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Lots of us here have experienced the cognitive dissonance that some 'GT people' at school seem to have very little experience with some of the subtler aspects of giftedness. LOG, in particular, is totally lost on many. Since my son fits the perfect 'school profile' of loud and extroverted, I haven't been sensitised to this part of it. But I'm still heartbroken that my son's elementray school Principle almost fainted when I casually mentioned that I was planning for DS to take the College Board's SAT 1 in 7th grade.

I think your DH is right on, and would suggest you practice: 'Still Water's Run Deep,eh?' with a mysterious knowing nod and eyebrow raise. Practice the body language, because that's the best way to get your emotional point across.

You could also try gushing: "It's it great that she has such a high EQ that she doesn't want to alienate her agemates by using big words that they don't understand."

or

"Isn't it mature and cute how she percieves that the other children needs so much more of the teacher's attention and holds back to try and benifit them?"

or

"Well, given the poor fit, I don't think it's a suprise that she doesn't feel safe enough to show very much in the classroom, do you?"

or

"I think she is well aware of how kids treat the child who is different. I think that being quiet in school is an excellent coping stratagy. Let's experiment by moving her to a classroom where she will be less odd, ok?"

OK - I'm going a bit overboard on the obnoxious-meter here, but sometimes practicing what you don't want to say is a great way to find that comfortable middle ground.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

We're all over the shy/outgoing and introvert/extrovert map in our family. I am definitely an introvert and was very shy until I had kids (and I still don't like certain situations where I feel on-the-spot; I used to whisper correct answers to my friends in high school so that I wouldn't have to raise my hand and speak!). DH is not shy but does tend to be more introverted. DS11 is extremely shy and introverted and I can't see age changing that a ton -- although with growing up I hope he does gain some confidence (which, to me, is a different issue). DD8 used to be shy, but this year with the grade acceleration is no longer shy and is showing herself to be quite extroverted. I think, in her case, keeping her with agemates contributed to her shyness since she was trying so hard to fit in that she couldn't show who she truly was. And DS6 has always been both extroverted and outgoing, both before his grade acceleration and after.

So, in answer to your question, I don't think it was a mistake to consider grade skipping. I think that it can work for any personality type. It's success depends on the kid and any number of factors, but I've personally seen it work well for a shy kid. (Although I do remember that DD's 1st grade teacher knew she was advanced but never thought to do anything about it since DD was so quiet and never caused any problems; I also remember the receiving third grade teacher at the beginning of her subject accelerations being worried that the accelerations wouldn't work because DD was so shy.)

In general, though, I agree that it can be much harder to know what is in the brain of a gifted shy introvert than a gifted outgoing extrovert. My DD8 is probably a higher LOG than my DS6, but the difference is that DD8 often suprises us with what she knows because she keeps most of her thought processes to herself, but DS6 talks non-stop about everything going on in his little head!

It's been my observation that the needs of the quiet ones who don't make trouble aren't met 'because' the child never causes problems, while the needs of the 'acting-out-y' child aren't met because the child't bad behavior 'proves' that they aren't ready for acceleration.

If the school makes a commitment to met the needs of ALL the children, then they need to set up systems to evaluate what each child's needs are, and have a range of options availible to match the child's needs to the intervention option. This takes a lot of will on the part of school people or parents to step outside of 'the way things always are' and move toward basic decency.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

I completely agree. If there was a system to evaluate the needs of every child and then to act on those demonstrated needs, that would go a long way. Often the kids are, in fact, tested in this way (three-times yearly MAP tests, anyone?) but then nothing is done with the results. If this was done, kids wouldn't have to scream "Gifted AND well-behaved!" from the rooftops to be accommodated.

What about the IOWA acceleration, does it step through shy versus outgoing? Even if it doesn't it might be evidence to back up how this shouldn't be a factor. And if it does consider it, how much weight does it place on these differences?

LOL! I knew they were outrageous, but please reconsider about THINKING them. One of them may actually be true! And even if none of them are true, they maybe close enough that they could start you thinking of the 'comeback' that is true.

When I listen in on the Young Scholar email lists, one story that gets told over and over is that of a shy child, getting to the big yearly gathering, and suddenly starting to act like a chatterbox/life of the party. This is by no means universal - some kids get there and are overwhelmed by the sensory overload. Some truly are shy. Some don't like the games that the other kids are playing. But I get all choked up hearing over and over stories of parents who thought that they 'knew their kid' suddently seeing an entirely different side to them.

