Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional How can we meet this child's needs?!

I'm new to this forum, and I'm scrambling to read through these fascinating threads. Here's what our family is dealing with:

I have a 12-year-old son who just started in a self-contained GT program this year. He's always struggled with school, but we decided to try the GT program because of all the fantastic and engaging enrichments they use, combined with a great teaching team for 6th grade.

But...he has an auditory processing disorder, along with dysgraphia. He's failing nearly all of his classes.

We recently had him take the WISC IV, which showed a verbal comprehension score of 132 (98 percentile), but a working memory of 61 (1 percentile, I believe). Yikes! The rest of the scores were in the average or above average range.

During his recent IEP meeting, the special ed teacher recommended placing him in a reg-ed language arts class with a resource teacher there so that he can get the help he needs with writing/organizing thoughts, etc.
Fine.

But...

Then, it was suggested he might do better in regular-ed for most of the classes, with GT as a resource, instead of the other way around. It took us FOREVER to get to the GT class, and I like that the brilliant/creative side of him is finally getting some attention. He loves the classes and they definitely teach in a stimulating/engaging way. I know he's learning. The problem comes in when it comes time to actually complete/turn in the work. It's pretty advanced (7th grade math, etc), so it is difficult, but a lot of the problem is that he hates writing, doesn't show his work, doesn't organize it well, doesn't remember to turn it in, etc, etc, etc.

I've given lots of suggestions for accommodations that might help, based on my research, and the teachers are willing to help with what they can, but they're expressing a general frustraion at not knowing how to meet his needs in a GT setting, when there are limited special ed services available during their classtimes (the special ed teacher(s) are already pretty well booked up or overbooked with the regular ed students in the school).

I guess I'm mainly venting, but if anyone has input, I'm all ears.

He is going to have to play by the big boy's rules if he wants to play with the big boys. In real life, and certainly when he gets to AP classes in HS and beyond, he will have to do his work and turn it in, and thus develop good study and work habits. I think the large part of the issue is that he has been able to skate and now he has to actually work hard. He either buckles down now and takes the pain now or it gets much much harder later.

Because he has a memory issue, writing things down and following a procedure is much more critical for him than others. If he writes stuff down, if he phases out, he can then go back and follow his work.

Writing was a huge issue for me when I moved from 7th to 10th and one teacher in particular just rode me like a borrowed mule. It took FOUR months of daily work an hour a day to make her happy.

The other 2-E issues, perhaps others can answer.

First of all, I think it's great that they were willing to try him in Self contained GT. I'd rather see him go to the 6th grade self contained GT or repeat 7th grade GT next year, after doing the best he can to catch up this year, and him 'do what he can' in his current setting, knowing that he has finally found a style of teaching that appeals to him, and that his strengths are finally going to be accomidated.

I would let the teacher grade him anyway they need to, but perhaps not show him the grades, only the comments about what is his next step that he can improve. Sort of like taking classes on a 'pass/fail' basis. He is a truely special needs kid, and you have to look at each part of the school system as a 'how could I use this piece' and peg it together. Think of the G/T classroom as his 'least restrictive' environment.

Now if he stop working becuase he knows that he's taking it pass/fail, then you have to move him back. But I don't think he's going to want to go back if he can help it.

Getting accomidations for the APD is going to be important, and hiring someone may be well worth your time. Working memory has lots of aspects to it - your goal is to find out under what conditions he has most use of it, and to strengthen it.

My WM is 'average' which creates a bottleneck for me. I compensate with my ultrahigh processing speed, my terrific attitude and my musicality. Often when I post here, I look up 'previous posts' and skim what's been said previously. I use my cell phone to keep a running to do list and personal FAQs - you son might be responsible enough for a keyboarded cell phone with these extra functions. The school might be willing for him to use the camera to take pictures of the blackboard when the homework assignment is written on it. I take pictures of posters that I want to remember for later - your son is so lucky to be growing up with all these crutches readily availible!

