Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Testing insight--any idea what this might be?

DS6 was just tested in WISC and WJ-III. He did better than I expected, but the most interesting thing we realized has to do with the LD that--as many of you may remember--I've been sensing but have not really been able to make sense of. Up to now, his symptoms have been vague, easy to dismiss as normal for some kids, and hard even to explain to someone.

Well, thank goodness for testing!

We realized that if he is given a math problem on paper and he reads it silently, he gets it wrong most of the time. If he reads the same problem aloud and works it aloud, he gets it right, even with complex, long problems. (Note that *he* does the reading both times, once silently and once aloud. He's not read to, so I'm pretty sure it's not what I would think of as classic dyslexia, where he can't read the numbers or mixes them up.)

Given that he talks *constantly*, we're now thinking that he is not just a chatty extrovert, as we believed his constant talk indicated. It appears that he *MUST* process aloud. That's a real symptom we can sink our teeth into! (I hope...)

Our psych is consulting with a neuropsych and others in her field and will hopefully have more to tell me when I go in for the report later in the summer. In the meantime, I thought I'd ask if anyone here might have a theory about what this is. It sounds like a processing disorder of some sort to me, but that's as far as I can guess, and I freely admit that I could be wrong.

Thoughts? Ideas? Any help?

Thanks, friends!

How are his handwriting and spelling?
http://www.ldinfo.com/dyscalculia.htm
Under strategies:

Thanks, Inky!

He sounds things out well and writes better than most of the kids in his class. (More telling, I think, is that he seems to *enjoy* sounding things out and writing them down. He doesn't avoid them by any stretch.)

His math ability on the achievement test was DYS level, provided he could do the work aloud.

BTW, I tried the LD test on that site, Inky. It seemed promising and I was really hopeful when I took it, but I feel like it doesn't ask the right questions for what DS6 has. Or else his giftedness is making some things look average and is throwing off the results.

*sigh*

It said the only potential problem is an auditory processing disorder. I had considered this before the testing, but I came to no conclusions. Does CAPD/APD make sense? Could he somehow be unable to hear his own voice in his head and therefore have to say it aloud?

I was wondering the same thing. I would think that the voice inside your head for reading would be the same for math but maybe he's reading without using that inner voice.
http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2006/03/can_you_read_without.html
Great news on the DYS scores and it seems like whatever is going on he's found a way to adapt. The self-talk thing could be problem in a typical school environment if the teacher doesn't understand:
http://www.scientificjournals.org/journals2007/articles/1179.

Kriston, I think it's great that you have gotten such insight into how your DS's brain is working! The revelation, alone, that he does better when he hears information than when he more silently just thinks the information, can be very helpful, I would think. Do you find that your DS, in general, learns well through listening?

My DS11 has some of the same issues I've seen you discuss before. I have always ruled out APD, even though DS11 has a long history of ear infections and seems to hear everything around him at the same volume, because he learns so well when things are read or discussed with him. So, what Inky wrote about visual processing difficulties is interesting to me (he has done visual therapy in the past for tracking and teaming issues).

Interestingly, I have always tried to have DS learn things using as many senses as possible. For example, when practicing spelling words I would have him write the words as well as say the letters aloud while he was writing so that he would see them, feel them (as he writes), and hear them. It seems to work. With him, reading aloud allows him to "check" what he is reading because he is more apt to notice if he read something incorrectly. For him this means that reading aloud is less fluent.

Anyway, enough about me! Like I said, I think it's great that you've begun to figure out another piece of the puzzle! It seems like a real "aha" moment! What a fascinating, lovely kid you have there!

He actually seems to be a visual learner. His WISC scores indicate that he's stronger in Perceptual Reasoning, which tracks with his talents at chess, piano and math, so that makes sense to me. This is why we've been so completely flummoxed by what have appeared to be visual problems. For a while it seemed that we had a visual learner who couldn't see well. Now I'm not so sure...

If he *sees* fine, but he can't "hear what he sees," so to speak, it might make sense. A friend here on the forum had suggested APD might fit, and I'm leaning that way.

I wouldn't say that he learns better by listening, actually, no. Now that I think of it, when I give oral directions, I make him repeat them so that he *says them aloud*--!!!



