Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments Learning needs of those in different IQ ranges...

I get that the typical school system caters to the 80-120 IQ range. And could possibly cater to up to the 130 IQ range...

What, in your experience, would be the difference between IQ 130, versus IQ 145, versus IQ 160?

(Of course, there is also the difference between the auditory-sequencial learners and the visual learners. And there is also LD.)

So, if possible to keep it simple, just the regular gifted kids ... how much differentiation would be needed and how different would the teaching be to cater to those in the 130, 145, or 160 ranges?



I suppose I'm asking too about how/what would a school do to differentiate, if they could?

What about gifted schools? How do they manage the different levels of giftedness?

I completely agree. There are WAAAAAY too many factors to break it down to "Kids with this IQ need this adaptation."

I think IQ is one factor, and it can be very important. But it is only one factor among many, and just how important a factor it is varies from child to child.

And to add to the complication, no classroom or teacher is the same as any other. What would be standard practice in one place is high-level differentiation in another. Too much variation to generalize!

No answers here either, I'm afraid.

I suppose I'm asking too about how/what would a school do to differentiate, if they could?

What about gifted schools? How do they manage the different levels of giftedness?

Last year I attended a free lecture by a psychologist sponsored by UCI. Here is what is in his slides:

Those with IQ's between 115 and 130 or so may need additional accommodations /differentiation in order to stay challenged and engaged in learning.

Examples:
�Within Class Cluster Grouping/Ability Grouping
�Introduction of different levels of depth & complexity within content area/whole group instruction
�See Teaching Gifted Kids in the Regular Classroom �Winebrenner and Espeland
�Some opportunity for Independent Study/Project based instruction/cooperative groups
�Some opportunity for self directed learning (eg: choice within literature circles)
�Outside enrichment in areas of need/interest

Those with IQ's between 130 and 138/145 or so usually need �or benefit from -special programming and/or more intense differentiation/accommodation in order to stay challenged and engage.

Examples (in addition to or in place of previous):
�Between class/grade cluster grouping/ability grouping
�Multi age/combo classes
�Frequent use of higher levels of depth and complexity within content area/whole group instruction
�see Teaching Gifted Kids in the Regular Classroom
�More opportunity for Independent Study/Project based instruction/cooperative groups
�Replacement curriculum
�More opportunity for self directed learning (eg: choice within literature circles)
�Outside enrichment in areas of need/interest
�Outside GATE programming / distance learning to explore areas of interest and access higher level curriculum as needed (eg: Stanford EPGY; John Hopkins CTY)
�Summer Programming (eg: UCI GSA; SIG)

Those with IQ's of 145 (less than one out of 1000) or above almost always need �or benefit from -special programming and/or more intense differentiation /accommodation in order to stay challenged and engaged in learning. These kids
may be good candidates for more unusual or �radical� strategies.

Examples (in addition to or in place of previous):
�More than one year grade skip
�see accelerationinstitute.org/Nation_Deceivedfor research
�Other forms of acceleration �AP classes in high school
�Dual enrollment
�Davidson Young Scholars
�Special Schools (Public Magnet or Private)
�Home Schooling with participation in outside gifted ed programming (eg: Stanford EPGY; John Hopkins CTY; Davidson YS)
�Online Charter School Enrollment (eg: CAVA) with participation in outside gifted ed programming (eg: Stanford EPGY; John Hopkins CTY; Davidson YS)
�Early entrance (eg: CSLA EEP)

I hope this helps you, because I had the same question a year ago and his lecture had help me to understand ds's need.

I'll just agree with the others here . I don't think that one can universally say that all kids with IQs in the 145 range need something different or more than kids in the 130 range. There are a lot of other factors in play as well.

We have one probably HG kid who tested at the upper end of MG when she was younger. Many kids in her IQ range (somewhere in the 130s presumably) might do just fine in a GT pull out class or with AP classes. She has done well with starting school as one of the youngest, skipping a grade, and being in advanced classes. It may just be a combo of motivation, unusual direction, and other things in her instance that caused her to need or want more than the typical MG/HG kid or maybe her IQ is higher than we know.

I want to pick this up, not to pick on you G3 but because it's often suggested as a thing schools could do, but seems to me counterproductive (after about the first couple of years, at least). Why? Because it means you can't have those subjects being taught by subject-specialists, and I think that's *crucial*, at least for maths which is what I know most about.

