Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy School meeting worries

We have been homeschooling DS7 for 2 years now...we attempted public school for about 6 weeks at the beginning of this school year and it was a disaster...we went in with a full psych report showing how DS needed a grade skip and we discussed our concerns with how to meet his needs between his gifted side and the fact that he has Dyspraxia that has led to handwriting issues. They pretty much ignored everything and said let's just see how he does....he was bored silly and started to get into trouble so after 6 weeks we went back to homeschooling....

fast forward and we are now discussing what is going to happen for next year...our options...our neighborhood was rezoned to another school and so we have discussed trying to go there, attend a private school about an hour's drive away that has under 40 students and is really cool or continue homeschooling. DS7 said he wants to visit both schools and then talk some more - we really want him to feel like he has a decision in what occurs next year.

I set up a big meeting tomorrow to discuss his IEP and next year...his IEP is for Speech, OT and Gifted and they will be bringing in a staff member from the new zoned school to talk with me (so getting services isn't an issue - all that has been in place for awhile). Last time we had a big pow wow to discuss plans for the upcoming year they pretty much steamrolled me and wouldn't listen to any of my concerns or the psych's report so I am really worried. I was totally intimidated with the amount of people at the table. I don't want to come across as the pain in the hiney parent but I don't want a repeat of our last big meeting. I am trying to come in prepared...I printed out a copy of the Guidelines for Developing an Academic Acceleration Policy and some reports/studies about accelerating children. I am aso sharing his EPGY printout reports to show how he is beyond his grade level for next year. I was trained when I was teacher on how to give the state assessment called DIBELS (which is a reading assessment)...so I went online and printed out the 4th,5th,6th grade reading assessments and tested DS7 and the reports show how he is reading at a 6th grade level.

I am just really worried about this meeting and am concerned that they will just come back with all the same comments..."all children are gifted"...."it is not a good idea to move him into a different peer age group"...blah blah blah...DS7 is actually the size of a 10 year old and his best friends are all 9 and 10 years old so that is not a concern for us. Our concern is getting his needs met because if they don't he will look for other things to keep himself busy....such as mischief.

Any other suggestions so I don't get steamrolled again?

Reading this helps get me in the right frame of mind for school meetings. Good luck!
http://www.fetaweb.com/01/assert.sherrett.htm

Belle, it sounds like you're prepared with the DIBELS and EPGY scores. You might also print out the standards for third grade and check off the ones your son has already met. Our school district has them online. And any other achievement scores -- SCAT? My sons' school is more interested in how high-achieving they are than their IQ scores.
They will try to steamroll you again, but you're not going to let a little steam get to you! Good luck!

Thanks guys - I am just feeling flustered....I do have the standards already printed out for both 2nd and 3rd and have gone through and he has covered all the 2nd grade and is pretty much covered all of 3rd as well - minus the handwriting - we have the Woodcock Johnson Achievement test scores from last summer that we presented to them at last year's meeting and they ignored them- it showed he was several grade levels ahead in both reading and math. I am bringing some samples of things he has worked on and pictures of activities/projects he has done.

I brought up the IOWA Acceleration Scale last year and asked if we could do that to give them a better idea if acceleration would be a good fit for him and they said they don't do that in this county.

I really want to advocate either a grade skip from 2nd to 3rd or having him be allowed to go up to 3rd for reading/math/science (which in my mind would be the majority of the day anyways so just go ahead and do a skip)...and I want everything/paperwork in place BEFORE the school year. Last year I tried my darndest to get everything discussed/planned out so that we would start the year in the right setting for him but that of course did not work....I really am not wanting to settle for the "let's wait and see" approach that was put in place at the beginning of this year's disaster. I am also not too thrilled if they bring up the idea of allowing his teacher to differentiate his curriculum for him - I believe that he deserves to be in a classroom listening to lessons that are on his level and not stuck in some corner of the room to work on harder worksheets.

I wish my DH could come...he is staying home from work in the morning to watch DS7...I have pondered asking one of my good friends but didn't know what relevence that would bring to the meeting from the staff's viewpoint other than just sheer support for me :-) Thanks guys for making me feel like I can DO THIS!

