Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy VIQ vs PIQ on WPPSI

I'm new here . . . I've seen a few other posts about this, but wanted to mention the specifics. My son (4.5) just took the WPPSI and scored a 131 on the VIQ and a 119 on the PIQ (and hit the ceiling on 2 VIQ subtests). He didn't complete the coding - probably b/c he has a very hard time writing/holding a pencil (the psychol. noted this on the report). How common is this sort of discrepancy? We did the testing to see if he qualified for the local gifted school. I don't really understand what the numbers mean, but my son is reading well (probably a 2nd or 3rd grade level) and began reading spontaneously around 3.5 or sooner. His math is what I find truly phenomenal, and I wonder if the WPPSI was able to capture this. Before his 3rd birthday he was skip-counting by 2s, 5's, 10's and doing simple addition/subtraction including to negative numbers. He now can do some multiplication, and quickly grasped money units and the addition involved there. But, it's been the searching for prime numbers (and figuring out many of the tricks for doing so) that has sort of stunned me. He's pretty good at it - he wanted me to go through the primes up to 100 with him (uh, harder than I could do while driving!). Also, at about 3.5 he told me that a circle "has no sides, but as many sides as there are". He can remember dates and calculate what day of the week his birthday will be on for decades to come (accounting for leap years)- in a linear progression - he hasn't intuited the patterns. The psychologist was a little taken aback when we described our son simultaneously increasing and decreasing a sequence of correlated numbers in his head. Today, the 1st, it will be 80 degrees, tomorrow, the 2nd will be 79 degrees. . . etc. (this seemed simple to us compared to some of the other stuff!) He keeps mental lists of when various library books are due (staggered, with some up for renewal, etc). I actually rely on him to make sure we get the books back on time.

So, I suppose my question is, is it possible that the WPPSI didn't catch this math ability? His verbal ability is very good, but it's been the math that has surprised me. And what to do about educational options. .. . Thanks, sorry for the long post

Wow, josiejo, your son sounds like a remarkable little guy. I'm new at this myself, I'm not the resident expert on the numbers around here.
I think it's commonly accepted that an IQ score can under-represent cognitive ability, but not overstate it in most cases.
Was the psychologist who tested him an expert on gifted children? I'm told that can make a difference. I know our tester was.
So, I guess the answer to your question is that I think it's a possibility.
Hoping others will hop on and clarify this for you!!

Incog

Thanks - The subtest scores I remember now (w/o looking at it) were Information 17, one other one in the VIQ at 17, and one at 12 (Vocab, I think). The PIQ block design was 10, and the others were 13-15 (15 on Matrix, I think) The coding was incomplete (a score of 8 was listed, which he completed in 30 seconds apparently and then refused to do any more), and the other one, symbol was 12 (impeded by poor pencil use).

I think we're going ahead with the application to the local school for gifted kids. The psych. noted that the overall score of 126 shouldn't be interpreted as an accurate assessment, and he recommended our son for the school. Plus there are preschool teachers' evaluations etc (where he has scared them by memorizing all of the teachers' schedules), so I hope it will be enough. When we visited the gifted school I looked at what the most advanced 2nd graders were doing in math, and he could do most of it now and probably all of it if someone showed him two digit addition notation (he hasn't asked, so I haven't shown him - he has, however, asked about scientific notation on the calculator, so we've showed him that). I'm going to make an appointment with the GT coordinator at our local public elementary school, which I really want to be a viable option, but I'm skeptical. We're in a very uneven school district, and our elementary school serves a very broad cross section of kids, and they've had trouble meeting AYP a few times in the last 5 years, so I'm a little afraid they will be really focused on getting the kids who are lagging up to speed, but I'm keeping an open mind. There is also a Waldorf school here and a few other private schools for Kindergarten.

Quick update on search for K options. I talked to the GT coordinator at our public elemen. school and she said that they don't identify kids for the program until the end of 1st grade, so the program doesn't even start until 2nd grade. She suggested I talk to the K teachers and principal for guidance on differentiation in the classroom, but I need some advice on what to ask about when I talk to the teachers. Basically, I need to ask, how will you accomodate a kid in kindergarten who is already reading simple chapter books ("Henry and Mudge" for example, with comprehension, and more advanced books with very good word recognition, but less comprehension) and addition/subtraction (but not perfectly and without knowing how to write it out), as well as some multiplication/division. Plus there's the crazy calendar thing and his fascination with maps/geography (he told me yesterday that "Mommy, you know that more people live in the part of Denmark that is in Europe than in the Greenland part of Denmark")

He's a completely normal 4 yr old when it comes to writing, music, art.

So, although I'm hopeful he'll get into the gifted school, since the K teacher seemed to know what to do with kids like him (though she too was a little taken aback by the math) we need contingency plans. Has anyone had success in a regular Kindergarten class? What do I need to ask about specifically?
Thanks

We had success in K, but there were two factors working in our favor:

1) a really good teacher, who "got" our DS and wanted him to learn and grow. Do not underestimate the power of a caring, unthreatened teacher. She is why I know that DS6 is HG+, because she requested testing. I knew he was GT, but I thought he was MG. She was wonderful!