In high school I was able to get the knack of concentrating very hard, getting into a meditative happy space, and dumping what the teacher was saying from my eyeballs straight into permanent memory.

You son will have different strengths, but with 132 Verbal, he must have some areas quite powerful.

I wouldn't let the school's not being willing/able to provide needed services stop me from getting those services outside of school - either by taking a 'do it yourself' approach or paying someone if you or your insurance company can handle it.

And of course - if you son isn't already keyboarding, get out the big time bribes!!!! It makes such a difference.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

<<<Because he has a memory issue, writing things down and following a procedure is much more critical for him than others. If he writes stuff down, if he phases out, he can then go back and follow his work. >>>

But that's where the dysgraphia comes in. He can't just "jot down notes" like most people. He has to pause to think of the shape of each letter and then draw it. By the time he gets through one word, he's forgotten what he's writing in the first place.

He can copy what's on the board, but it takes him so long that the teacher has come in and started class and is rapidly moving forward, so the information on the board (about homework or whatever) has been abandoned as he tries to keep up with the class work. Then I ask him about homework and he has no clue.

The teachers maintain websites with homework, but they're not always updated right away and sometimes only contain very general information when we want very SPECIFIC information so we can help him break it down and get it done. When we finally do figure it out and struggle through the hours it takes to get it done, he forgets to turn it in and since they don't accept late work, he ends up with a zero. It's a vicious cycle.

There are, of course, various accommodations that can help, but people only have so much time to work with him, and I can only do so much from home to keep things under control.

Ahhh, if only my son were bribeable! My life would be so much easier. But, he doesn't really react to much of anything. We've tried EVERYTHING, and he just doesn't care about his grades or school career. He does like GT, and I told him that he may have to be moved back to regular ed. He reacted strongly to that, but I'm not sure how much of this is within his control.

We're going to try to find outside services, but like most families, we really can't afford high copays and long-term treatments, and we sure can't afford to pay anything out of pocket...no matter how much we might want to.

Here's an e-mail from his GT teacher:

"It seems you have decisions to make if [your son] is to remain here at [School Name]. Those options are limited by the resources we have available.

Although it might be the best for [your son] to get instruction in non-GT classes, it is really up to you. If you choose to have him remain in GT full time, services by a special education teacher are not possible. I am not sure how other middle schools service twice exceptional children, but I feel sure it varies.

OR, if you want him in non-GT Language Arts and Social Studies, he can still come to me for GT math/science and we can continue accommodations. However, by not being serviced by a special education teacher, I am not sure what his IEP will
say....

I don't know who else to ask about this situation."

How is the dysgraphia being addressed? The biggest difference for my DD has been to use a keyboard and type. It improved her grades and overall output immensely. What about tape recording, like we did in college?

I agree you need to be able to do the work but dysgraphia is something that should be addressed in his IEP as well. What does it say now? Is this public school?

Does he go to a public school? I'm not sure they can say he can't have special ed accommodations in a GT class. My ds goes to a GT school, but they have a special ed teacher there part-time. I'm not saying they want or encourage 2e kids to attend - in fact, it has been suggested that my ds should go back to his home school if he needs more accomodations. Legally, however, they have to accomadate him. It's not the resources the school has, it's the needs of the child that determine what he can get. For example, at our neighborhood school (where my other children go), there's a blind child. Before she started to attend, the school never had a visually impaired teacher. Now, a VI teacher comes every day.

The homework solution seems simple to me. The teacher can write your son's assigments down. It's not that big of a deal. (they'll tell you they can't write down every child's homework, but you're not asking for that. You want them to write down one child's homework). If for some reason that won't work or a voice recorder of some type might work. In fact, if your ds has an auditory processing problem, he could probably record his classes.

You might want to talk to a special ed advocate in your area. You can check the white (or maybe it's yellow) pages on wrightslaw.com for one near you.

Cell phone with camera
Also - figure out a system of other kids who you can call their mom's and find out from them what the homework is. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and social skill and help smooth over a lot of bumps.

