Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums GT Research Asynchronous Development

I really didn't understand what it meant when some of you referred to your kids as asynchronous so I decided to look it up. I came across this reference and was wondering how true it is?

http://giftedkids.about.com/od/glossary/g/asynchronous.htm

When it comes to intellectual, physical and emotional development did you notice a significant delay in the physical and emotional side as they suggested in the article? Im just curious how accurate this idea is that the higher the IQ the more out of sync the other developments are.

Well sure, although I would caution you that emotional maturity is not something that one can measure. Lots of things that look immature to others are actually excellent adaptaions to a difficult learning situation, or some other problem that MG or ND kids wouldn't have to face. Many will say that emotional maturity tends to be advanced in gifted children, but perhaps not as advanced as the intellectual stuff.

Organizational skills can be a typical area where some gifted boys are 'behind.'

Grin

DD never had a problem with emotional maturity. She was and still is far more mature than her actual age. Physically she started walking early (9.5mos) but was very clumsy and uncoordinated for a long time. She also was delayed somewhat in her fine motor skills but that may have had more to do with boredom than anything else. She wouldn't color until she was 5 (hated it), her penmanship was very poor up until this year, and she was never good with scissors. I will say that her intellectual development was considerably more advanced in comparison to her physical development but the emotional development was never delayed.

Oh yes, DD is a good example of AD (not ADD).

For example, she understands that everybody will die, including herself.
She knows that Santa is not real.

She has just started to make real drawings, not just the typical 'scrambles'.
She gets a tamtrum if DS (16 months) tries to get her Lego construction.

Socially speaking, I am not certain if she is either socially inmature or a social genius because she really has learn to 'act' or mimic other kid's behaviors.

Hi ladies.

My son walked independently at 9.75 months and climbed stairs and ran by 11 months, so I would not characterize him as physically delayed by any measure. Although his writing and math problems are really large and a bit messy also.

His asynchronous development, which was most obvious from age five to nine, presented because he was so intellectually advanced as compared to age and held mature social expectations that his classmates did not meet. Additionally, he is very emotionally intense. His feelings were easily hurt before he accepted common boy world behaviors and he didn�t hide it. With age, he is more willing to participate in boy world teasing and has become more a part of the group although he would only categorize one or two school buddies as good friends.

This article illustrates best what I mean when I refer to the fact that DS was very asynchronous as a young boy.

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10172.aspx

Did I ever tell you about the time DS got in big trouble for being upset, and causing a fuss, because the other little 5 year old boys in aftercare wanted to play "snake" with a plugged in electric cord, and the teacher thought that my DS was acting really, really immature for not just letting them be. She figured that he was probably feeling a bit left out for not being included in the game.

And I wonder why he's such a cynic at age 11. ((shiver))

Frowity, not Grinity right this minute

This is exactly the sort of situation I always think of when I think of asynchronous development. The world-at-large sees most clearly the kids who are emotionally intense, which means the child seems to be (or perhaps even is) behind age level in the emotional front.

But I think the more common issue is that an HG+ child seems like such a little adult intellectually, but then s/he gets hungry or tired and throws an age-appropriate tantrum, and the adults around can't understand what happened to the little adult. The contrast is so glaring that the tantrum seems much less age-appropriate than it is.

Child #1 in our family--the HG+ one--tends to be emotionally advanced, well-behaved, rule-oriented, and highly logical. At maybe 8 months old, he was figuring out EXACTLY what the house rules were by testing the boundaries and looking to me for a "no" so he could understand precisely what it was that I was saying "no" to. Can I roll the car on the wall with my right hand? How about my left hand? Can I bang the car on the wall? How about rolling it on the floor? When he got a nod and "yes" from me instead of a "no," he never did the "no" things again. I could almost see the wheels turning! It was one of the moments that told me for sure he was a GT kid.

Now, Child #2 is a drama queen, an emotional mirror and every other emotional intensity you could dream up. At age 3, however, he's pretty much right on target for his age, I think.

Interesting conversation!

This is absolutely true! I have found that adults that know dd7 expect so much more out of her and when she acts 7 they look at her cross-eyed.

We get the same looks when my 5 year old actually acts 5 on those rare occasion usually involving fighting with his 3 year old sister.