Many primary/elementary school teachers are very uncomfortable with maths beyond the basics. (I don't know how it is in the US, but IIRR, here they have to have at least a grade C at the qualification normally taken by 16yos, and as part of their training they have to pass a "numeracy" test, but they can take it as many times as they need to, and many do need to retake. For comparison, that C is in the same qualification where Arran Fernandez, aged 5, got a grade D a few years back - and TBH it's clear that the reason more kids don't do this is the need to be able to sit 1.5-2hr exams, not the need to absorb the concepts. One could argue about exactly what a grade C at GCSE shows, but I certainly contend that you do not want your HG+ mathematically inclined child taught maths by someone who has only that level of mastery of maths.)

It seems to me that it's really important to have children taught by people with a deep understanding of and love for the subject in question, as soon as possible. DS's school moves to all specialist teaching by age 8, I think. But obviously, that means they can't timetable all the maths lessons together, because there aren't enough maths specialists.

Why isn't this point obvious to everyone who suggests this solution? Is it that people don't agree that teaching by subject specialists is important, that it doesn't happen in US schools, that there's something I'm missing...?

I think the break down of IQ and educational reccomendations are only a starting point. There are so many factors to consider. But this information is so valuable becuase it is so hard to explain to a school your 140 IQ child can do so much more than a 115 child if given the chance.

If a child has a IQ score of 140. and the GAI is 146. What does this mean? I do understand the processing speed is dropped out.

Much of what I read about gifted refers to 145IQ as score to make particular reccomendations. I would like to show these references to the school as starting point. But how do I address the 5 points.

I would also say to them these are to get us started, it's not about the numbers it's about appropriate education.

This Testing thing has been a bit confusing. It seem all so important to have kids tested. But after the test...what does it do for the child. I think it is just suppose to get the schools attention but then they really don't get it.

Have you applied to DYS for him? Maybe they can do the explaining for you & it might hold more weight coming from someone other than the parent, unfortunately. We've had terribly obtuse GT coordinators at times & wonderful ones at others. The less helpful or less knowledgable ones seemed to be more interested in hearing from people other than me such as school GT teachers, psychs, etc.

When dd#1 was being evaluated to skip a grade (at the school's recommendation), the GT coordinator for the district looked over the breakdown of her IQ scores and stated that dd wasn't really gifted b/c she was really only gifted in one area (the one part of the PRI index where she got a 19+/99.9 percentile). Apparently, all of the subtests other than PSI being in the upper 90s, the total score being at the 98th, and the various other 98th and 99th percentile scores w/in subtests didn't register as gifted with her.

[quote=ColinsMum]
I want to pick this up, not to pick on you G3 but because it's often suggested as a thing schools could do, but seems to me counterproductive (after about the first couple of years, at least). Why? Because it means you can't have those subjects being taught by subject-specialists, and I think that's *crucial*, at least for maths which is what I know most about. [/quote=ColinsMum]

Actually, depending on the size of the school, you could easily do this and use specific subject credentialed teachers instead- creating a better depth of knowledge and comfort level. It would take some chunking of the schedule and you'd need to be very careful in screening teachers. But it could be done!

For example, I hold a single subject credential in Social Studies, Spanish and Russian. So I can teach any of those subjects but I can't teach an elementary "self-contained" class. I have friends that have dual credentials in Biology and Math, Chemistry and Math, Language Arts/English and Social Studies etc. In fact, just due to economic reasons, most of the teachers I know hold more than one teaching authorization.

The difference is you have to remove the framework that requires you to hire teachers with a multiple subject "self-contained" credential.

CAMom, maybe I'm misunderstanding your point or maybe schools where you are are very different from schools where I am. Where I am, in primary schools, almost all teachers teach almost all periods - teachers do not have significant amounts of time during the school day when they are not teaching. To remove this constraint would make schools more expensive, because they'd have to appoint more teachers. So however you juggle children and classes and teachers, if you teach maths to all the children in the school at the same time, then almost all of the teachers employed by the school have to be teaching maths at that time. So the only way teachers having multiple specialisms helps is if almost *every* teacher has a maths specialism (possibly along with some others). That is inconceivable in the UK, at least as a general policy that could be applied in all schools: most teachers do not have the level of maths confidence or competence that would let them have such a thing.

I have to agree that it varies so much by child as far as their educational needs go.

For example - ds9 tests at the 98.6% and totally shut down in the regular classroom. Even with a few pull outs he was crazy bored. Now in a GT classroom (most kids average IQ around 130) he still excels and probably could go a bit deeper in most areas.

On the other hand, dd7 was grade skipped and in full time GT classroom. She has DYS scores but haven't applied yet. She still could care less about most academics and behind most of her classmates. She probably could have done just fine in a regular classroom at least at this point in her school career. I don't think she would have minded the easy work.

