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How many of your DCs are doing EPGY in a public school during the school day? If you are, how did you pitch it to the school? My DS6 is in Kindergarten and we just started EPGY at the beginning for math. He thinks school is boring although he gets pull outs for reading and math. We are hoping to bring this up next week, after he works through all of K this weekend. Just started last night and are already halfway. He likes it although it is easy. Another suggestion I have seen is working on EPGY worksheets/homework during math class. Does EPGY have worksheets for 1st grade? If so, where would I find them?

My DS5 is in K and we just do EPGY at home. He goes to 1/2 day K so there isn't that much time in his day to be able to do it there (and I'm not sure they'd let him anyways). In fact he still has to do his K homework even though they know he is doing 2nd/3rd grade math at home. (He's into 3rd grade in EPGY - he started at K lvl mid Oct)

I'd love to hear if anyone has been successful with using it at school. Even though I think his only option would be during computer lab time (1/week) it might be better than nothing.

I'd like to hear about EPGY being used at school too. I'm interested in DS9 doing the computer at home and then doing paper work at school. Any experience with sharing EPGY assessments with school so they know it is going well. Does your child test out of units to do this?

We have had moderate success at public school. It has been a process and will continue to be a process over time. DS7 attended the public school in K (1/2 day) when he was 5, the K teacher noticed his math level and arranged with a 2nd grade teacher to have him go to her room for additional math, at home we used Singapore workbooks for fun. We did meet with the principal and later the district to speak about future accommodations. Nothing was decided but the school and the district became aware of the issue�s. In 1st he attended a Private HG school; they moved him to Rm 2 for math which is somewhat like 3rd grade level. This sort of worked (He processing speed was to slow to move on to higher level). We had him tested him with the WJ III achievement test, his math score was very high. Because of distance issues we came back to the public school for 2nd grade. We approached the school in June of last year with his IQ and achievement test, a letter from his current teacher, and examples of some of his work. We asked for an overall grade skip, and that he be moved to 4th or 5th grade for math, or allow him to use EPGY in the classroom (At that point we had not started the courses). The school agreed to the skip, and would see what they could do with the math. We started the EPGY about one month before school, and DS7 liked it. The school moved him to 4th grade math, but this has created a scheduling problem, 3rd and 4th do not do math at the same time. DS7s teacher has agreed to allow him to do EPGY instead of 3rd grade math during 3rd Grade math time. The problem has been that he has to catch up on what he missed when he is in the 4th grade class, during his 3rd grade (EPGY) math time. So overall the school has agreed, but they use it to augment what they go over, and they still give him some 3rd grade worksheets. Also his overall time completing EPGY since September has been less then a quarter of what he did in three weeks at home during the summer. I will be arranging another meeting to see if he can just do EPGY and only test out of 3rd and 4th grade math. He recently completed the SCAT test and scored well on math, hopefully this will work. It has not been a great fit, but is much better the keeping him in 2nd doing 2nd grade math. I have also started a math club at school for 4th and 5th graders doing the math Olympiad program. This has been very challenging for DS7, the other students, and me. The good thing is that the school sees my effort, and hopefully they will work with us on these future changes.

does Sigapore Math go beyond the usual basic Math with things like logic and reason. Is Sigapore Math a everday cirriculium or enrichment? Do you show this work to the school? Is the SCAT test could to show Math placement and holes in Math? If a parent wants to start a Math Club does it usually take a Math Professional? Or a teaching certificate? Was this difficult to get the school to you teaching a Math club?

We used the basic work books from Signapour math. They do offer more then just the mechanics of math, they have logic and reasoning. DS7 liked the workbooks. In California Signapour is offered as an everyday cirriculium, however our public school does not use it. Each district is different on what they decide to use. We did bring the workbook with us during our first meeting. The Achievment test along with the IQ test seemed to help the most. The SCAT test is to short to show holes, it is just another test results, that can be added to the overall picture. The math club (Math Olympiad) does not require ay profesional teaching degree or certfication. Our public school also did not require anything in the way of certification or credentials. (This was good because I don't have any, no degrees, and I am only OK at math, I am a Realtor not a Math wiz) The program comes with worksheets, answers and how to arrive at them. The Math Olympiad program does ask that a teacher help proctor the 5 contests (One a month). The school was very receptive, it did take some time to start but has gone well. I will hopefully run it again next year and will make some changes. It is a learning experance for me also. The Math Olympiad is dificult (In my opinon). The 5 problems given each month for the contest have a range of dificulty. The school is a K-5 with arround 600 children. The contest is for 4-6 grade. I started with about 50+ students (Next time I will limit it to 15-20 with some sort of test). I am now at around 20, of which maybe 10 are doing ok. No one has answered all 5 contest questions correct. Most can only answer 1 question, a few can answer 2, and only about 3 can answer 3. (DS7 is one of them). I do not teach math, I try to teach problem solving. I also try to keep it fun with mental math tricks. In regards to the school, I just asked and pushed a little and they agreed, its been kind of like learning to swim by jumping in the deep end of the pool.

