Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Advice on grade skip

Wren, It sounds like the elementary school you describe is highly competitive. It would seem that either many kids are hot-housed to get these scores, the test is not appropriate to differentiate the HG and PG kids or it's a hot spot for PG kids. Do you feel there is an elitist attitude going on? In our school, teacher work their hardest not to point out GT kids, because of the "everyone is gifted in their own way" kind of attitude. But they are quick to point out sports achievements:) This kind of school would be a great place for a kid feeling out of place otherwise or it may make them feel average or discouraged in this environment.

But then what is this forum about? We talk about gifted kids needing challenge. What if they feel average if they are with a bunch of other gifted kids? In my opinion, and experienced, they will work harder. They will develop the skills and study habits the average kid develops to get good grades in the run of the mill school. Kids like me, who didn't have to study to be top of the class, develop terrible study habits, there isn't that competitive edge to push yourself.
There is a private gifted school in Brooklyn. I toured it this fall. It is progressive, no tests, no grades (and the kids get into all the top colleges without grades)and it is suppose to provide a non pressure environment. This school I am talking about is progressive until 6th grade, then they go to rote learning. But they found you have to. But I am not an educator. Just participating in this discussion as a diletante.

Ren

Ren,

I guess I'd say this forum is about us parents with challenging parenting situations all coming together to share information and opinions. It's designed to be a place where you can pretty much say whatever you want in a "safe" environment. However, we all do have different opinions from time to time. I've had a post here or there where I didn't feel like people were getting what I was trying to say. Sometimes things get lost in e-translation.
I would say even though we are not all alike, we do like each other.
Glad you found us, glad you are here.

Incog

Ren,

If your post was in response to mine, I hope you didn't misunderstand me. I find it amazing that all kids applying to this school you talked about are in the 98th percentile. What I meant is that they need a better test to differentiate btw. all these kids. How else do they determine who is accepted? For example, DD9 just took an Explore test that helps to differentiate among the kids who test in the 95-99th percentile in regular grade achievement testing. Research has shown that there is variance even among the kids who score "gifted" and this test helps to highlight some of those differences. If my DD was applying to a school that everyone scored 98th percentile for entrance exams, I would like to know what kind of testing tool it is (IQ vs. academic) as I feel that although GT kids can be nurtured and molded, it isn't something you can inherently teach a child. There may be some bright (not GT) kids in the bunch that absorb a lot of information that may be a product of hot-housing. Not suggesting that this is the case, but a hypothetical question. Therefore an IQ test may be able to help differentiate there.

I hope I didn't come across the wrong way. I was more intrigued and just threw a bunch of questions out there out of curiosity. Sorry for rambling:)

Oh Ren,
this is very well said! Yes they know which of their behaviors brings out the catch in our throats and the shine in our eyes - whatever that maybe. And when they get a little older, they tease us about it. Right now my DS11 is teasing us that he is our science project to see how much rock 'n roll trivia from 5 decades we can squeeze into one little brain. Still, he can almost tell Jethro Tull from Emerson, Lake and Palmer - and we are just so proud!

So I think that the advice to praise effort is a good way for us to focus our unconsious reactions, to become the parents our kids need us to be, and doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing.

Let me tell you, when your kid looks in your eyes and askes "Do you ever wish I was normal?" your heart will drop down to around your knees, and you will be glad for those unguarded moments when your body language just shows that yes! you love learning and you love that they love to learn!

Thanks for bringing that though back to the surface.
Grinity

I think we all believe that a certain amount of challenge is good for our kids, but there many many different ways of creating challenge. Demanding schools are one way.

But there are many others. A lot of what we do here is share our ideas and experiences. But we also recognize that what works for one kid might be miserable for another.

I was not challenged much at all academically in high school, but took the opportunity created by not ever having much homework to try things I would not otherwise do, like run for student counsel and take tap dancing lessons. These challenges (some of which provided opportunities for true failure) were really growing experiences for me. I was able to transfer those skills quickly into academics when I got to college. It worked out fine for me.

For our son, we realized early on that we needed to provide him with opportunities to learn perseverence because academics came easily to him. We chose violin lessons when he was 5. He is not musically gifted, but he has been playing violin for 7 years now and is being invited to perform throughout the community. He worked for that and it did not come easily. He wants to keep playing, which means an hour or so of practice a day at this point (much less when he was younger). He will never be a great violinist, but he will be a competent one and that gives him pleasure. If he were in a challenging academic environment, he might not have the time or energy to keep playing. We are not willing to risk that.

I know several men who are HG+ who hated school and hated academic challenge. They wanted to learn because they were curious. They never needed to be pushed to learn or learn-how-to-learn, because their drive is intrinsic. They resented schools trying to teach them because they already had their own goals which were different than the school's. One is a self-taught airplane mechanic, another a farmer, and another a ship's captain. They are all successful and highly respected. They would have been miserable in any kind of formal schooling, even one for highly gifted. I suspect homeschool would have made their childhoods less painful, but it was not an option when they were young.

So, yes, we talk about challenge, but we also talk about how to get the best fit. And personality, values of the family, and availability of options are all very important as well.

First of all, for those that thought I was angry or frustrated, no, just posting for debate.

Question, I thought one of the "characteristics" of the gifted child was competitiveness? Or is that what they call the drive to learn?

Thank you acs for your post. It is interesting that these gifted elementary schools bring in violin lessons by grade 4. I totally understand what you are saying. Although my formal academic background is in science (engineering college) I never worked in the sciences, went right to Wall Street and was self taught. But it was my drive that this knowledge path was right for me. It worked because it fit my internal drive to understand that field. It helped that I understood applied calculus.

Have a good day everyone.

Ren

ROFL! Oh my! We are a serious and sincere bunch, not your best candidates for debating - srry!
Grinity

Hmm, I've never heard that, Wren, that a characteristic of gifted children is competitiveness. Have you got a citation?

Personally, I think competitiveness is an entirely different issue than a drive to learn, and almost opposed, if you think about it. A drive to learn is a drive to better oneself -- there's no competition in that at all, really, except against the clock or against one's self. There's no winner or loser -- there's just one child's drive "to know" for his own pleasure.

For what it's worth, I was completely under-challenged in school (despite a one-year grade skip) and my ability to learn for the love of learning was lost by about age 8. I was done putting effort into school. So by the time it got remotely interesting (high school, for me), I didn't know how to study -- I studied the very least I needed to and did well mainly on my prodigious ability at multiple choice tests. I did well in school -- I have two bachelor's degrees from recognisable schools. But I feel I could have actually learned more and enjoyed more while I was there, if I had a better work ethic.

And *that* is what I'm hoping to accomplish for my son when I post here. I'm trying to make sure that he keeps that zest for knowledge that he has now.

Mia, I have posted exactly the same thing. I totally lost my love of learning and had bad habits also. The only that kept me passing in college was the math, since I had no study skills or discipline. And I am doing the exact same thing with my daughter.

Obviously my verbosity is lacking -- due to losing that love of learning.

I was not putting that competitiveness thing up for debate, I actually thought I saw that on a site. Either a hoagies link or something. I swear I did. Because it caught me by surprise.

A hypothesis: My husband, who didn't do the grade skip and never lost his love his learning, reads 2-3 books a week. Has a fact file that rivals Brittanica. My brain is not word driven. I store tapes, I remember things by saying them outloud in my head, I visualize tapes. And I analyze til the cows come home. Perhaps it is the way our brains work that make us get bored more easily and lose our love our learning.

Any comments from those who have been working with your kids longer and have experience on their learning styles?

Ren