Belle, would your husband be willing to go to the meeting? My sister takes her husband along to her meetings with the school and she says he gets treated differently.
They're going to stall you again, change the subject and hope you go away, so keep it on topic. If they say no, then ask what the appeal process is, who you should talk to at the district office. Try to determine next steps and schedule the next meeting before leaving.
Oh and take notes so that you can document what they said.

Belle,

One thing I do is think about these meetings as a "war of attrition." It is a terrible analogy, but. . .

Could your friend watch your other child so that your DH could go with you? Is there another way you could work it so your DH could attend, I find that makes a world of difference.

Think about concrete questions. For example, "does this district have a written (and board approved) policy regarding acceleration. Regarding subject acceleration..., etc." Have you studied your board of ed's stated policies and made sure you know exactly what they are. Are you up on state law re: gifted ed ? All of these can come in v. handy. I found that once I knew our local district policies really well, I could catch the administrators who BS'ed about them all the time (hasn't helped a lot yet, but I believe that knowledge is still useful).

Good luck, keep posting and keep asking questions. Cat

Here's my thoughts..... I was planning a meeting at DC's school and was SOOOO PREPEARED to be shot down that I had prepared all sorts of research backed information, a portfolio, scores, a proposal as to not only what I wanted to see done but how etc. I prepared for the worst and all of my preparation helped DH and I present our case and while expecting the worst.... we got the best. I was SHELLSHOCKED! They flat out were all for it and their main thing was that what we provided was research backed. I presented the IAS, like you, and was floored that they were willing to do this though it's never been done before so... in other words... prepare for the worst, and you may be pleasantly surprised. Be prepared, be knowledgable and not only present your proposal but how to go about it as well. We pretty much laid the ground work and that took a lot of the guess work out of it for them since it was new for them as well. GOOD LUCK! I think if DH could attend with you it presents a unified front as well that you are in full support together. I had to have a friend watch my kids too but it was worth it. It also helps to have another set of ears there as sometimes you hear things one way and DH hears them another.

I'd try to get DH to be there too. It probably shouldn't make a difference but I've found it does...both with how the school responds and my confidence at the meetings.

Belle, I agree with all the others that suggest including DH. Just seems to be a fact of life that the guys get treated differently.

On other thing I think I've mentioned on this board before. Regardless of how the meeting goes - i suggest that you write a letter formally requesting exactly what you want. Under Florida law, the school is basically required to give you what you want (a full grade acceleration to 3rd, or whatever else you think is appropriate and ask for) or justify and document why they won't (that's a little simplistic, but close enough for discussion purposes).

I was steamrolled for nearly six months on a request for accomodations, including a full grade skip in a different county in Florida, until I put the request in writing and basically referred to the relevant state law and regulation in that letter. I also pointed out what accomodations I was requesting as an alternative if they refused the skip (basically what a pain I would make it to accomodate in a regular classroom if they didn't comply). Suddenly the week before school started, the skip materialized.

Another thing I did was refer to the Student Progression Plan, which sets standards for when students can be promoted to the next grade and conversely retained when they don't meet those standards. I found that using their own written policy I could show that my child met the standards for progession to the next grade - mastery of performance standards (Sunshine State Standards, FCAT, etc), achievement of performance levels (your EPGY and DIBELS data), etc. If those are the standards for a second grader to be promoted to 3rd grade then why not my child.

Also, I think I recall that you are in Brevard, right? The Student Progression Plan in Brevard has a page devoted specifically to grade acceleration and establishes specific critera.

I do recognize that in my case, the county staff were basically supportive and accelerations had been done in other schools in the district, but my school was adamant about the refusal until that letter. It sounds like your problems may go beyond the school all the way up to district, despite the info in the SPP. Depending on the outcome of your meeting, maybe consider sending the letter to the school with copies to appropriate district respresentatives - gifted curriculum specialist, curriculum director, district superintendent, board members - depending on how political you want to make it.

Goo luck with the meeting!