Our DS8 has been using EPGY in the classroom as a full replacement for math since Dec. (He started the year using ALEKS.)

The school agreed to his using ALEKS when he passed the 4th Grade year-end assessment right after school started. He used ALEKS for 5th, passed the school's test and then started EPGY for 6th because we all felt it would better prepare him for the EPGY pre-algebra.

One problem I have with EPGY is that it is not possible for the child to bail on a topic if he gets stuck. This has resulted in several says of yucky scores for EPGY, as our son can't always expect the teacher to drop everything & come help.

In ALEKS, the student can exit out of a topic and choose something else. Then, after school, we could cover whatever topic(s) he skipped. This worked PERFECTLY.

So while I am very pleased with the caliber of EPGY, I really, really wish they had a similar feature.

As for the ultimate approval from the school, it was actually OK'd at the district level a few years ago and is on their official list of approved curriculum. That was nice... no waiting! (Maybe check with your district's curriculum office?)

We did have some arm-wrestling with the previous teacher about generating homework & quizzes, which was fine under ALEKS. With EPGY, though, there is no quiz function so we ultimately got him a pass on that. For homework, I just produced worksheets based on whatever topic required additional practice. EPGY provided its own homework, but it didn't focus on the problem areas -- just a bunch of busy work.

He'll be done with EPGY 6th grade in a few more weeks or so, and I am very curious to see how he does on the EPGY final exam AND the school's own 6th grade year-end stuff. I have a 6th grade math book from the school, so will be able to cover anything that he doesn't hit in EPGY.

Dandy,
Have you tried the "give up" option?

Yes. But the "give up" only exits that particular question, counts it as wrong, and then follows with another problem in the same topic. If he "gives up" enough times, EPGY will revisit an earlier concept for review and then land back in the same troublesome topic, generally with the same exercises.

The repeating of exact problems is frustrating as well (for me), because he'll eventually "know" the correct answers from memory -- supplied by EPGY after each error -- without really understanding the solution. In contrast, ALEKS generates its questions on-the-fly, almost never repeating an exact problem.)

With ALEKS, he can leave a topic and isn't forced into it until he needs it to advance to a higher level topic in the same category... and by then he's been able to discuss the concept with either the teacher or me.

When he's working on EPGY @ home, I'm available for any questions and can provide additional explanation where Grandpa EPGY falls short (or due to technical issues, stops prematurely). I understand that the dynamics of the classroom don't permit a similar availability from the teacher, but it is still frustrating.

So far, I have very few complaints about EPGY... and these in particular wouldn't be so bad had we not experienced ALEKS in advance.

This is interesting information. We are still trying to decide if we should switch dd to EPGY next year instead of an accelerated version of school cirruculm that she is receiving now. Everything I have heard about EPGY has been so positive its nice to hear that there are some hiccups too.

DD loves Aleks, but we only did it for a 2 weeks. I didn't feel like it was hard enough, or deep enough. Maybe I didn't place her high enough.

EPGY is definitely more challenging for our son than ALEKS in the "6th Grade" level. I wish the folks at Stanford & UC Irvine (EPGY & ALEKS) could get together a develop a hybrid product.

I don't have much to offer here but I'll tell you my experience so far.

My son is in K just started getting pulled out for math and reading. Math is at the same time as recess so he has to miss half of his recess which he isn't happen about. Not only that but they forget to bring him to math a lot.

We've been doing EPGY at home for a little while so I suggested to the school that he be allowed to do that in his K class while they're doing math instead of going to 1st grade. I also explained that he's well into the 2nd grade material on there so 1st grade math is probably still not what he needs. Yesterday I was told that they probably won;t allow this because nobody would be able to sit there and watch him do the EPGY and if he did it all of the other kids would want to do it too (rolling eyes). I told the principal that he does it alone at home fine and doesn't need direction but she didn't seem to listen to that.

So right now he's not allowed to do it at school but I'm still fighting the fight on it. If I get anywhere I'll let you know

My DS5 is in K. A few months ago his teacher asked me to look up some math websites that might challenge him. I found EPGY through this list. We signed him up and the first words out of her mouth were, "can he do this in class?" I didn't even have to ask. After showing her how it works she immediately identified at least one other student who could benefit and asked if I could form a group. It didn't seem to even occur to her to "ask permission" for this type of instruction from any administrators as she has total control of her classroom.