We're all so asynchronous at my house that I often forget gifted people can be otherwise. My kids are PG with AS, PG with ADD, PG with ADHD, and probably PG probably ADHD again. We have lots of sensory issues as well, which tends to compound the situation.

Sensory overload at a crowded birthday party used to make my oldest melt down, and the fact that he was socially a few years behind the other kids already just made it that much more difficult. Expectations for gifted kids tend to be that they behave as a child of their mental ability, but that doesn't work out with an aspie kid. So he'd be eight acting five, and then the sensory stuff would pull his behavior down to age three. Never mind that he was able to read and do intellectual tasks many years ahead...

My son just had physical delays--he has always seemed more mature emotionally than kids his age, maybe because he had to learn to deal with being different from a very early age. Several years ago, when he could see that I was so upset about the school refusing to provide an appropriate education and I spent too much time being frustrated with the situation and worrying about how I could change things, he told me that I needed to stop worrying about the way things "should be" and just deal with "what is." I realized then that he had to come to terms with "what is" instead of the way things "should be" at a very early age, especially in Kindergarten when people were telling him he "should be" able to do things like coloring in the lines and cutting and drawing because he was obviously intelligent since he could already read and do math grade levels ahead of age mates before starting Kindergarten. He had already learned some difficult life lessons. He has always been able to talk about it, so emotional maturity always seemed advanced.

He knows that he is academically advanced but he does not show off his intelligence, even around kids who have teased him about not being as strong or as fast or athletic like they are.

He did not seem too upset when an adult was guilty of "verbal bullying" toward him. He told me he understood that she had "issues" and he was able to let it go.

I think doctors thought my son's delays might just be asynchronous development and this is why my son was never really given a dignosis. It was as if they were blind to his mild physical delays and only noticed the advanced vocabulary and they seemed to enjoy talking to him. In my sons medical records they wrote things like "seems to be high IQ" but not much about any physical problems. The developmental pediatrician's report from a few years ago only mentions proprioceptive and vestibular issues and she recommended having him do activities from the Out-of-Sync-Child Has Fun. So I thought he was just asynchronous.

So here we are at age nine and other kids notice that he is not as physically able to do things as they are and he is talking about quitting scouts--the only activity he is involved in with age mates. People whose children have sensory integration issues and are receiving therapy for it notice him. People whose children have hypotonia and are receiving therapy notice him. But because he was so bright and able to compensate for some of his differences, he was not referred for OT or PT for his differences. I guess they thought he was just asynchronous. Asynchronous with all of the overexcitabilities, smart and funny and quirky.

People have a really hard time believing that my very articulate nine year old who is able to talk intelligently about the latest happenings in the news and loves to share his opinions about the things he hears, is able to memorize scripts and songs faster than much older gifted kids in his musical theater class, and who seems so obviously gifted, could have a physical problem that would cause him to not be able to learn a complex series of dance steps as fast as younger kids. They tell him he is not trying when he is trying very hard and he continues to try very hard because he does eventually get it--usually at the last possible second.

Oh Lori!
It sounds like your son has a wonderful character! I do so hate looking back at the years when my son was getting the message that he 'wasn't trying.' I'm glad your son knows better!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Asynchronous Development to me is more a case of not knowing which "age" child (physical agge is 8 1/2) I'm going to be interacting with at times. Is it the child that just finished reading an advanced article on global warming and wants to discuss alternative to whatever creates greenhouse gasses? Is it the child that cannot sit still through dinner because there is a really cool meteor shower starting soon and he "needs" to be ready? Is it the child that can only talk about the evolution of pokemon and which one he wants to catch next? Is it the child that is throwing himself on the floor in a temper tantrum because he tore the picture he was drawing?
Each of these aspects of my son require a very different interaction from me. Even more intersting is that in the course of a conversation or activity these aspects can overlap and comingle.

Oh yes!

Last night, during an evening sledding with friends, DS11 crashed into a car at full speed, earning a sore arm and a bump on the noggin.

All his various ages needed my attention. He wanted to know all the facts, and what could have happened. Later in bed, the fears that he had injured his brain resurfaced, and he asked for more information about brain injuries.