Grinity

Look, you have tons of issues to deal with here, so make a list and pick one or two to work on for now.

Leave him in the GT classes for now. maybe they will let him repeat the year or maybe by the end of they year he will have a growth spurt. If they will let you, let him. Grades don't count until 9th grade, that's 18 months or more (if you wiggle it right) away - you'll get there!

Grinity

Some kids aren't bribeable, but for starter you have to know your kid inside out and know what is a reinforcer for him. Apparently GT classes are a reinforcer. For now they are giving you the option to keep him in GT and let him get poor grade. Fine - the grades don't count right now.

Keep your eyes open, typing lessons themselves may be a reinforcer.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

ARC was a wonderful advocate for us and it didn't cost us a penny for them to consult ahead and come to the IEP meetings. So please be sure to check your area.

Perhaps something like this would work?
http://www.livescribe.com/

I know a few people on this board have personal experience with it. This coupled with a camera phone or even a webcam recording of the lecture could be amazing IF the teacher is open to accommodations (which they should be legally).

I would first define the problems such as writing down assignments, turning in homework etc. and combat each problem one at a time. You can ask for accommodations such as typing or another students could take their notes during class on "carbon paper" and your child could receive a copy of it. Turning in homework could be worked with teachers such as a folder your child carries to all classes and hands to teacher. None of these would be disruptive to the class and requires a small amount of understanding and co-operation.

Our school uses online progress book where I can check homework assignments and grades every day if needed. It all comes down to teachers wanting to work with you or expecting your child just joining GT classes without any regard to his 2E. I think leaving him in GT classes would be better and working with the school to come up with a workable solution. Each child is unique and the school can't just expect to accommodate one aspect of a 2E child.

I hope it all works out for you!

Jen

I appreciate the great replies and suggestions, thank you!

I'm going to take time to read them again more thoroughly, but for now:

Yes, my son is in public school.

What is ARC? I'll try googling, but I suspect I'll come up with many responses, so I thought I'd ask for a more specific description of what this is.

Also, are there any alternative ideas to a camera phone for the blackboard copying? My son doesn't have a cell phone, and we're reluctant to get him one for many reasons (not the least of which is his penchant for losing expensive items--like musical instruments).

I should explain that my son's special needs are nearly as new to us as his GT qualification is (both of these developments just came around--or I should say were just identified--within the past couple of years), so we're desperately trying to get our bearings and scramble for information so that we can advocate for him. It's really overwhelming, as I'm sure you all know.

It's great to finally have some actual names for the problems he's struggled with from an early age. I have had to push and push and push just to get him tested. Now it feels like we're beating out heads against a brick wall to make sure these test results aren't ignored.

We're trying to look into some alternative/charter schools (I'm driving 2 1/2 hours away tomorrow to check out a new one that serves 2e kids) to see if it's feasible for us to relocate and get him the help he needs, but for now, we have to figure out what can be done in his current public school setting.

I think your advice of leaving him in the GT program and taking things one step at a time is great. We'll see what we can accomplish with accommodations and start looking into some helpful technology for him.

Please tell me more about ARC.

ARC http://www.thearc.org/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=1386

In our area ARC has a student advocate that is available free of charge for consultation. They will be present at IEP meetings and help advocate for your child's needs. I firmly believe this is why we were able to get my DD services and dual enrollment. The parent is still obligated to do a lot of research and really understand the law and what they want, but it was helpful to have someone there that I could turn to and let speak for me at times. (My DD has speech services, sees a social worker, and has accomodations for her dysgraphia.)

Thank you all so much! We're looking into all of this valuable information!

I might add that ARC deals with LD's. They will not work solely on GT things. They will work for accomodations for a child to be taught at their appropriate level with accomodations for LD's, which is what it sounds like the OP needs.

My verbally gifted 11 year old son has dysgraphia and a sensory processing disorder. I think my son might have similar problems if he were in public school.