Prissy I may need to PM you for some info....well the meeting was a complete and utter joke. We worked it out for DH to come with me and then at the last second before we needed to go, he got called into an emergency meeting - so no DH :-(

We got his IEP review done - still in Speech/OT/Gifted (even though he has never been allowed access to it since we homeschool) for next year...then the discussion began about acceleration/ or options for next year.

The guidance counselor and the gifted teacher from the new zoned school came to the meeting and I could kiss my son's speech teacher because she really tried hard to advocate for DS7....so did the gifted teacher who has never even met him.

I was told by the guidance counselor (and that she was also speaking for the principal) that by no way/shape/form would they agree to an acceleration at this point even with all of our testing/data/full psychologist report/work samples...because they said that they would be just "taking our word for it" - I told her and showed her the sunshine state standards and how all of the 2nd grade standards had been already completed and that I would be very happy to share work/projects showing this mastery and she said that she didn't know me and that I could be just "stretching things" and they wanted to see him sit in the classroom for the first 9 weeks and be able to willingly and without argument complete "normal" 2nd grade work with no issues before they would even consider differentiating work for him. So I asked them how fair is it that this child who is clearly doing way above 2nd grade work be forced to sit in a classroom for 9 weeks doing work that he has already mastered and then shared our nightmare experience this past year where they made us do the exact same thing - they refused any kind of harder work/anything -they made him sit and circle what picture began with the letter T, count the dots and circle the correct number and he turned into a nightmare behavior problem because after a week of that he started to refuse to do the work. The exact same thing is going to happen all over again. I shared that what we wanted was for our son to have access to an appropriate education at his level in a classroom and not be made to sit in a corner by himself doing "harder" worksheets.

I felt like bashing my head on the wall. I asked if there was an assessment they would want us to do to show that he has mastered the material in 2nd grade since they stated they didn't want to take "our word for it" OR the woodcock Johnson achievement test results or the full psychologist report (and she is a school psychologist in a neighboring county)- which is stupid in my opinion....they said no. Then the guidance person told us that we should probably prepare ourselves for multiple meetings and that this was going to be "very rough for everyone since it appears that behavior is going to come into play" and that we will probably need to call in the child study team to help plan out a behavior program for him.....I was SOOOO angry I could bust. Here is this kid who has had ZERO problems all this year with behavior and he has been in many, many homeschool co-op classes, gifted saturday programs, scout meetings...you name it - no behavior issues....but you know when you DON'T give appropriate level work to a young child, they are going to get bored and he is as stubborn as a mule. The counselor told us we needed to teach him to "play the game" and put up with boredom for 9 weeks before they are willing to offer anything to him. WHAT????? How is that giving a child an appropriate education??? How do you explain to a 7 year old that he needs to deal with being bored and to "deal with it"?????

I got upset and told her that I really didn't appreciate that they are automatically beginning to label him a behavior problem when the school we tried this year refused to even see if there was any change in behavior by giving him work on his level...I told her that I could understand if they had taken the opportunity to allow him to work at a harder level and then if he had continued to be a behavior problem that we may have needed to work on a behavior plan...I even shared that the ONLY time he was a happy go lucky kid was when that teacher was out sick for several days and they had in a substitute..the substitute was just gushing over DS telling us how amazing he was and how she had a blast coming up with new things for him to work on and that she had no idea why the school teacher left a warning note about my child and to be prepared for massive behavior issues...she had not a single issue with him the several days she was there because geee....she took the time to plan and allow him to work at a higher level.....but they refused to even attempt any other scenario....when you stick a kid into a no win situation what do they expect????

She kept throwing the fact in my face over and over that the county MUST adhere to the strict student progression plan and there were no exceptions. The gifted teacher kept trying to stick up for me/DS by agreeing 1 million percent with everything that I was sharing and she kept trying to say that this was not going to be a good plan and that we needed to have something in full swing when school began but the guidance person ignored her.