After letting him go on and on a while, I said. If I were a regular mom, I would just say, "OK, stop thinking about it, it could have been bad, but you did not do any damage. The only thing at risk of hurting you now, is you worrying about what could have happened. I don't like anyone hurting you, including you, so stop it."

He said: Why don't you say that?
I took this to mean that although he was asking questions on the older, intellectual level, that he wanted some good old age appropriate babying.

So I said, "Then I will. Nothing bad happend, you are fine, stop thinking about it."

He rolled over and went to was quiet. Soon he was asleep. What would I pay for a microphone that would pick up his thoughts. My fear is that he would keep on worrying, but just go quiet about it. My hope is that I spoke to the boy at the age he needed to be at that moment.

I'm grateful for getting this particular thread at this time, and to Delbows link, for reminding me that he does need many different interactions from me - depending on his age at the moment.

Smiles,
Grinity

I was thinking about the term "Asynchronous" today, and how there was an earlier discussion somewhere on this board regarding the use of the term "gifted". I remember someone wasn't really fond of describing people as "gifted" (kcab, I believe?). I agreed with whoever it was at the time, but I didn't have time to post the couple days that discussion was happening! Amazing - I actually found the thread.

*** Link no longer working ***

Anyway - I've grown much more comfortable with the terminology since doing research and reading on this topic and rejecting the gifted denial somewhat. But I could really see how throwing the term "gifted" around too heavily in front of a parents of ND children who could set them off. Before I knew DS was gifted, an aquaintence of mine used to talk about her gifted children in such an annoying tone that reeked of superiority. She definitely threw it around like a status symbol. Anyway, I definitely avoid that terminology in general conversation.

Anyway, thinking aloud on the computer here, I was wondering if it would make the world and legislators more comfortable using the term "Asynchronously developing" to describe children. It could also used to describe LD children accurately I think. Maybe we could be funded the same on both ends of the spectrum. Ahhh ... it's fun to dream.

Dottie, the other mother's reaction was awful! But it's a reaction I see lots of times at my kids school. I guess maybe the other mother felt somewhat superior when she thought your DS had problems and then to find out he was very gifted took away that superior feel. Or maybe she felt you needed her sympathy on the one hand and then to find out he was gifted meant you didn't need her sympathy?? (to give her the benefit of the doubt - LOL!). Last year in my DS's K class a child was being tested for the GT program and another mother got wind of it and threw a fit because "if one is getting tested then they should test them all!!!" In fact the parents act much worse about it all than the children. The kids just take it matter of factly that some of the kids are in the GT program, but it can really bring out the claws in the parents. I guess they feel their child is being put down if he/she isn't recognized as gifted. It's interesting isn't it that athleticism can be so celebrated out in the open but intelligence cannot.

I can relate to this statement. Its interesting that if your child has any learning disabilities that you can discuss it openly with anyone but if your child is GT you don't have the same liberty to talk about it without fear of some form of judgment. I think that is why I feel at home here. I can talk about my daughter and the fact that she IS gifted. Every single parent here can relate to finally having that freedom, I'm sure.

I hesitate to find an alternative phrase to describe my dd because I don't think there's any shame in the term gifted. I think any other term would eventually end up having the same connotations as "gifted" does anyway.

I just happy to have found a community like this. If only the real world had the same reaction to our kiddos!

Ditto to both paragraphs!

The term "gifted" is a specific, educational term with a specific meaning. To be blunt, I wish the rest of the world would just get over it.

...But they won't, of course. Not any time soon. And so here we are. For the record, I usually say, "He's a bright kid" or something like that instead of using the word gifted. It seems to get the point across in a less annoying/threatening manner. At least the responses I get seem to be more positive and/or supportive

BTW, now that we're home schooling, lots of people ask me why we made the move. So whereas before I almost never told anyone that DS6 was gifted, now it seems like I'm talking about it a lot! (Though I always try to say the bare minimum about it to avoid sounding like I'm bragging or trying to "convert" people to home schooling. I want to do neither!)

On the bright side, people seem to realize that if you pull your kid out of school for "emergency" home schooling, he probably really is gifted. At least that seems to be the way the responses tend, by a wide margin.

I agree that learning disabilities are still considered a big deal and it is often challenging to get the schools to appreciate the child's needs. It is hardly taken in stride.

