Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums GT Research Newsweek article /Men, Women and IQ

Well, I may be opening a can of worms here, but I found this Newsweek article interesting:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/101079

Dd is in a self-contained gifted program. When she started, the boys outnumbered the girls by about 5:1. The margin has gone down a little since then, but it is most certainly not 1:1. I am wondering if this has something to do it. Maybe gifted girls are not identified as readily as the boys?


--Celia

Don't know, GS just started the pull-out gifted program for math. He's 3rd grade, there are 2 boys, 4 girls, in his program.

Dottie, the WISC tests are IQ tests, right? Does your state have a guideline on what to use to identify GT students? Does your school administer the WISC?

Thanks. Our school uses the Iowa Test of Basic Skills to evaluate a student for the gifted program. Ohio law allows any nationally normed test to be used.

Could it be that gifted girls tend to "blend" in better in regular classrooms?

I was wondering that myself bianc. I know for myself, I did everything in my power to blend in elementary school and I could see myself doing terrible on a group test. Not that we were screened at my school anyway.

Thanks for the article link!
It reminds me of a (Far Side) I think, cartoon that our daughter described to us at dinner a couple of nights ago.
It is essentially a split screen were a slender woman in a bikini is looking in the mirror and sees a distortedly fat image looking back, while an out of shape man with a large gut hanging over his Speedo sees himself as a Mr. Universe prototype in his mirror!

I think girls are more motivated by social acceptance. I have two girls, they want to blend. I would guess that generational bias has to do with recognizing gifted girls. I would guess a "younger" teacher would be more aware of gifted traits in girls than an "older" one.
As a side note, I worked in investments and purposely lowered the tone in my voice when speaking in "work" situations. Not so much that I sounded like a freak, of course!
But I definately felt I was "listened" to more if I did this.

I

Just adding to the GT class boy-girl ratio:

DD7's 2nd grade GT class has 4 students - ALL girls!

I dont know the ratio in the other classes but I am going to guess that girls outnumber the boys.

Just my 2cents:

I think one of the reasons that more boys may be identified as gifted at an earlier age is that so many of them are sent for testing for ADHD type behavor issues. DS's 3rd grade pull out has 4 boys and 1 girl in it. According to the other parents, all of the boys were identified early due to behavior problems. Our school doesn't test for gifted until the end of 3rd grade for a 4th grade start.

A couple comments:

Our self-contained gifted class for "exceptional" students has always been predominantly boys. For the first time in 8 yrs, we have 6 girls and 12 boys (previously it was only 1 or 2 girls at any time).

While I have no daughters, I see moms of very gifted girls focus on appearance, clothes, dance, music (almost back to 1800s Jane Austen times) rather than academic accomplishments. My niece (now age 7) scored 150 on IQ test 3 yrs ago. My very intelligent sister, who was skipped 3 times herself, has not investigated "gifted" or out of the ordinary paths/challenges for her daughter (of course I constantly email her information, but she's just not interested). Are there different expectations for girls?

Most of the valedictorians from the two high schools in town are girls...This doesn't necessarily relate to IQ--it's more work ethic. I wonder if there's an "obedience" component of getting great grades that is more suited toward women. For example, if a class is boring and an assignment or paper is bogus, my son will rush through because he feels confident and empowered to make the assessment that it is not worth much of his valuable time/effort. On the other hand, when I was a student, I would have worked to complete the assignment to the best of my ability, without questioning how worthwhile is was.

Hmmm....that's interesting. I was identified late myself, and I think it WAS a confidence issue. ( I remember being extremely nervous and unwilling to cooperate on the IQ test.)

What I found interesting is the discussion of spatial abilities being stronger in boys. My DD's did not do well on the NNAT (a visual-spatial test)which they had to take for GT screening at their school. However, they are both highly verbal and most likely gifted but not yet identified. The NNAT developers claim that there is no gender of racial bias, but I've found conflicting research on this.

I probably tend to underestimate my own abilities. I wonder why we females do this?

Me, too! I see it all the time in high school boys. They can be so cocky.

Cym and Elh, I have seen the same thing with my dd. She will complain about her assignments directly to the teacher, but after a few months of it, I start to hear things at home. By that time, she's already told me that some of the boys in her class have been already sent to the principal's office, because they just cannot tolerate having to sit and listen to endless repetition of something they already know. Since she does not exhibit bad behavior in class, it puts the onus on me to advocate for her in these situations. (If it was really a problem, she'd be acting out, right?)

I will say that being in a school for gifted children has helped her, because she is more like "one of the crowd." She really does just want to fit in, at an age where some of her friends are deciding that being popular is way better than being smart.

--C.

This operates in our house. I've occasionally met gifted girls who act 'like boys' in this regard - and boy oh boy do they catch flack! So I think it's easier to be a dis-obedient boy as that's just more withint the expected boy parameters. OTOH, I don't think my DS has the ability to read his teachers as well as most girls - so even when he is temporarily motivated to obey, he has a tougher time getting into the teacher's head and giving what is wanted. FWIW, DS would strongly dissagree with this last statement - he believes he knows what the teachers mean even when he doesn't. Perhaps a key skill to listening is clearning one's minds of the perception that one already knows what is going to be said? I've always thought my kid had a stone tablet memory when the other kids were given etch-a-sketches- very difficult for him to 'reset.'