We have friends with a very PG son and he's in a regular classroom at a low achieving school. Subject accelerated but he wants to stay with age mates and deals with the regular work just fine.

So it just depeneds.

By the way, our local elem. does the ability grouping so that the math oriented teachers teach the highly able students and they switch classes several times a day even as early as 3rd grade. It does seem pretty easy to do.

What I've seen in schools that work this way is that the least 'math-understanding' teachers teach at the very lowest levels, and the kids who 'drink math' skip right over those classrooms.

Hiring teachers who know lots about their favorite subjects will help.

Having kids be able to be graded against multiple rubics is something I would love to see much more of. That way a kid who is too tiny to write clearly, but needs to be in High School level classes can take them for as many years as nescessary. Like reading a good book over when you have more life experience!

Smiles,
Grinity

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying on a IQ testing report they give a range?

I work in a middle school and have been in a high school before in the US. This is how all the teacher periods are structured and students have 6-8 teachers in a day, depending on how the school is structured. If we used this model more in our elementary schools, you wouldn't have to hire more teachers, you'd simply have to have the students rotate classes more often. For example:

You have 5 groups of 20 students. You would have 6 teachers. At any given time, all 5 teachers are teaching their subject matter. Then they swap around. It works best if you have an area or two that do not necessarily need to be leveled- like PE or technology. It does take some work to make the scheduling come together but it's completely possible. We do it every year with 3 grades of students who need 6 different levels of math and 5 levels of Language Arts. It's not always a perfect fit but it's far better than saying "You're in 2nd grade, so you get 2nd grade math. End of discussion."

I have no range data on any of the IQ or achievement testing that any of my children have been given. Am I missing data?

Yes there is more specialization in anyone with a single authorization. I'm in California so I can't speak for every state but we do it like most other states. I am authorized to teach social studies in any K-12 classroom or adult vocational class. But I'm not authorized to teach "elementary" school because I do not have that authorization. As long as I wasn't in a situation where I had to teach math, like in a class with the same students all day, there is no reason I couldn't teach a bunch of different social studies classes.

To get an authorization, you need to either have a bachelor's degree in your subject, a master's degree or pass an extensive examination PLUS take your 5th year teaching certification.

However, to teach elementary school, in most cases you need a "liberal studies" degree or an education degree and that's it. Some programs wrap in the 5th year certification into the liberal studies degree, some don't. This is why you find elementary teachers that can't teach math very well. They don't have upper level math classes themselves, in most cases- they only have a class in "how to teach elementary school math." I haven't had math since high school. My teaching credential included a class called "Computers for the Educator" which was my math class.....

We digress, sorry!

I'm trying to collect information that says DS needs appropriate education and be able to speak about it. Dottie- I'm not sure I asked my question the right way before. so I'll try again.

Here is an example from Genuis Denied:
A score of 145 occurs in the population roughly once in on thousand.

Here is an example that would state he is different enough from most students but he misses by 5 points. So does the school conclude he is not in the category? If he had 5 points more he would really need help then? I know this sound silly but I want to be able to approach them with facts not almost. So can I not use this?

example from Genuis Denied:
The problem becomes most acute in what we call "highly gifted students, which in education parlance meant IQs of at least 145 ....

Once again this would be a wonderful quote but he missed by 5 points.

So can I use the quotes to get their attention and validate the need or is it no good because it's only close?

I keep seeing this 145 IQ number in many valuable references.

I'm not seeing the 140 in references. If they are not relating to it well enough now then I think a reference could be so helpful.

Thank you for your patience. That is very helpful.

In the principal's mindset, DS is being grouped with all the other gifted kids. Principal said, it's ok if it's easy for him. I would say school is beyond easy. It's insulting. I'm just trying to find ways they can understand he needs more and can do more. If I could present something factual that may help.

Going back to the scheduling of classes at the same time. You could do that for maybe 3 classes: math, LA, and either social studies or science. EVen within the same grade level, you could work out so that the most advanced in math go to the teacher that has a passion for math and/or is more qualified in math, then the same for the others. Kids rotate between these 3 teachers. For this to work, you might need to do a couple of grades at a time.

I know of a couple of gifted schools that deal with kids in the 130+ range, by sending kids to specialists starting around 4th grade; essentially the kids go from class to class, like middle schoolers. This allows for them to be taught by a specialist in the subject matter, which they require at that age. There is differentiation inside each section as needed. Teachers are trained to individualized curriculum to a certain degree(which would work for many in the 130-145 range). It might be hard for some of those teachers to provide materials/teaching to those who are too far ahead; some would find it doable and others would not.

