Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Testing insight--any idea what this might be?

I appreciate the 2-cents! Please! I'm asking for it!

I don't think Shari thought it was apraxia, just that it sounds like it might be a related APD because of the brain-speech connection. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, Shari.)

Certainly, I didn't think it was apraxia, but I thought Shari's point was supportive of it being some APD.


Wow. That's a lot of yes answers...

I still think that you also must make comparisons to VSLs as well and work this into your assessment, which just may need a different way of learning, and tying in the way tests are presented while he's learning. 4+5=9 on a test is the same as OOOO+OOOOO=OOOOOOOOO beads

I don't know how to do the quotes yet; so I am rebutting/commenting on your answers below in brackets again:

"-Have trouble paying attention to and remembering information presented orally

*His WM is a 135, which is much higher than I would have guessed it to be based on how quickly he forgets directions given orally. I make him repeat directions so that he remembers them. This is a pretty strong yes.

[Am I wrong that 135 WM is pretty good? Is this before or after you have his full attention? Bright VSLs can also be ultra-focused!!!]

-Have problems carrying out multistep directions

*Again, he does have trouble with multi-step directions, certainly more trouble than he should have with a 135 WMI. I think he has been relying on his memory quite heavily to cope and it is masking a lot of problems. He will forget the first direction I gave him or the last. If I give him more than 2 things to do, he'll leave at least one out.

[This really just needs practice, and is an expressive language disorder thing too. My DS is great with this now since his SLP worked on this a lot. It is a sequencing thing. I can rattle directions off to him now, which was unheard of a year ago.]


-Have poor listening skills

*I'm less sure about this one. He tends to interrupt conversations inappropriately in ways that his brother never did. He often asks a question and then talks over me while I answer it. It's not utterly age-inappropriate though, so I'm not sure.

[Does it seem like he needs to get it out before he forgets what he wants/needs to say? This is an expressive language disorder thing too, and age-appropriate.:) It needs practice and focus. I personally would like ideas on how to help my own brain with this one.:)]

-Need more time to process information

*Maybe. His processing speed was significantly lower than his VCI and his PRI. It was on the high end of average, though, so it wasn't slow. He's not a kid I'd call fast, certainly.

[still holding to former comment here;)]


-Have low academic performance

*The high level of giftedness makes this hard to answer fairly, I think. I do think he's not been performing as well as he could. It's hard to persuade anyone of that because his is advanced. But that he misses math problems when they're on paper leads me to answer a mild yes to this.

[I believe that with Math, if your DS learned the info on an abacus, with cards, with anything PLUS seeing it on a sheet of paper, it may help him more when he is tested on just a sheet of paper, if he is really visual. It seems to work with mine. I force tying in the written part though, since that is commonplace. I use RightStart Math, which my DS loves, and asks for first before any other school work.]

-Have behavior problems

*No.


-Have language difficulty (e.g., they confuse syllable sequences and have problems developing vocabulary and understanding language)

*Yes, I have seen vocab issues. He has been asking meanings of words I would expect him to know. He started talking in sentences pretty early, but his vocabulary has felt...stuck?...to me for a while. He does not seem at all ahead in this area, despite the fact that he is crazy-talkative. This is a strong yes.

[Look deeper into the SPD definition on this one. I believe that it may be different than what ou are saying. This is an Expressive Language Disorder issue - he still needs to create files in his head first from which to pull the info and vocab words that are in there. ]

-Have difficulty with reading, comprehension, spelling, and vocabulary

*This is a BIG issue! He is not reading fluently, even with work on sight words, though everyone on both sides of the family was reading fluently before turning 4, and several before turning 3. That he is now 6 and still not reading has been a big concern for me, frankly. (I know that not all gifted kids read early, but this just felt wrong for a kid who is so into books and is so talkative.)

However, he is pretty good at sounding out words, and more importantly, he enjoys doing it. That would seem to work against an APD.

[Is he a perfectionist? Or does he have a problem with the rules of the words? Do you think that seeing the words written in the book AND elsewhere would help him? Since DS started using time4learning.com for reading (just the LangArts portion] he has gotten a lot more fluent, but mostly mroe confident. If you read him a book (an I Can Read book), and ask him questions about it after, can he answer them? I think that the fact that he is asking what words means works against the APD as well. Is he is just really literal?...then again Expressive Language Disorder. My DS is gabby as all get out...will not be quiet.:) But he seems vocab-stagnant at times as well. The combination of my gently, but diligently, correcting my DS's speech and his SLP's re-iterating it is helping so much. He won't use the vocab he knows (and can point out and understand its use) in his speech, but this may be a filing problem again. He may still be figuring out where it is filed or where to file it....ELD]

I want you to get the right answers for you as well. You know that! I think your answers are all mostly, "yes, but" though.

Hugs to you! Please, please keep me informed with what you discover. -m

I appreciate your help. I agree that VSL stuff might be a factor. But I don't think that explains everything. And he may have developed his visual strengths *because* of an auditory problem. It may be another coping issue.

The "filing" stuff you suggested in several of your comments doesn't ring true to me for DS6. It doesn't seem like he's trying to access something that's there. It seems like it never got there in the first place. It isn't like he's trying to figure out where or how to file info when he has listening problems, it seems like he doesn't understand what is being said to him. Until I have him repeat it aloud, he literally doesn't know what I said. The porch light is on but no one is home.