When my son types, he rarely makes spelling, punctuation or grammatical errors and he uses a much higher level vocabulary. In order to write legibly, he has to write slowly. He sometimes forgets punctuation. He sometimes writes the first several letters of a word and leaves off the rest in a futile attempt to write fast enough to keep up with his thoughts. When he is finished he realizes he took a long time to do the writing and he is in a hurry to turn it in to me (he is homeschooled) so he doesn't edit it and it looks like the work of a younger child with occasional letters reversed and punctuation ommited and some words not capitalized. When he types, it is a different story. Typing is automatic for him where writing never was. When he types his work, it looks more like the work of an older student, but he does sometimes have a little trouble organizing his thoughts, especially if he is having a bad day. Assistive technology (like the Livescribe Smartpen that someone else already mentioned) allows him to take notes and learn at the higher rate he has the right and a need to learn at. My husband was so impressed with the pen that he showed it to his coworkers and the IT guy is going to order it for everyone in the office. None of these people have a writing disability. It just makes things easier. It will help them take better notes at meetings. I don't see anything wrong with a sensitive gifted kid using it to compensate for a disability when it allows him to feel a little less different.

I know there are people who would say my child just needs to keep practicing writing until he can write as well as anyone else. He doesn't look like he has a disability, he doesn't talk like he has a disability, yet he has a very real disability. He does still practice writing but not to the point where he doesn't have time to learn what he wants to learn.

In math, I sometimes let him use a calculator but I have him do enough math problems without it that he can do multi-digit division and multiplication without using one. I don't think it is reasonable to expect my son to do as much writing in math as everyone else when it takes him twice as long and he has fatigue issues. He can finish his work in a reasonable amount of time by allowing a calculator for some things, using mental math part of the time, and writing only what he absolutely has to and he uses Life of Fred books that he enjoys. My son is learning to compensate for his disability. At the moment he does math in bed because that is the only place, other than in the shower, that he doesn't have to wear a scoliosis brace that distracts him and makes it harder for him to concentrate. We do what we have to do for him to continue learning no matter what anyone else thinks of it. Learning is the most important thing now. It is important for his mental health and self esteem. He is happy that he is still on track to start the Life of Fred algebra book in March even though he had to deal with a lot of physical pain the last several weeks.

I really struggled with letting him use assistive technology until I remembered someone I knew with cerebral palsy, a very bright person by the way, that used a motorized scooter. She could walk a little, but the scooter allowed her to keep up with everyone else. Should she have been made instead to walk with a walker and keep trying to walk better or just accept the fact that she had a disability and do what she needed to do to make her life easier and more productive and not worry about what everyone else thought? That is the way I have to look at it.

Hi, I have three sons all of whom struggle with handwriting. My husband and his brother also struggled in the same way, and were sent for OT when they were children. Their handwriting is still terrible, and it still takes them longer to hand write anything (of course it did not prevent them from earning PhDs at Yale and Stanford respectively). I wish I had an easy solution for you on the handwriting concern. However, I can tell you my two older sons are teens now, and the handwriting is no longer a real issue in school, for the most part. (Sometimes there are concerns when there is a written essay section on a timed test, and that is the only time it is a problem). I don't know if that is helpful. One thing I would like to say though (and I hope it does not make you angry): please do some research on the sensory processing disorder diagnosis. This is very, very trendy as a label, but is not well supported scientifically. My oldest had some genuine and severe disabilities (including autism) and we wasted much time with the sensory processing diagnosis and sensory therapies, before learning they have not been shown to be helpful in PROPERLY structured, scientific studies. Now youngest ds has been identified as having this (at school) and we resist going down that path since we saw it was not helpful for oldest brother. These therapies are a business and there are big financial interests. Nobody says the kids don't "look" like there is something like that going on, but when one applies the identified and purported treatments for this supposed diagnosis, it gets you nowhere. I am not aware of any medical doctors or even any other licensed professionals who are legally able to diagnose a child and who will give this label. Was your child given this "diagnosis" by an OT? Buyer beware.