Guidance then went on to share that parents were going to be in for a rude awakening next year in Brevard County because they were going to be working in a bare bones situation - there would be no allowance for switching teachers/classrooms if issues arose, there would be no special programs, there would be no help for many kids that needed it...she said they were expecting parents to be beating the doors down. She said she didn't want to sugar coat things and that my son would need to "suck it up" and "deal with it" and that we needed to get over the fact that "he is not going to get an individualized education and that he was going to have to figure out how to deal with it".

I was just fuming when I left. I am so tired of trying to fight for an education for my child when every other tom, dick and harry are able to walk into a public school with no issues and have their "normal" children have no issues with getting an education. Why does it have to be so hard for gifted parents/families??? Don't they have a right to an education as well? How can they expect a 7 year old boy to sit perfectly still for 5-6 hours a day, day in and day out fo 9 weeks doing activities/lessons he has already mastered and for him to be happy about it?? Arggghhh!

That's exactly why we homeschool. THe only person I know of that got acceleration in our district had to get a lawyer. I was not willing to go that length.

Belle -- I'm so, so sorry you're going through this. It's *exactly* what happened in our multiple meetings about ds-now-8 when he was in K -- he was becoming a behavior problem and the school *refused* to realize that it was because he was sitting in a classroom for 7 hours a day and not learning a thing. They shot down all our research and withheld MAP test information until it was too late.

And at 5 or 6 or 7 or 8yo, what little boy has the maturity to deal with stultifying boredom to prove himself to The Man? Precious few. It's appalling.

I'm fuming *for* you. Can you continue to homeschool? Are there any good private school options? We moved ds to a private GT school and he's a completely different child there. It's a considerable financial strain but completely worth it.

What a nasty business. I'm so sorry.

Thoughts as you move ahead:

--That gifted teacher who was on your side: can you get her on the phone and debrief? Find out what's the stumbling block, and what he'd have to do to "qualify" by their standards, and what she can do to help you.

--You can file a complaint with your state's board of education. If they are discriminating against him because he has a disability covered under an IEP, that is a huge no-no and the state should come down on the school like a ton of bricks for it. Document everything that's happened so far in your complaint, with dates to the extent that you have them.

--Yes, it helps to have DH at meetings. They often do not take mothers seriously, but dads are another story.

--It also dramatically improves the behavior of school and district personnel if you buy a small digital voice recorder and say sweetly at the start of the meeting, "Is it OK if I record this? It's so hard to take notes and participate at the same time." You cannot legally record without their permission, but you can with; and on tape they will at least be more polite to you because you will have the evidence.

--We ended up hiring a professional educational consultant. She comes to meetings with us and also meets with school and district people behind the scenes, so they know what we want and what justification we have before meetings even start. This has been effective for us; she gets things done we cannot do on our own.

I hope you find a way forward.

DeeDee

I would write a follow up letter so this is documented in writing. It's like dealing with an insurance company that won't pay on a legitimate claim. I'm fuming for you too but maintaining a cordial, business communication tone is essential. Uugh!

Oh Belle, I am so sorry you had to deal with this. It is such a classic case and it sounds like this school just doesn't care or get it.

Everyone has good suggestions, and I suspect the folks who are used to dealing with FL know a lot more, but I agree about the documenting. Given what you were told, and you are willing, I would write a letter to the super. of the district, cc:ing the school, school board members, and any relevant state offices. It seems like it really can't go downhill from here, so why not push it as far as you can go (well, a lawyer would be the next step, but not sure you want to go there).

Best of luck, Cat

Thanks guys for just letting me vent...didn't realize how long my post was...I am just so angry - DS7 brought up what we were going to do for next year as far as school goes and we were discussing the options... we told him what our choices could be...

1. the private school that is about an hour drive away that is supposed to be awesome -multi-age classes, individualized lessons, project based learning and a "do-able" tuition...the only down side...they use Everyday Math-not so happy about this since my little guy's love is Math and have read the posts on here about EM comments....and the 2 hours commute each day

2.the newly zoned school that I had the meeting with the "lovely" guidance counselor....which DH and I have ruled out completey after the meeting we had...

3. continue homeschooling.

He said he wanted to visit both schools and then talk about it afterwards. I think he misses being able to be in a "class" (he did a Montessori school for 3 years for preschool)...and our area doesn't offer a lot of co-op classes, we end up traveling to Orlando/Tampa which is tough to do all the time.