No, he's not a literal kid. He's very imaginative.

He is a perfectionist, but that doesn't seem to explain his reading issues. When he tries to do it, it is clearly hard for him. He cannot read, and it seems almost painful for him to try. He doesn't throw a tantrum the way he does when he is frustrated because he can't perform perfectly enough. He seems more...pained?..I guess...than angry or frustrated. Not the same.

135 was a surprisingly high working memory, according to my tester. WMI can go up if one works on it. *I* have not been working with him on his memory at all, and I had no idea that he had such a good memory, saw little evidence of it (aside from his doing 2-digit multiplication in his head, which took me completely by surprise when he started doing it). So I strongly suspect that he's been relying upon his working memory to cope with whatever is wrong.

No, he doesn't seem like he has something to say and has to get it out in a rush. He never does that, actually. He's slow and steady. He does occasionally forget what he was going to tell me if I make him wait while I talk to someone else, but *I* do that, too. That doesn't seem abnormal to me.

The not remembering info is *after* I have his attention. It's not a focus problem. He just can't always make sense of things that I say unless I have him repeat what I said.

I'm sure many of these things can improve with practice. We're not there yet though. We're still just trying to figure out what is wrong. And these *are* things that seem to fit yes answers to the questions.

As many parents of 2E kids do, I suspect I'm having some trouble answering those LD questionnaires with definite answers because gifted kids are so good at compensating. But I did have an awful lot of yes answers...

I hope you find your answers. My DS is very imaginative as well. The 'literalness' is with two different meanings of words sometimes. I don't know what else to think. It is all confusing with GT and VLS in the mix. Please keep in touch! I need to check out the LD questionnaire as well. -m

Thanks, Mom0405! Your questions and insights are really helpful for figuring out what to tell the pros. Some of these things are not things I would have made note of.

Much to chew on...

I hoped to be helpful. Always willing to go back and forth with you.:)

I would say that I am very much like what you are describing, and so is my DS7.

I think it's a matter of needing to hear the words the way you see them, if that makes sense. I don't have to read aloud, but to concentrate on something a lot of times it's necessary to read each word in my head like I was saying it aloud--otherwise, the other noises in my head and around me will drown it out and I find that I have read the same paragraph three times and have no idea what it said. This is for things I need to learn, not really for normal reading, which I do voraciously. If I'm trying to figure something out, I need to say the words in my head in order to "hear" them over the other things that I'm thinking about at the same time. It's the same reason that I need to see things in writing rather than hear them, because they go in one ear and out the other and get lost in all the thoughts in between. A child may need to actually read things aloud in order to make sense of them, before he learns to do the same thing inside his head--I think my DS7 does most of it in his head, but sometimes he really should do it aloud because he misses things.

It sounds like you're getting a real handle on all of this, and that should help tremendously!

Thanks, Nautigal. I think that voice in our heads is the norm. I suspect he's not able to hear that voice in his head for some reason. I try to imagine working to learn something or to solve a problem without that voice in my head.

It does *feel* like I'm getting a handle on it. At least maybe I'm starting to understand better what may be symptoms and what aren't.

It's hard for me to see symptoms/possible problems due to h/s-ing, because I don't see other kids his age to compare frequently enough. He plays at the playground etc with other kids; but I don't follow them around listening to them.:) I thought that my DS's grammar was a huge problem; but listening to other kdis his age mess up past tense verbage (the other day), for example, made me feel better. I am always looking for things to help my DS with (in my head); but I am realizing that some things just have to be learned. I think "that needs to be fixed," while other parents of kids that speak incorrectly are thinking "that's so cute" when their child says something incorrectly. I need to lighten up some.:)

Since DS6 was in pre-K for 2 years and K for a year, and I volunteered in his classes when I could, I think I have some perspective. Though I do feel like I have to be careful not to compare him against his brother who is 3 years older. That's not a good yardstick for "normal."

Before testing, I also felt like I had to beware of comparing him to kids who are gifted or HG or PG, when I wasn't sure that he was gifted, let alone HG or PG. But now that I have some testing info, it does support my instincts that there are some things here that aren't quite right and that he's been using his smarts and his gifted-level memory to compensate, which is probably why it's been hard to name the problems I was sensing and to be sure that they're *really* problems. Twice-exceptionality is a whole different ballgame!

Honestly, I think most of the time he looks and sounds like a very normal, maybe bright-but-not-gifted 6yo. That he is certainly HG+, possibly a DYS candidate, and yet is not reading or enjoying certain learning activities that--knowing his personality and interests--I would think would be perfect for him is troubling to me. I truly believe that whatever is wrong is really getting in his way right now.

I wonder now if some of his emotional hypersensitivity is because he is always fighting with his LD. If everything is a struggle, you're bound to get worn out and feel touchy. He's a very defensive kid a lot of the time. I thought that was just his personality, but I wonder now if it's a reaction to his LD.

I guess I think I've been laidback and in "wait and see" mode for several years now, so I'm sort of coming at it from the other perspective, that the time has come to lighten up *less*, if that makes any sense. I have been hoping that these are things he'd outgrow. Now I think we have evidence that he has a problem that he won't outgrow and that we need to help him with. Maybe the help will be as simple as changing the way we think about him. It may not need any special therapy. I don't know because I don't think we know what's wrong yet. (We're getting there!) But I do think something (or things) will need to change so we can help him.