How she works it into class is pretty simple. She has set times twice a day where the kids do "centers". Sometimes literacy centers and sometime math centers. There are many "centers" throughout the room that involve games, books, stories, math problems, you name it. Each center can be made easy or hard depending on the level of the children. Some of the centers use the computer stations, so my son does one session on EPGY during centers time. If time runs out he can just end the session and he can participate in the other centers if he wants. It's brilliant. I have to say she is the best teacher for my child and I think she is really smart herself.

As an aside, I live in Washington, DC and we have one of the worst school systems in the country and we are at the public school. Our school does draw from a highly educated population, but it just goes to show it depends so much on the teacher.

Also, we are paying for EPGY ourselves.

One thing my DS's teacher said to me was, I think he could focus and sit still more throughout the day if he was challenged more at least some of the time. (wow!) Perhaps you could convince a teacher to try it if she thought your child would be more compliant the rest of the day. Just a thought.

Feeling lucky,
Eleanor 05

We do something similar to EPGY (at least the online classroom bit), and we speak to schools directly and tell them about the benefits of signing their kids up to our program. Many schools that are under-funded (nearly all state schools in the UK are) find that our program is exceptionally good value for money, is not limited to a specific time, offers world-class tuition for independent thinkers, and actually gives the schools something to shout about.

If anyone wants advice on getting schools to see the benefits of these programs, get in contact with me - I'll very happy to offer any advice I can

That would be nice... I love EPGY, but I do think a few things need updating.

Hi Dandy,

Just saw the thread. If you don't mind me asking, how does the school assign DS's math grade for his official report cards?

We are in the very early stage of talking with the school for possible math acceleration ("above-grade" classroom vs. online learning), pending on what is "allowed" in the district. One of the concerns from the school was how will the student be graded if taking the course online? Do you take the average of daily percentile, use the end of the grade exam score, or throw a dart to determine the grade?

Thanks!
Mag

Dandy - how high up does ALEKS go? DS5 is using a computer program for his school now called "learning today" and it is really moving at the slowest pace ever. He gets so frustrated with the repetition and not being able to skip the repeated examples, etc. It still hasn't taught him anything in the math department to my knowledge. His school is in the process of assessing him for Math and all year have been giving him some random assignments that are between 4th-8th grade math material. So they are talking about what to do for next year. I have given them my opinions but not sure what they are doing as I have been told repeatedly that they are looking into "web based opportunities" and "telocommunication options." I am thinking (hopefully) that they may pick ALEKS due to financial aspects. They are also allowing him to use the singapore math workbooks in school that I bought him and the primary challenge math book. I am just wondering what they did with your DS for homework. One of the problems that we have now is that the teacher says that she does not have access to what DS is doing on the computer program so she does not give him the same kind of homework. She does give him advanced work, but just random assignments. It would be nice if homework built on what was being learned through EPGY or ALEKS. Does your school do this? How does it work?

In case it is helpful to anyone, I wanted to say that my DS8 (2nd grade) has been using aleks to replace math at school for about 2 weeks. So far it is working really well. At first I think it was a bit of a distraction for the other kids (curious about what he was doing), but that has settled down now and I guess the other kids just mostly ignore it. He started on 6th grade, but finished it in the first week. He is now doing pre-algebra and is about 75% finished.

As far as how they will determine grades for him, I believe they will still grade him on mastery of grade level stuff, but I have been forwarding the weekly reports that aleks sends me - shows how much time he spent working, what topics he mastered, etc. Seems this could be used for a grade if they wanted to.

We could also print homework from this, but the teacher said they were fine if I just signed that he did 1/2 hour of work online in the evening to replace math assignments (he would normally have math worksheets 2x/week). 1/2 hour is more than he would spend on the easy stuff they would send home, but he enjoys aleks and wants to spend more than 1/2 hour anyway and really hated the normal busy work.

My main concern was whether he should be doing something more challenging than aleks since he is moving through so quickly. I asked our family consultant (from DYS) about this. She said if he is happy with it and it is working well for school and home, I shouldn't worry about it for now. So, I am going with that opinion at this point. When he finishes this class, he should be ready for algebra. I believe aleks goes all the way up through many high school level classes.

Wow, this post got me looking to see what EPGY is, as someone had mentioned it as a possibility for DS7 next year instead of ALEKS, and it appears that EPGY is rather expensive! I can see why the school would be leaning toward ALEKS instead, although I don't know that they have heard of EPGY.