Why do teachers as a group think that shy behaviors occur in kids who aren't able to do the work? It is because many kids who act shy at school lack confidence. Why might a child lack confidence? Most do lack confidence because they often find themselves at a loss to do what is being asked of them at school. (Although sometimes it's a cultural issue, and some are just naturally shy.) Most of the kids lack confidence because they feel that they aren't doing the school work well enough - but some kids feel incapable socially.

Why wouldn't a kid feel like a social failure if the very words they naturally use are unknown to their agemates? If the games they like require reading and their classmates don't know how? If when they do answer in class they can feel their classmates disconnect from their answer? If the things their parents value are different from what the other kid's parents value? If they can remember every slight from years and years ago and their classmates appear to have no memory of the past at all? What if they suspect that they know more about something than the teacher, and that the teacher would have a problem with that, but don't really want to be sure?

I hoping that I'm not talking about anyone's kid here, but I remember feeling most of those things from time to time.
MON, you won't really know if your child is shy 'no matter what' or just socially aware enough to appropriatly be 'dialing back' her in-school participation until you get her into situations that suit her better. Teachers don't always like kids who 'ask a lot of questions' and your daughter might have picked up on that in one classroom and carried that idea into other classrooms where the teachers don't feel that way.

As far as acceleration helping the social match, I don't think there are any studies that have come up with it harming, even for shy kids. I notice that Iowa Accleration Scale Manual doesn't deduct points for introversion, but if you email the author, she will probably get back to you on it.

I don't think extroversion increases with age, but I do think that there is a certian amout of learning social scripts that happens over time. I think that the general assumption is that kids who are struggling academically are going to act insecurity, and so keeping them back might prevent the academic struggle and prevent the insecurity, see? OTOH, if the insecurity is not from academic stuggle, but rather from the academic fit being way below the readiness level, I don't think any confidence can grow from that.

Even if DS10 loves to speak to 5 year olds, you wouldn't want him in a classroom with them 6 hours a day, yes? Some gifted kids like to be with younger kids because then they can be leaders without having to fight for it, or because the younger children are more in touch with their imaginative side.

So get rid of my responses, and find ones of your own. If they come off a touch 'superior' then certianly don't say them aloud where anyone can hear you, but say them enough that you figure out ways to wear down the pointy edges, ok?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

The Iowa acceleration scale does include social skills questions, not only the child's own functioning in groups but things like whether s/he is involved in extracurricular activities.

However, the scale seems to weight the scores on academic testing as far more important than these social questions, which means a kid with shyness or social "deficits" can still be rated as appropriate for a grade-skip.

DeeDee

Not only can a person be introverted versus extroverted in general, but add giftedness with a bit of perfectionism, underachievement, or imposter syndrome, and some of us can get pretty quiet and deep into our own thoughts.

Knowing that there are many of "us" introverts out there who "get it" is helpful for me and any child, I imagine.

[Copying Grinity's comebacks and posting them on the wall. ]

Here is that article about gifted and shy:

http://www.dukegiftedletter.com/articles/vol6no2_ee.html

Love it!

My youngest takes a while to warm up and I was worried that her teachers would take this as a sign that the subject acceleration was problematic. Once she gets comfortable though, watch out!

Thought this was a good way to explain it from a chapter on exclusion in a book called Why Good Kids Act Cruel:Jesse, thanks for posting that Duke article too.

I can't stand this attitude. My son is not introverted but he absolutely would not represent their program well, either. He challenges, talks back, sulks, chooses when to answer per his own desires, and generally is an annoying kid at times (according to teachers). He is the kid who shoots his hand in the air, yet if it is a topic that is not of interest (or the 10th review of a topic) he will flip his pencil around, bother the person sitting next to him, or purposely fall out of his chair. We get the same attitude about his lack of fit in a GT program as well.

Although I cringe when I hear the teachers talk about his behavior, I am a little bit proud inside. I was/am introverted and shy and would only raise my hand if forced to, or only answer if directly asked. It is a hard way to be, but we didn't have GT programs when I was a kid until high school AP stuff which we got into automatically due to grades and test scores, I guess...so I do not remember any discrimination; however I never got recognized (that I know of) until high school. I received the most scholarships in my graduating class and I still remember the look of amazement and comments from my FRIENDS. YOU got the most scholarships??? I was actually embarrassed at the time.

When a student uses "programmed instruction" -- for example EPGY -- he/she advances based on what he/she has learned. That may be a better model than using the subjective judgments of teachers to determine academic placement. It won't happen any time soon, unfortunately, so in the mean time afterschool your daughter so that she progresses according to her abilities.