I want to reiterate what gratified is saying. Schools, for the most part, are not interested in IQ numbers. I suspect that your efforts to get accomodations for your child will fall on deaf ears so long as you focus on IQ.

What schools care about (when they do care) is what your child knows. But even here, testing on the school's own curriculum (using their end of year tests) will be far more persuasive than simply showing scores from an achievement test like the WJ-III or the WIAT (or even a talent search test like the EXPLORE). If I were in your situation, I would ask to look at the curricula for the classes in question, and ask if your DS can take a test to show whether or not he has mastered the material.

I'm not looking for perfect accomidations. I just think he should be learning more and studying. If they could get 2 or 3 subjects close to right for him he could hang in there for the rest. He is really enjoying some friendship this year and his school basket ball team.

Ex. Study guides for Science and Social Studies. He know these the first day. Most of the infomation he knows before he reads the book. The teacher provides the paragraph to 2 questions on the test, they are graded on spelling and puncutation. I do see the point of the kids learning what is an appropriate anwser. He says he would like to give the anwser. (insulted again)

So if the scores are close to the other gifted kids in everything but Math they will probally do nothing else. This make me think, if we want his needs met in more than the Math we need to move to another school.

Except, if the explore test produces results then maybe they will do something with this.

He is so amazing because of how quickly he can read, learn, understand and retain so much that I don't even get. It feels like this school is not measuring up except socially. Should I be thinking the other gifted kids are in same situation except in Math?

The school said they have several kids with this IQ. I said how do they know? She said we give kids the X test. I forget the name. I never recieved a report with IQ before his IQ testing.

The library has the state Math tests, practice tests. If he went thru these, would that help the school understand his Math or should I have him do some Math program, like EPGY at home and bring in the reports.

His grumpiness is worse in general these days. He says the other kids don't like school. He doesn't like what he is reading but doesn't want to put any effort into new books. It's like school is holding him back so he will too. He has never had a problem entertaining himself due to self made projects. He is frequently talking "boring" and is less interested in trying new things.

I will drop the IQ argument with school. I am understanding better.

The GT and regular teacher said she doesn't think testing out works there is more to this then the results a pencil and paper can show.

The math instruction is very slow and repeative. He is doing condensed 3 & 4th Grade math this year. He is finally working on Multipliction which is good - He is learning. He feels like he is not being challenged in the math and it's so little new information. I wanted them to test him out of units to do something else - mindware Math books, he loves. This seems like a better use of his time. It feels like the school is holding back his progress. I don't mind if they slow the pace thru the grades if they give him condense and give appropriate enriched activites. He says Math and Math enrichment are to easy. They are open to him bringing in an enrichment class but he will still need to do the regular work. I think they need to free him up from somethingto allow time for more.

I don't think I'm going to be able to get him in somewhere new for next year. I'm still unsure the changes available offer enough challenge to make the change.

One school that offers differentiation has 4th Grade teachers who don't enbrace it. This place could work if we were set on moving him up a grade. The teacher showed me another book for enrichment that was just another format of the regular Math. I was looking for logic and reasoning or something more. In other grades, their style of differentiation means everyone in one class gets the same lecture, then break into different work. I'm not sure if that is on target for what we want.

DH is not wanting him to change schools and start over. Public school culture is of concern. I think if we can tweak a bit more he can hang in there a little longer. I will also provide out of school activities like chess.

I am learning thru the school searching process but still somewhat confused.

There are 2 more private schools to check out, he could go there and then continue there thru Highschool. I'm hearing the older grades at our school are worse so if he can make a change in junior high and then stay in that school that sounds good. This might also give him more time to make more concrete friendships and gain social confidence. Less changes might be better to hold out for.

The tuition is a big issue. Finacial aid and scholarships may help but I'm not overly hopeful.

I am not going to let finacial issues stop me from looking beyond my means at this point. I'm not working right now. If I can just figure out a path for my kids to be ok. Then I can work parttime. If I could get them into a school that would be good for afterschool, I could work full time. Current school aftercare is a bad situation, very unruly and boring. I have been out of work for 9 years and with today's economy I don't feel very hopeful for making much money. I wish I would have retained some of my work now.

Developmentally, does it make much difference when a child changes their school, during 5th thru 8th Grade? I thinking the teen years may be challenging. Is it better to make the move sooner or later with this in mind?

onthegomom

Are you still considering the small private school or are you looking at other options in case more young students do not attend next year?

At this point, every thing is still up for consideration, but I don't think we will get a placement in a new school for September. It's getting late for that and I'm just not sure that the options are what I'm ready to move him for. Social is going amazingly well this year. Current school is still some what open to some adjustments. DH is not want to make a move. I think if it has to get really bad for DH to want a move. DH doesn't really understand how bad it is for him.