There really aren't a lot of choices for private schools in our area- there is one that is supposed to be excellent but when we went to visit last year they told us that they were a little wary of being able to meet the needs of a child who gets speech/OT/and Gifted services..which I appreciate their honesty and their tuition is WAY out of our league...the other is a very strict Catholic school which we feel wouldn't be the best scenario for DS.

I am just SO frustrated to the point that I was considering writing a letter to the new super. for our county and letting him know just how I feel! If we weren't upside down in our house like so many other Floridians, we would sell and move to where ever we could find an appropriate place for him....blah!

Has the formal letter request been completed? I've basically learned that no matter how rude school folks can be at a meeting, that there is no telling when they are going to do a 180 degree turn and act like it was their idea all along. I have certainly been in your shoes, and experienced the pain of being attacked at a school meeting, but I would still reccomend taking this last step if you haven't already. People are funny, and the Gifted Coordinator seems like a total gem.

Wouldn't it be cool to let your son try both settings and see which he prefers? Has school already let out for the year, or can he visit the local school sometime soon?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Gee... and I wonder why these asinine blowhards are scared to death about School Choice. If they had to compete for business, they would FAIL... and deservedly so.

At this point, I would totally blow off any real or perceived pecking order and jump a few levels higher in the system. Her attitude is unacceptable, and while I'm sure that your anger may have colored some of the description, she sounds like a total a$$, pure and simple. You've got to at least consider making a whole lotta noise over this. Nine weeks to "suck it up?" Please. They want your son to sit through mind-numbing content for 25% of the year first? B.S. You do that and then they'll say... "Ooooohhhh... we're too far in the year now... why, there will likely be gaps... he's missed too much of 3rd grade to change now..."

She's the only whiner in this conversation. The districts out of money? Guess what... accelerating a kid is likely the most affordable accommodation.

Yes, I know it's easy to be brave from waaaay over here in CA, but I still say jump in there with both feet, grab some of those pinheads by the collar and tell them what you want. Keep knocking on doors until you get the right person.

Grrrr.

Okay... maybe before you grab collars and call people asinine pinheads, I want you to jump all over DeeDee's suggestion.

Take that gifted teacher out for coffee and pick her brain. I'll bet a dollar that she knows the best next person to contact about this.

Poor Belle, what a horrible, horrible experience for you.

Am I remembering correctly that you are a certified, experienced teacher yourself? If so, I think that one of the many very sad and frustrating things about all of this is that they put so little trust in a qualified teacher's judgment of a student's educational needs (that may speak volumes about the relationship between administration and teachers in that school or district right there); unlike most parents, you would have seen hundreds of children over time, and have had an opportunity to develop a really good sense of where your son fits as a learner relative to a larger group.

No advice, just commiseration--I do so hope that things will look up for you and your dear boy soon.

peace
minnie

Edited to add: of course I don't mean to say that a parent who is not a teacher would not be able to judge these things--of course he or she would; I just think that it's very odd from a school's perspective not to trust the judgment of a teaching professional (not you, not the speech teacher, not the gifted teacher--wow, not a lot of trust happening there with the administrative layer).

Belle - I wouldn't base a decision on Everyday Math. If they are doing it right, it could be fun for your DS since a lot of game play is involved. IT would be easy to supplement that one subject at home if everything else was OK. Are they OK w/ accelerating him in math a few grade levels?

Dazey

Belle, so sorry to hear that the meeting went so poorly. I have to say I heartily agree with several of the previous comments:

1. Follow up with that gifted teacher - they often know the system from the inside and can provide sympathetic contacts at the next level up so you can build your case with insiders at a higher level than the school principal and guidance counselor.

2. I would have that tape recorder at every meeting from this point forward with every single staff member.

3. Even though it sounds like you have decided this school is not the place, please write a letter documenting the discussion and the results of the meeting. In that letter, I still think you should ask for what you think you want - 1 or even 2 grade skip, accelerated classes, independent study, etc. Explain why their objections from the meeting are baseless (no additional cost). Reference the procedural safeguards - you should get a copy at every meeting you go to - attach a copy with your letter with the relevant sections highlighted, along with a copy of the relevant sections of the School Progression Plan.