Wow! Anyone else starting to sense a pattern?!

I'm not sure we have IDd the correct cause, but I think we have at least managed to isolate what exactly he is (and *I* am) doing to compensate for whatever he's got going on. That's a really big step forward, I suspect.

Anyone else have other thoughts? Talking about this here and answering questions about what I'm seeing feels really helpful to me!

Thanks!

Kriston,

My DS5 has Apraxia which is a disconnect between his brain and his vocal chords. His brain tells him what to say, then his mouth fails to respond. It is considered an auditory processing disorder. I wonder if this is something similar? The brain doesn't process without the vocal chords engaged?

Interesting, Shari. It does seem similar in concept, doesn't it?

Thanks for posting.

More pushes toward APD...

Anyone care to come up with reasons why it might not be auditory in origin? I spoke with a friend who just by chance happens to be an audiologist, and she wasn't buying my suggestion. I don't think she got that this is not the *traditional* CAPD/APD LD. Whatever he's got going on is not "normal," even for an LD. She kept suggesting that it's a visual problem, but I think that makes less sense.

Anyone think she's right? (Or wrong, for that matter...)



K-

Hi Kriston, Great to hear that you finally got the testing done!

I was just telling my husband, an engineer, about your most recent comments. He just commented that he, and most of the engineers he knows, have to actually 'say' what they are working through to make the connection with their brains. He says that it has nothing to do with hearing it; they could mumble it. But he said that it has to go through his brain in this way to process it (in just another way). Something I just learned that I had in common with my husband.:) And it is very hard for both of us to focus on something with background noises as well. We are both extremely visual.

From what you've told me already, it is not apraxia. My DS's speech therapist said that these kids have difficulty verbalizing any sounds, that it isn't a connection to the brain thing in the way you may think. See this quote from ASHA http://www.asha.org/public/speech/disorders/ChildhoodApraxia.htm
"Childhood apraxia of speech (CAS) is a motor speech disorder. Children with CAS have problems saying sounds, syllables, and words. This is not because of muscle weakness or paralysis. The brain has problems planning to move the body parts (e.g., lips, jaw, tongue) needed for speech. The child knows what he or she wants to say, but his/her brain has difficulty coordinating the muscle movements necessary to say those words."

Here are my thoughts of why he probably does not have CAPD either; but you know your child best. I hope that you don't mind all of my two cents+++.:) This list is from
http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/voice/auditory.asp And I have commented next to each [in brackets] why it doesn't seem to fit either.

"What are the symptoms of possible auditory processing difficulty?
Children with auditory processing difficulty typically have normal hearing and intelligence. However, they have also been observed to

-Have trouble paying attention to and remembering information presented orally [Visual kids need a combination of learning tools to "understand," not memorize - as memorizing doesn't make sense to them if the understanding is not there. Understanding is what they need. They are trying to make connections to other information; so it is not a matter of paying attention, but actually making worldly connections to what they are learning.]
-Have problems carrying out multistep directions [didn't you tell me that 'easy was hard and hard was easy' for him? - also like mine...this was an issue before, but with practice is now a non-issue.]
-Have poor listening skills [Do you have to get his attention first, and then he listens fine? - Again, he is making connections to the world. How does everything relate?]
-Need more time to process information [I don't remember you saying that this is an issue, except that he may be just thinking through things, and then the next day, he gets it?? - again like mine.]
-Have low academic performance [a non-issue]
-Have behavior problems [also, a non-issue, especially in our hs environments:)]
-Have language difficulty (e.g., they confuse syllable sequences and have problems developing vocabulary and understanding language) [non-issue as well, right?. He has the vocab, but he doesn't use it, right? Expressive Language Disorder symptom - although it may not be this.:)]
-Have difficulty with reading, comprehension, spelling, and vocabulary [non-issues as well, right? If there is a spelling issue, it may because he is not into sounding out words, like most VSLs, just having lots of sight words -- sound familiar? - this just needs practice, as you already know.;)]

I do think that you should have an SLP evaluate him if you are still looking for answers. I wouldn't mind anyone else's insight and comments on my thoughts as well. We are a year out in testing my DS; and Kriston's and my son sound very similar.