I should add youngest ds is 8 and we are REALLY struggling with the handwriting issue now. The biggest problem is the schools seem to invest it with such importance. Ds is very bright (gifted seems to be a dirty word where I live), but his handwriting makes him look slightly impaired. In NYC having any kind of label of a "problem" appears to bar one from entering schools where there are opportunities for greater challenge. This ds is doing EPGY math and scored very highly on JHU CTY (so will travel with me to LA for the summer and will do CTY day camp). I feel like I have to get ds through this tough time in school when the kids are judged by handwriting and such rather than reasoning and other higher level academic ability. I am not in a position to home school right now, but for all practical purposes we are home schooling, just fitting it into evening hours! If anyone out there DOES have a suggestion for improving handwriting, I would love to know what it is. Alternatively, how about a suggestion for getting lower school teachers to see that in the broad scheme of things, handwriting is not really terribly important, and certainly a child should not be judged based on his fine motor ability!

(THis is in reply to the original question, whereas my posts above are in reply to a response. Sorry, I am just learning the ropes here, so I am not sure I am posting correctly.)
I don't know if this will be any help at all, but I will throw it out there -- my oldest son was born with autism (totally different situation from your child, obviously). But we started an intensive program LATE by most people's standards (we first wasted three years in programs that had been recommended by the local physicians, psychologists, .... which turned out to be locally popular but not helpful for kids on the autism spectrum). So when ds was 5 I took time out from my own career (completing a PhD) and worked intensively with psychologists who had trained at UCLA in applied behavior analysis. Autistic kids are VERY uneven in their abilities (even more than what you described in your child). My ds had some areas of great strength and other areas in which he functioned like a 8 month old. We actually constructed a program from scratch for my ds and "plugged the holes" with an amazing degree of success. My guess is your child, who does NOT have anything like what mine did, still could do exercises which may well bring his working memory up to the normal range. None of these mental abilities are set in concrete, not for a 12 year old, and truly not at any age. My mom started developing dementia about 6 years ago, and we have done a great job providing her with exercises to address areas of weakness as we see them presenting in her. She has done very, very well. I am not saying we can succeed with my mom forever with that (against progression of vascular based dementia), but if I had a chance to work with your gifted young son, I would love to try to pinpoint exactly what kinds of tasks are especially difficult (in terms of working memory), and then create games which incrementally challenge him to improve those exact skills. I am not a psychologist, just another mom, and I of course cannot guarantee it would work, but who knows? As for the handwriting, we are still struggling with that (times 3, all three of my sons have a significant problem with it). If anyone has any suggestions on THAT, I am all ears!

In response to a previous post inquiring about SPD and doctors diagnosing it: My doctor suggested it as a diagnosis for Bear after I had already researched it on my own and came to that tentative conclusion. She offered it up as a possibility BEFORE I mentioned that I had been researching it. She is also very cautious about diagnosis and medicating, prefering a wait and see approach.

In addition EVERY psychologist I have talked to accepts it as a real diagnosis. The issue is that is is not recognized in the "official" book as a stand alone disorder yet, although that might change with the newest edition. Basically what I have found is that it is "officially" accepted as part of a package deal with say autism or Downs or speech delay or etc and so on, but not yet accepted as a stand alone diagnosis for treatment by our early start program or school district. In fact our school district is going to try to find a speech issue to file Bear under just because they will be allowed to treat the SPD then. They are very aware it is a real issue.

Immediately after we started the OT that was suggested (not even officially by an OT, but by both the doctor and a psych as a place to start) we have seen significant improvement. In fact every doctor and psych I've talked with recognizes it and all of them have given me the same advice and ideas to start working on.

Basically it is a real issue, can be and is diagnosed by doctors and psychologists and, just like everything else out there, it can be misdiagnosed.

This sounds intriguing. I've been doing some research, and a speech language pathologist at the hospital where I work has suggested several websites that she uses with her patients to help with memory issues. I certainly can't see that it would hurt, even if it doesn't help!