It seems like any of the moves would improve the quality of the education but nothing feels just right. There are 2 very expensive school, I can't afford, on my to do list. I could move him and keep him there thru High School. I like the idea of less moves for him socially. I talk with DYS for the first time this week so hopefully they will promote some progress.

If you are out of work and not sure that you will be going back soon due to the economy and other factors, have you considered homeschooling him? At the least, you'd be better off financially due to not having the pay the tuition of a private school.

I, too, have felt like dd#2's school has been a hinderance to her learning math and, worse yet, it has really damaged her self image regarding her mathematical abilities. We are getting a bit back on a better track this year with some afterschooling with EPGY math and a better fit of a teacher, but I don't hold out high hopes of them teaching her much in math to be honest. If they can at least refrain from doing any more damage, I'll be happy. We're aiming to get through the rest of this year and next and then I would really like to fully homeschool her for middle school (6th-8th). I work part-time, though, so having her home full-time is a challenge until we can figure out a way to get around losing my salary or find a more flexible job arrangement. In the meantime I've been gathering a bunch of resources so I have them in place when I can hopefully get to more complete hsing!

I do think, like pps have mentioned, schools are more interested in current achievement than potential. Thus, the IQ argument not getting you far in terms of different accommodations for your ds. Perhaps if you can at least supplement at home if you have the time, his achievement will give them reason to take you more seriously. Good luck with the Explore results. I hope that those have some impact as well.

DS does Saxon math and I found a homeschool placement test for Saxon. The Saxon test states it is for students new to Saxon. I also found a state Achievement test.

If I were to give both of these tests for Math, do you think this would be helpful for dealing with school. I don't think the school will give me end of year tests. They may not even have end of year tests. They said testing would not be enough because there is more to learning then what can be shown on pencil and paper???

I get the feeling that you are looking for the perfect test score that you will be able to show to your DS's school and have them instantly recognize the needs that you see. I would be tempted to try the opposite approach. Instead of looking for more tests to convince them of your position, why not ask the school what they would need to see. For example, if you think your DS should be placed in 6th grade math, then ask them what they would need to see from your DS in order to put him in that class. If they tell you that it's simply not possible (for whatever reason) then at least you will know their position and can stop putting so much effort into something that will not achieve your goal and can turn your attention to some other strategy for addressing those needs.

NJMom - thank you, you are absolutely correct.

I think part of the problem is I'm having trouble getting to ask questions and then when I do I don't always get an anwser, we circle around.

I think that conversations with school personnel are often like you describe. But what I've suggested is a very direct question. They may not give you an answer right away, but it's a very straightforward question. Either it's possible to place him the accelerated class or it's not. And if it is, then the question is very simple--what evidence do they need to see before they will place him in that class.

It's worth a try. If you have a meeting coming up, I would save it for then. And you can put your request in writing with a follow-up letter that summarizes the results of the meeting.

What has your Davidson family consultant suggested?

I talk to FC for the first time on Thursday. As you can see I need somebody to get me on the right path. Do you think I should do anything to prep for that 1st conversation?

Maybe, I'll just present the following possible goals/obsticals and see what FC says.

Get School to understand DS's needs and consequences for not meeting those needs. The principal says it's ok if school is easy for him, which is discouraging. I did find some hope in that she said she was willing to learn something new. Principal also seem to appreciate the value of more in depth school work.

I was thinking I want the school to try something more this year. I would think with all A grades he has some margins for trial and error. A short trial (last 2 months of school) might make it less scarey to do something to challenge him next year. I also think it's harder to try something new when he is just starting the new year.

I would like him to test out of his daily Math pages and do more of mindware Math Enrichment I provided. More Possible ideas: move him up for Math Enrichment, pull him out to learn an instrument or spanish, accellorate in reading or science. Overall, condense, test out, or subject accellorate to find a way to challenge him more without adding more work load. I just want him to work hard on something and learn something because it all too easy.

I believe that, in talking with your family consultant, you can brainstorm and don't necessarily need to "come" as prepared as you would for a meeting with the school. I'd present the ideas you suggested above and then bounce thoughts off one another until you come up with a game plan for how to approach the school. Having the FC conference in on a meeting with the school would be nice, too, once you know what it is you are asking of the school.

Yes, the job of the FC is to help you in any way that they are able to. So you can set the agenda. Whatever questions you have or concerns you're wrestling with, just put them on your list.

You don't have to do it all at once either. If you are in a crisis, they'll put you at the top of the list and help you as much or as often as you need.