I hope we do ok with ALEKS next time!

EPGY is expensive on its own, but it's not badly priced through Open Enrollment.

It was much easier with ALEKS, especially as that teacher was adamant about having regular scores from quizzes & homework to plug into his grading software. I manually generated quizzes based on recent topics and homework based on any trouble spots. I couldn't produce the equivalent of chapter tests, so his only test scores came from the end-of-year tests from (and based on) the school's curriculum.

With EPGY, I still manually prepare his homework based on problem areas, but have no feature in EPGY for generating quizzes like ALEKS (which is a very cool feature!). I report his percentage correct on in-class work at the middle and end of the quarter and his teacher averages that with his homework grades. At the end of the course (which is rapidly approaching), EPGY has a 70+ problem "final" that he must take, and then he will also take the end-of-year test from the school's curriculum, just as he did with ALEKS.

They have an extensive catalog that goes up to college level and ventures well beyond math:
http://www.aleks.com/about_aleks/course_products

As mentioned in the previous post, I produce the homework packet daily based on the work completed in class. In ALEKS this was really easy -- I just created a "custom quiz" and included the problem types (and qty of each) he needed to practice, printed it out (along with the answer key) and -*poof*- homework was ready.

Producing homework for EPGY is a bit more convoluted. Because EPGY has no "create-a-quiz" feature, I simply took screen-caps of any missed problems from the day's session and pasted them into a word-processor. For the times he has needed additional practice, I've resorted to creating problems from scratch and/or finding web-based worksheet generators. The problem generators were especially useful during his extended battle with the 3-digit-long-division-beast-from-hell.

Here's a great discussion regarding EPGY & ALEKS:
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/62015/1.html

I started out looking for help in choosing between ALEKS & EPGY and the conversation really took off in a few different directions.

Overall, I'm satisfied with the switch to EPGY, as it has proven to be much more demanding... but I really, really, REALLY wish EPGY & ALEKS could join forces.

I'm going to look at Thinkwell over spring break because the sample lectures were excellent -- I just need to see how the rest of the program works.

And... when our son is ready, Art of Problem Solving (AoPS) will be another consideration:
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com

Question about the EPGY open enrollment for those of you who are in it (since I think any of you will know, I thought I'd ask here rather than pestering melmichigan by PM): which maths courses are available in it? Initially it was said to be just K-6 but I think more were added later, only there are now so many hundreds of posts about this that it's hard to find! I've seen mention of a Beginning Algebra course I think, but did I read something about this being a slower-paced version than their tutored course (M011)? Looking at http://epgy.stanford.edu/courses/math/index.html I don't think DS would stand for MOWC (5-6) even given that EPGY is said to be harder than ALEKS - he's finished ALEKS 6 and we wouldn't have "space" for EPGY until he's finished ALEKS Chemistry [or as much as he does, don't really ?want to? believe he's going to finish this] and Descartes' Cove, both of which he's in the middle of at the moment and both of which are reinforcing a lot of that material and more. But I do think it might be time to try something different from ALEKS, so I thought maybe M0WD (7th) or M011 depending how he gets on with Chemistry and the rest of DC. But I'm worried about the repetition thing, and definitely don't want to put him in at too low a level, that won't work; he doesn't have the emotional maturity just to speed through stuff that's too easy to get to the good stuff.

Also, is there a significant date approaching e.g. the beginning of a new school year?

oops, sorry I missed that before. Thanks for the information. It sounds like a perfect match for DS5 at this point. What do you all do for reading or LA? DS5 is several years ahead in that as well. Right now they use a computer program for that too...which may be okay to continue.

Actually ALEKS is more expensive for a year compared to the EPGY Open Enrollment program. If you are talking the Individual Program then yes, EPGY is more hands down.

(Sorry, my computer has been down so I haven't been on the board to reply. )

Wow, this thread has taken off. I am really interested in how you guys have handled issues where your DS or DD has had trouble with a particular subjet. My son whipped through K and the first half of 1st, but is really having a hard time with double digit addition. He just doesn't get the ones and tens column concept. What should we do? Any resources you would suggest?

Stop for a while and play with money: dimes and pennies.

How about poker chips? Whites = 1, Blues = 10 and Reds = 100. You can stack them up and play games trading equal numbers.

I'm inferring that it's the concept of the columns and not just keeping them straight on paper. Otherwise, graph paper helps immensely, or you can turn notebook paper sideways. My kids understood the concepts far before they could keep their columns straight without some kind of ruled line to help.

*Asked a question here, but discovered better place for it in other thread, so I deleted this one*