I have known plenty of kids who were profound "in the other direction" as Dottie said. There really is no comparison to what we go through with our kids. Certainly, they can bring joy to their families and I feel blessed to have know them and families who care for them. But keep in mind that many profoundly delayed chilren require multiple surgeries and hospitalizations, 24 hour care, and may never speak or walk, and certainly will never live independently. So, yeah, I totally understand why someone who was familiar with a profoundly delayed child wouldn't think we deserved much sympathy! I certainly am grateful for everything we've been "gifted" with.

You know, a lot of a child's 'special learning needs' depends on personality as well. So I exploit this in conversation quite a bit. In my "Hi We're New" speech, I talk some about DSll "needing to cary big rocks" as a personality quality. I try to throw in an appreciative comment about "I just love how some kids create challenge for themselves - I wish there was more of that in my child's personality - but you have to take them as they are" ((Frown, Head shake and shoulder shrug)) This, followed by a quick subject change to their child's experience or if have had any similar experiences keeps me in a comfort zone. Not that this approach has resulted in me being inundated with invites for coffee or anything - yet - but I hope I'm not irritating people, and that I'm creating a tiny bit of acceptance out in the ND world. I try to create the tone of 'This is the only way, it is hard in some ways, but our family is brave and realizes that all parents do the best they can, us included.'

Once your child has an accomidation, most people realize that they don't want their child in that situation, and that your kid must need it, cause they will get reports from their kid that your kid is 'smart.'

Pull Out Programs are different - they are seen as 'perks.' Plus the kid is still gifted '24/7' - although I think pull out programs can be very useful for gifted kids, they are just harder to 'sell.'

I haven't seen much by way of claws, but that could be in part that my son is tall, and loud, and has lots of externalizing behavior - so Parents notice right off the bat that there is a 'tiger in my tank.' In the begining the hardest thing for me socially was the opposite, when the other kid's parents would say: "Is DS going to be a lawyer when he grows up?"

Those kinds of comments floored me. Now I just say, "Are you ok?" And yes, I do get a certian pride from having him be "like that."

You are getting there Dottie, you just need a few diffent 'elevator speechs' for the various situations that come up. Practice, Practice, Practice!

I don't know where we got the idea that every social interaction is supposed to be generated fresh on the spot - I think about it more like the 'other guy' mufflers on the old Midas compercial - they have a few basic models and then take the attitude of "We'll MAKE it fit!"


Smiles,
Grinity

I have the same sort of problem with our situation, Dottie. People wonder why DS6--who looks 8--is with me during the day, or they ask him where he goes to school...and we haven't done a very good job of coming up with an "elevator speech" to explain the situation. Obviously we say "homeschooling," but I haven't come up with anything succinct for the questions that follow.

Good advice, Grinity! I'll work on it, too!

Dottie - I wish I knew the answer! I really struggle with this. So many people come up to me and ask how 1st grade is going and I stammer every time because I don't know where to take it. 40% of the kids at our school are tagged GT and I haven't found a parent there I talk about this openly with. I volunteer in the classroom once a week and DS really is "out there". Which at the beginning of the year, I had no idea where we were at.

There is not much enrichment at our school, but a parent of a girl in my son's class has volunteered to lead a jr. great books group with kid's reading at or above 2nd grade level. So there are 5 kids that do this every 2 weeks in his class. This little group is kept very quiet. As well as the "challenge math group" the teacher operates. And even the challenge 3rd grade spelling words. You'll never hear about them unless they come home with your child. I'm sure there are parents in the classroom who will never know about any of this. She sends home a newsletter every week full of the stuff done by the main curriculum. Obviously, by design. Interesting.

Anyway - I too am also very grateful for the existence of this board! I also wish the world would get over it. But since I'm still so new to this world, I still feel like I'm getting over it!