Smiles,
Grinity

I overheard about a study once that showed that when popularity was measured amoung bright boys, average boys, bright girls and average girls - the bright boys came out on top and bright girls were at the bottom. Not sure if that's true, but it fit my experience growing up that the key to popularity in K-12 School was masking my intelligence - to whatever expent I could. I think that many girls don't want to give up social exceptance, hide, and then come to believe their performance.

Sad, but next time I nag you to test all the siblings, know that this issue is in my mind, ok?

Grinity

It fits my experience, too. I was brainy and unpopular in high school. In college where I was surrounded by many more people like me, I was suddenly cool.

I also want to add that I think girls try to pressure and tease smart girls in order to put them down and make them feel less special. I'm seeing it with DD9. She's smart, pretty, athletic, a class leader, etc. Other girls are starting to say things to her like "your eyebrows are too close together" or "you'll never win that spelling bee, so don't even try". Girls are just plain mean to each other.

It'd be interesting to see who creates IQ tests (men?) and maybe there are different "gifts" more associated with women that aren't measured. Intuition for one--we all know the cliche is true and important. Social skills. Knowing what people want to hear and being able to say that. There's been a bias against ESL kids, cultural biases, probably also sex bias.

I know a lot of girls are identified gifted here, but not a lot highly gifted. Behavior is frequently the red flag, and only once in our program has a girl had a behavior issue (this year). Very interesting.

I remember taking IQ test and I'm certain I didn't answer things quickly or with great resolve...more tentatively. My boys seem to have such conviction about everything, which clearly must help on timed tests.

So true. Historically, most IQ tests probably have been devised by men. I wonder what skills would be emphasized if women developed an IQ test.

Boys are definitely more apt to take risks. I was NOT a risk taker as a kid.

OMG! LOL!

Maybe she's EXTRA gifted, and her group was merely conducting a science experiment on combustibility?

(tee-hee-hee!)

I'm going to take this opportunity to recommend a book I have read called Alpha Girls. For you who have not read it, it presents a strong impression of the upcoming generation of girls. I found it quite heartening.

I

OMG - this is one of my favorite daydreams!
How about this one - the tester shows the testee a tray of 10 common household items. The tester "puts them away" in various places around the room. 30 minutes later the testee has to try and find them. LOLROFL!

Smiles,
Grinity

One of my special gifts is to be able to make dinner, something people actually like, from whatever happens to be in the fridge. I just look in the fridge and in a few seconds I just *know* what we'll eat. Much the same way DS solves a math problem. Call it gustatory intelligence--can anyone devise a test for that?

I love Dotties idea!!!
Grin

Sadly, my genius is spikey. I can make great food out of dull leftovers (and I rarely use recipes), but I don't clean up. Ask DH! So I'd do badly on that scale.

How about a test of social skills? The child needs to go out into the lobby and borrow a pencil from a the secretary. Then the child is ranked on both success in getting the pencil and also a score from the secretary about how much she enjoyed the interaction. It seems that for many women, our intelligence is about getting what we need, while making others feel good.

Acs,
Super! I'd love to have your gift with leftovers even if it didn't extend to clean up. When we get the new topics will you do an online seminar?
Grinity

LOL! I'm not such a great cook, but I am really good at finding exactly the right size container for leftovers. My DH calls it "having the volume eye."

Cathy

I'd fail this completely--I get the container wrong EVERY time!


I'd ace this, too! It's a good skill to have!


Is there a man alive who can pass this one? HA!

I'd add a triathalon: get a family of kids out the door and into the minivan with all the necessary backpacks, snacks, coats, hats, books, toys, sippy cups, etc. while answering "why" questions until you're blue in the face, all without losing your cool. Extra points if you remember not to leave your coffee cup on the table by the door!

Love the triathalon Kriston! I'll give extra points if all the backpacks are black, if some of them contain afterschool activity stuff and are placed in the staging area as red herrings. I'll deduct points if the coffee cup is left on top of the Minivan. Remember - this is a timed test! And no fair getting a really good score the first day due to the novelty factor - this is the kind of test on needs to do daily for 3 months before at scoring date.


Grinity

I love it!

Anecdote. When I did the testing for the gifted preschool, heard there were high majority of girls born in 2004 meeting the critieria. Year of the monkey, but I do not know why girls were prominent.

Ren

I like the triathalon idea a lot! Let's throw in the youngest child has to go to the bathroom as soon as you are standing outside with the door locked. And they're wearing snow pants. Muhahaha! If only this didn't happen regularly at our house

Laughing so hard I'm gonna have to change MY snowpants over that one! Go Kimck!

No, the youngest has just been buckled into the carseat! That's the one that makes me lose my cool. "You couldn't have told me you had to go 2 minutes sooner?!? Aaaauuuuugggggghhhhh!"

Ah, ain't it good to be a mom?