meetings, but... we didn't have to worry about them (though we did hear that driving might be an issue! SIGH! We told them, if we don't get accomodations now, that will be the LEAST of our worries at 16!)

For those that went HS route... do you use a computer based program or do you do all of your own curriculum? (Hoping not to need this info. but I am one who likes to be well researched on my decisions for the future...) Did the same thing with the decision to accel.

My dd11 skipped 5th although she probably should have skipped 4th since that year wasn't a year in which she did much other than help other students. That aside, she was already one of the youngest in her grade b/c her bd fell just before the cut-off for starting K here. She is, therefore, btwn 1-2.5 yrs younger than her current grade peers.

We've had two years of schooling since the skip (6th and 7th). She did get straight As and A+s both year and tested in the 99th percentile on reading immediately post skip and advanced on all of her CSAPs (NCLB test in CO) the year following the skip. We haven't gotten her CSAP scores for this past year yet. These are the only achievement tests she's taken for which I've been given scores since the skip other than the SAT this past year. While her reading and writing scores on the SAT were in the top 10% for JHU's talent search region (so I think that they were fairly good), they didn't make the cut in our region -- oh well.

Long story short, I do think that she is still near the top of her grade post skip. She is still in accelerated/GT classes. I am disinclined toward skipping her again and don't honestly feel that it is necessary at this point, however. She intends to change districts the year after next to attend a more challenging high school and to take AP classes where available. We'll see where it continues to go and may change course if needed. However, at this point she won't be turning 16 until her senior year so I don't foresee wanting her to be any younger than that.

My dd is not a DYS/PG child, though, so yours may need more acceleration than my dd has depending on LOG, personality, age within grade already, etc.

My DS had a mid-year skip from 1st to 2nd but it was really more like a 2 year acceleration because he skipped into a GT cluster that was working at a 3rd grade level overall with individualized reading groups. In theory, they will work at a 4th grade level in the coming year.

We will see how it goes this year because they reorganize the cluster grouping every year. He finished ALEKS 4th grade math in 10 hours this summer so redoing it again would be an okay review but if they drop back down to 3rd grade he will need additional subject acceleration.

At his pace of learning, I can see that an additional skip in the future is probably going to be necessary but we will try to avoid it if at all possible. DS is happy socially in his current grouping and seems to be a really good match.

Thanks for all your comments. Sounds right along with what I was thinking! Well, we can only take it one step at a time and cross those bridges when we get to them! Thanks again!

bh14 - so far, one skip has been enough for us. DS6 starts 2nd grade next week. He's also in Target/ALP. I think he could warrant another skip, but I do think socially he's in a good spot. So unless the first few weeks are a disaster at his new school, we're all (including him) happy where he's at.

Thx JJSmom... we are a few years ahead of you in school (just finished 2nd, will skip to 4th.) Not sure if that will make a difference as far what will be needed down the road as both of our children get older. Time will tell DD is in the GT program at school also. I am keeping my fingers crossed that one will be enough but like to be prepared of possibilities! YIKES! Don't get me wrong... I am VERY happy with the one we've gotten so far... just trying to see what the norm has been with those who have been there and if something else still needed to be done. THX AGAIN!

I'm so glad to read all these success stories! My husband and I seem to be in the minority in that we weren't big advocates of skipping and pushed against it when the public school suggested it last year ('though that doesn't mean we're against it for others). DS would need at least two skips right off the bat, and even then would require further subject acceleration in multiple areas. I suspect that he's like a lot of kids here (especially the YS-level ones), and that 1 skip is rarely the complete answer. When we considered it, the teachers we talked with were not fond of the subject acceleration b/c it required them to match up with upper grade teachers in timing. We didn't pursue it much further when we discovered our homeschooling options.

That being said, we fully expect to re-integrate him back into school at some point before high school, and I'm really watching how you all pave the way. I'm one of those moms who doesn't really want to see her child graduate super early (he'd be 17 even without skipping), but I know we'll be there sooner or later.

Meanwhile, we're trying to slow the acceleration down with filling a lot of his school day with "elective" type studies (language, geography, etc.). bh14, we piece together our own curriculum, taking the best of everything while meeting the various grade levels that DS is at with each subject. We're with a charter who buys us most of our materials, and we utilize a lot of workshops and other classes.

Thank you so much to all of you for pushing your schools to recognize what needs to be done! I know how hard it is to fight with administration, and I really admire it!

FWIW, I didn't have to fight to get dd11 skipped. I was approached by the middle school suggesting that we start her a year early. They said that they felt that they would have a hard time meeting her needs if we didn't start her then. It is nice when the school is looking out for the kid, though .

Oops, great point, Cricket! I just meant that I see so many parents wrestling with this issue, and think it's great that everyone is such a powerful advocate for their children. Super-kudos to the teachers who recognize the need and come forward, too!

Wow Cricket2! We definitely had to pursue it.... it's never been done at our school before so this was a BIG deaL and a huge change for them in our case!

I give kudos to the schools who are willing to give it a shot, having no experience with it, though the research and tools available to make informed decisions should leave them feeling comfortable with their decisions in this day and age.

Gratefulmom... thx for the info. on your curriculum. Always good to know

We fought tooth and nail at the private school for subject acceleration and they just straight out refused. They "go deeper" they kept saying. There's not really a "deeper" when you're doing phonics two hours a day but that is a bit of a moot point!

The public school, once we worked out the class size funding issue, was happy to do a full skip. In fact, it was DS's 1st grade teacher who really pushed the issue with the school psych. I will never forget the look on the principal's face when he said "well usually kids that skip turn out weird." The school psych turned to him and said "I skipped 1st grade... are you saying something?" Then DS's 1st grade teacher said "I graduated high school early..." Insert foot in mouth, principal signed the papers :-)

Hahahahah! That was HILARIOUS! I'll say "open mouth... insert foot!" OUCH! You just NEVER know where people have been or what they have done.

Priceless!

CAMom I love it!

Awesome CAMom! I have always wondered why no one at dd's school has ever thought to ask DH or I if we were also "weird"/accelerated in our schooling.

Great story, CA Mom! LOL

CAMom, I love it! It could have been scripted.

This is the kind of thing many people on this list dream about; it's wonderful to hear that it actually happened.

Val

Have you all seen this article?

"Whole grade acceleration success stories"
http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10651.aspx

It is a good read and fills one with hope

(oops, didn't see the other thread that already had this)

Thanks for posting it anyway. I didn't see it in the other thread and it was a nice link !

kcab, I must have missed your post the first time (or we were posting at the same time :)) you are fortunate to have a subject on top of the accel. We are just doing the accel for now and will re-evaluate throughout the year to see where we are. I am not convinced that this is going to solve all our problems. I am sure we will be looking at options down the road. We will find out as we will be in full swing here with summer break ending now!

jesse, I read those on another post. those were nice to read. Thanks for posting.

I love all of the stories and lines... DS5 is now in 1st grade and the private school we had applied to for the fall told me "no way, no how" and that he'd have to repeat Kinder "because of the maturity issue". *rolls eyes*

Some days I do think there might be an issue with that, but he's so smart (and ADHD and ODD) that it would have been a terrible idea to make him repeat.

I guess only time will tell, right?