FWIW, I don't share info with anyone except two other mom's who have HG/PG children and this board.
We live in a community where people move here specifically for the gifted programs.
People are extremely competitive about how smart their child is.
Many people think their child is the smartest child they have ever seen.
If they meet a child that challeges that idea............well, let me just say I've had a few parents approach me and want their child to be friends with DD7. After spending a little time around her, they slowly back away.
She is a lovely child, sweet, no behavior problems. She just spooks people sometimes.
My two BFF's with pg kids go to different schools within the district, so it's nice.
I'm just not competitive, sometimes I wish DD's were not so different KWIM?
I don't talk to other parents about what the girls are doing because I find it counterproductive in terms of the girls socializing.
If you've never been to Kenya, you couldn't describe the terrain or subtleties of the local culture, right?
Just last week my BFF mom at school started asking me pointed questions about a highly secret ability grouping going on for six in the grade.
Then she started asking me to name kids.
I lied and told her I didn't know anything about it.
After she left, I felt like I'll never have a friend around here.

Oh well,
Incog

My problem is on the other end of the spectrum. My DD acts so "normal" that I had to convince my DD's father that she is indeed EG.

Even after he had the IQ results he still insisted that Sarah was "certainly bright but not gifted". We ended up in court (DD's father and I are divorced) where a judge had to rule that DD was "Extremely gifted" and declared my DD "A special needs child" under some sort of California Family Code. My Ex felt that DD being in a school for the gifted was "elitist". A court had to tell him that it was not a choice to be attending that school, that it was a need. He doesn't get her at all, specially when she has her "normal" age appropriate tantrums!!

On the other hand, my DD can go unnoticed in social situations. She does tend to make friends on the older side but because she is very tall for her age (99% in height) it is not obvious that she is younger. When she is with her friends, she loves to talk about Hannah Montana and High School Musical just like any other girls her age. She does favor boys rather than girls as close friends (she likes sports).

I love people like you!!! You are a true system buster, gifted people around the world thank you!!!

I wish my parents had stood up to for me the way you did for your daughter.

You are a mom rock star.

Incog

Incog - the people at my kid's school are extremely competitive too. I just don't play that game either. At least you have 2 good friend's with kids in similar situations so you do have someone to talk to. But I'm sure it is hard not being in the same boat as most of the other parents at school and feeling like you can't discuss it with anyone.

Dottie - I am the "average MG parent" too and sometimes the talk on this board amazes me and makes me question whether I really belong here or not. But I do enjoy talking with people who have some of the same experiences as I do.

bianc - wow! Good for you standing up for your child! You are amazing!

EandCmom: I am not amazing, I am just lucky to have an amazing child, but thanks.

Incogneato: As Dr. Laura would say "we have two chances in life, one as a child and one as a parent". You ARE standing up for your child, therefore taking that second opportunity as a parent of a special child.

Thank you, bianc.

eandcmom: You absolutely belong here.

Dottie, thanks, but don't feel too bad. I am convicted in my belief that I should stand up for my child, even at personal cost.
At the end, when I look back, I won't be remembering any of the moms who get weird. You all know what I'll be thinking of cause you all will be having the same happy memories.
I know what I'm doing and I'm happy I'm doing it .

Besides, no one could feel isolated with such awesome I-BFF's!

Incog

That's how our district feels - highly competitive to many parents. Our school has a huge highly involved parent base. The GT magnet that we're trying to get into, a lot of the parents are hyper competitive, even if their kid is performing at grade level and over 1/2 the kids down there are. And that is just so not me. But the teachers and admin down there really "get" GT kids. And they probably get their parents too. It's the hyper competitive ones that give the rest of us a bad name.

My kid is also a kid that totally blends. He occassionally slips into geeky mode and throws out a random dissertation, but generally he blends. He is socially quite happy with school. He has groups of kids working on snow forts and role playing the spiderwick chronicles at recess. If only it were just gym and recess! I'm still trying to work on DH's denial. I wish he could volunteer in the classroom a few times. That really slaps you in the face with it.

Bianc -
I say three cheers for you! I know what it's like to battle a school system of experts, and there were times when my DH's support melted in the heat. That was bad enough. I am so grateful that your Judge was able to see and believe your DD's needs, and you had support for your position with your XH - but still - it can't have been a pretty sight.

So I'm double glad that your DD has a good school that works for her, and your vision. Yippee!

Gifted academics + Good social skills= camoflauged child, yes?

Grinity

Observing in school is ideal, and I do reccomend strongly pushing it. And by strongly, I would say, "Listen, I love you and respect your opinion on most things, but until you have spend at least 3 hours at our child's school observing the daily life, this subject isn't open for discussion."