I suggest this because even if you abandon the idea of public school you may come back to it, next year or the next, or the next. Rather than starting over each year, build your record as formally as possible and it becomes apparent over time to anyone that they school system is uncooperative and not meeting their requirements.

One of my great frustrations has been that the schools I am familiar with don't seem to use any grade-based assessment - no MAP, no other year-end assessment, but they live and breathe that FCAT. At my school they do pre-tests all year long and are still doing post-tests this month! On the other hand, the results are not volunteered and they act like you are butting it when you ask for them. I'd be willing to bet that 90% ( or more) of the parents at my school don't even know about these assessments or how their kids are doing.

In the letter I would include a specific request that they identify what tests or assessments would be acceptable to demonstrate mastery for the various standards needed to determine an appropriate grade placement. Put them on the spot - if what you have isn't good enough, ask them to tell you what is. Then they should give you something to work with or basically admit they don't have any way to assess any students at grade level.

I'm available if you want to PM - I'll be sure to check in this week.

So sorry for you and this awful meeting you had. My heart goes out to you! You already got some good advice and I would definitely talk with the gifted teacher more. Remember that even though this guidance counselor was saying awful things, she is not in charge of the school or the district choices by any means. I would suggest finding out who is in charge of things. For us we wrote a letter and attached testing to the district superintendent of curriculum and had our initial meeting with just him in the and principal. We did encounter people along the way that had many awful things to say, but after they got to know DS and meet him they knew he wouldn't work out in a regular classroom. I wonder if saying something to a principal such as "I know that you don't know him and haven't personally seen him in a classroom yet, but maybe you would be willing to meet him and have him come in to get to know where he may fit best" That may change things. Our school tried DS out in a couple different classrooms. Our district has only ever done one gradeskip before my DS's in their whole history as far as I know of. Meeting him helped things out. However, you are going to want more than just one skip probably (for us we need lots of additional acceleration) so they need to be on board with that as well. And they absolutely have to have some sort of end of year testing to see what kids are supposed to know for the next year. that is ridiculous for them to say that they don't have that sort of testing. They clearly should know standards to move to the next grade. Or they could take state assessments if they have that. My DS5 just took the 3rd grade state math assessments as part of the districts plan to see what level of Math to give him next year.

And the behavior thing is so annoying. Kids act out to tell you that something is wrong. Can you imagine the principal sitting in 5th grade class all day and being engaged and acting appropriately? All research shows that you meet the academic needs and then the behaviors after if they are even still an issue.

So frustrating. Feel free to PM if you have other questions about our advocacy efforts.

Hi Belle,

I'm so sorry; if it makes you feel less bad, I'm fuming with you too, like so many others here.


An idea occurred to me: how do you know that the guidance counselor was saying exactly what the principal told her to say? How do you know she didn't substitute some of her own more radical beliefs for his? She could have assumed that you wouldn't tell him/her what she said.

Just recently, someone told me "I am speaking for Jane." When I told Jane what had been said in her name, she was...not impressed.

I agree with Prissy's suggestion that you quote Florida law at them IN WRITING and ask for a response IN WRITING. Inky's URL looked really helpful, too. Your letter could include one or two quotes from the guidance counselor. Pick good ones that flout Florida law, and then pose politely worded questions asking why the principal instructed the guidance counselor to ignore the law. "Is this your policy? If so, please explain its basis in law, in writing." Include a paragraph explaining that you're only trying to ensure that your son's educational needs are met and that you aren't asking for anything more than the law allows. Make that paragraph a bit syrupy.

Also send a copy of the letter to the school board so that you can't be ignored.

If you've decided for another option, ignore everything I've said. Otherwise, this approach can be extremely effective.

Val

Hang in there Belle!

Wow Prissy, I like the way you think. Will you come with me to my next meeting?



This is my line too. And certain school personnel have suggested to me that I would make a good lawyer. Haha!