2) a mostly non-academic K class. I know that sounds odd, but it really helps if what the kids are doing is mostly playing and exploring and FOK stuff, rather than learning letters and numbers (etc.) that they already know. The more academic the curriculum, the harder it is for the teacher to give an HG+ child what s/he needs intellectually.

1st grade was when we hit the wall, and we hit hard because we had a highly academic curriculum and a teacher threatened by DS's intelligence who was unwilling/unable to differentiate the curriculum and who immediately made it all about her. It became clear very fast that DS could not thrive in that classroom.

Look for a mostly play-based, social curriculum and a teacher who is sympathetic to GT kids. Good luck! I hope you find something that works for you!

I agree that K can go very well. We were in a very tratidional half-day K. The teacher was fabulous, flexible and well-respected by her peers in the school. She got DS hooked up on Accelated reader within the first 2 weeks and had him reading level 4 adn 5 books while she worked with the other kids on their letters. I know she would "brag" about DS in the staff room. As a result, other teachers in the school were very excited to have him when it came their turn.

DS and I visited the K classrooms in the spring (this would be a good time)before he started. A teacher that will not let you visit is a huge red flag. I really think that his good K year set the tone for what has been a very successful public school experience.

I'm happy to answer.

He threw his backpack down on the first day of school and exclaimed that he wasn't going back. He's not a child prone to such outbursts.

He began losing recess time for misbehavior. This is a rule-oriented kid whose greatest pride in K was that he had never even gotten the "yellow" warning light, let alone the "red" misbehaving light in the traffic light of behavior. Losing recesses was totally out of character

He was cranky when he got home, acting out, throwing tantrums, etc. He threw more tantrums in a month than he had thrown the whole rest of his life combined--and it wasn't even close! He had always been a sunny, happy kid. Suddenly, he was anything but.

Finally, the work he was being assigned was obviously far below his capabilties and I saw no signs that the teacher was making any effort to differentiate for him. When I tried to *gently* advocate on his behalf in an e-mail, merely asking for more challenging books to be sent home--an adaptation which would require NO additional work on her part--she lashed out at me, taking it personally (as in "You don't seem to have any faith in my abilities!"). An apology from me, complete with a confession of my own insecurities about parenting DS, was met with silence. She didn't respond at all. I felt she was dreadfully unprofessional, and I feared how my son was being treated.

Shortly after that, she began bribing the class to try to get them to behave, as well as taking away recesses from the majority of the class on a far-too-regular basis. She was having trouble controlling the class--which contained at least two other GT kids that I know of, both of whom were also acting out.

That was when we had seen enough, and we pulled DS out.

It wasn't really much of a choice, actually. The only choice was between going to the principal to agitate for a different teacher or pulling him out altogether. We decided it would be so much pain and suffering to get a different teacher, and it probably wouldn't help. None of the 1st grade teachers were that sympathetic to GT kids, and the work level would remain the same regardless of the teacher. It just didn't seem worth it, so we pulled him out instead.

Does that help?

Are you having similar problems? I'm happy to talk.

JosieJo,
I agree with Kriston, and would add that half day programs are better than full day, if you have the option.


Sad to say that they isn't any garentee that the private 'gifted' school will be a match for your DS either, so I'm going to reccomend that you take some preventive action. I strongly suggest that you get a hold of the Singapore Math workbooks, and jump him through to the point were his Math Skills equal his Math concepts. This for two reasons:

1) You want him to get into the habit ASAP that he will always have additional Math work, from Mom, at his readiness level no matter what is going on in the classroom. I want you to 'do as I didn't' and be very structured and disiplined about it.

oooh, ooooh new phrase emerging from brain -
Cleanliness is next to Godliness, so is working at readiness level!

2) You want to communicate clearly to the school that he 'really does understand Math and can be excused from their math class.' Which ever school it is, you're going to want him to be subject accelerated - in or out of the classroom. Since the teachers won't usually understand that a circle is in fact made of an infinite number of sides, you have to communicate his math ability by showing off that he can do the things that they are familiar with. see the posts about hothousing for more of this line of reasoning.

So, cut out the 'shucks folks, we're just like everyone else' (which is what was going on in my house) or whatever else is keeping you from giving him workbooks, and get busy. BTW, this doesn't mean he has to do every example on every page. Buy a few years worth of books so you can find his readiness level, ok?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Yes, half-day is much better than whole day. I forgot about that. That was a 3rd thing we had in the plus column, and it makes a big difference, since it gives the child time and energy to pursue the necessary projects and academic work at home.

Good catch, Grinity!

And you might give him some pre-testing to figure out where he's at. It could save you some $$$. There are free tests online at Singapore Math and Saxon Math, if you're considering using either of their workbooks.

Yup, I think 1st grade is often the eye-opening year with these kids. You're smart to be watching for it. I wasn't, and I wish I had been more on top of things.

Good on ya'!