Alternate - plan a playdate with a few agemates, and get DH's committment to be the chaperone. Suggest that he teach them how to play one of his favorite games, such as chess or monopoly or whatever will give him a chance to get close enough peeks at a normally developing kid to see the beauty of the normal unfolding process. Make sure you are out "grocery shopping" or "getting a facial" during the playdate, and that it goes on 'long enough.' Be sure when you plan the playdate not to invite the two other kids who can somewhat keep up with dear child.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Great ideas, Grinity! Thanks. I've just been kind of letting this sit on the back burner during December. DS's teacher was going to make a couple of changes for him, but they are really so minimal and are not cutting it ! So DH might find himself doing the volunteer shift some week at school soon!

It is funny. DH (who I do love dearly, and is also obviously GT) is driven absolutely crazy by other boys DS's age. He can barely take it! The difference is really obvious. And it certainly isn't like DS is never annoying or squirrely. He is just annoying in a different way!

Welcome to my world!

[quote=gratified3I think I need to start working on my own denial . . . maybe I need to take vacation days to volunteer because I'm still just not getting it.
J [/quote]

Glad to hear it J. Admitting you have a problem is the first step ((humor alert)) Seriously, what else are vacation days for?

I am so cracking up at the idea of you reading yourself the riot act and putting yourself in 'time out' on this topic with DH until you do the first hand research. LOLOLOL!

((dancing happy feet!!)
Grinity

Sound like it's time for a ki(m)ck in the pants, yes?

Grinity-City

How funny! That's exactly how it is at our house. They have conversations like ds is at least a teenager. My dh is GT as well, and they're like peas in a pod, right down to tempermenet. Hilarious.

And I'm beginning to realize that I should go spend a day in kindergarten ... it makes that big of a difference, hunh? I'll have to go check it out.

Hi Grinity,

My daughter is definitely a chameleon. This is exactly why having her in a regular classroom would be dangerous.

Having a court of law make a ruling that my DD was a "special needs child" was a big victory for me. According to my attorney, California law only recognizes a child as "a special needs child" when they are at the other end of the spectrum.

Because of this ruling, my XH was required to help with private school tuition. This solved my specific problem.
However, I think the law should recognize an EG child as a "special needs child" all the time and force the public school system to allocate, at the very least, the same financial resources to the Highly gifted as they do to the children who need remedial services.

The public schools where I live offer the GATE program (2-3 hours per week of pull out). Even that is probably not going to be available next year as the principal of the school decided that "all children are gifted" and he would rather work on a strong academic program for all (some parents complained of preferencial treatment and want their kids in the gifted program as well).

Oh, ha. The original question.

I don't tell a lot of people that ds is GT; they typically figure it out on their own if they see him enough. And if they don't, they typically don't need to know (unless it is school).

Ds has a bright friend in his k class, probably gifted. His mother struck up a conversation with me soon after finding out ds could read. It was just a little ... I don't know ... obvious? If we get a skip and/or subject acceleration for ds, I think she'll be irritated that we didn't clue her in. Other than that, I've seen very little competition on the academic side from other parents, actually -- which may be a good or bad thing.

Bianc -- Love your story. That's fabulous that you were able advocate for your dd! I agree that EG+ children should all be recognized as special needs. It would make life much easier.

Grinity - we'll miss you while you're gone! I think you're new name is so appropriate for you. I giggle every time I read it.

I agree!


I find this fasinating. XH is being held to a higher standard than the school system? I thought that all children are entitled to a Free Appropriate Public Education? I can understand if the needs of the Gifted aren't recognised as Appropriate by the law, which after all, reflects the sensibility of the U.S. citizenry, but I would hope that if a Judge can tell that a gifted child has special needs, that the FAPE would kick in to effect. Not that I'm unhappy that your daughter is well placed - that is the main thing. But for everyone of your 'daughter' whoes parents can pay for private school, how many children are there who can not?

Curious,
Grimity

I totally agree. It seems like this declaration in a court of law could and should lead to bigger things. If I were bianc, I'm quite sure I would have pursued things the same way. But it does beg the question - what about the public school? When I think of kids whose parents can't afford alternatives or worse, parents who don't even know their child's "special needs", these kids can and will just slip through the system it makes me sad and mad.

Mia - you totally described my DS and DH. Funny! They get totally engaged in surfing the web, math problems, Lego Mindstorms, etc etc etc. Last night, I went out for a dinner with a girlfriend and they had written "I love you" across the living room in legos for when I got home.

And kcab - stick around! We're all in the same boat.

I agree, I think parents need to sue the school system and force them to provide "a free appropriate education". I think the problem comes when there are many definitions of "appropriate". Neither my XH or I wealthy. We are both middle class working people. Paying for private tuition is a big sacrifice for both of us. We disagreed on what was "appropriate" education for or DD. He felt the public system could do a good job. I didn't. The judge agreed with me. I get upset sometimes because we pay taxes to support the public school system, yet they are unable/unwilling to provide the services our daughter (or other people's daughters/sons) need.

I wish every parent with a highly gifted child would go to court and force public schools to provide an appropriate education for every child, no matter what end of the bell curve they happened to be. Special ed right now only recognizes kids with disabilities. Parents of such kids fought a lot to get where they are. I think we need to do the same. I have no problem with my daughter being labeled a "special needs child" because she is. The needs may be different, but they are as important and should not be ignored.

I'm going to try to state it once and for all. Let's see how I do.

Every child is precious and deserves to be thought about well. I mean it, Every Child. Disablilitied. ND. 2E. MG. HG. PG. This is the only position worth taking.

There are other websites that address the experiences of MG children. Further, there are more educational programs that meet the needs of some MG children without a lot of stress from their parents. So what are parents of MG kids doing here? Can a site that makes space for parents of HG and PG kids have something to offer parents of MG kids? I believe so. Depending on the local situation your MG child finds themselves in, and their personality, they may be more 'out of place' than a PG child in a +3SD magnet school, for example. Its about having special educational needs that may or may not be being met. Its about parents who can not afford to passivly allow the local school system to do their business as usual. Some have said that the best way to learn about gifted chldren is to study the experiences of Profoundly Gifted children, because everything is thrown is such stark contrasts.

More importantly, Do parents of MG children have something to contribute here to the parents of HG and PG children? Of Course you do. The fact that you care about a group of families who almost no one else cares about, in itself, is a strong positive contribution. But even more than that, your own experiences figuring out your children absolutly are valuable to helping us figure out our children, and are just as inspiring and important. Some parents of MG children are themselves HG and PG, admit it or not, and your own childhood perceptions are valuable.

Many of us attended school. Usually, School is a world were it's made clear to all that the high achievers are good and valuable, and the rest are not so much. 99% on that test? Good. 98%? Not so good. What a flat, stale, unimaginative place! So I get it that one might feel timid about expressing themselves here. Some of us here even have credentials that their child is very very smart. But 'here' is a place to honor any adult to cares about any child and is willing to go to that uncomfortable place when nescessary on behalf of that child. We, at least, are not in the schoolyard anymore!


It's a big mysterious world, and one of it's beauties is that everyone with love in their hearts has something valuable to offer. If you like reading what we have to say, you probably identify with it in some way. If this can be a home for you, I say, 'Come on inside and pull up a keyboard!' I'm sure some of us will be having 'Am I/my child smart enough to belong here' feeling for a long time, but I would respectfully request that we post about it in terms of how certain experiences have left us feeling timid and unconfident. All of us have those experiences, and so do all of our kids. If we look at this together, we can help each other and our children, and probably every person we come in contact with for the rest of our lives.

Grinity, ((climbing down off the soapbox - or mountian - hummm??))

Yeah, what she said!!

Incog

((hugs to KCab))
I'm still here until Monday, and I'll try to peek in once in a while while traveling...

I do agree that schools "should" have open and above board policies for meeting the needs of gifted kids. OTOH, until the taxpayers make it clear that they want the needs of gifted kids met, and will pay the difference, if there even is one, or there is a State Law forcing the issues, I don't think it's going to happen widely.

I think we need 'not either timid or pushy' moms, like Kcab, everywhere to make friends with all the voters and taxpayers we come in contact with, and gently put forward our perspectives. This might take a while...but while we patch together things for our children, you can bet that the grandchildren will come along and many will have special educational needs as well.

((Rally Cry: For the Grandchildren!!))
Smiles,
Grinity

That is exactly the way it is at my kid's school. I didn't even know why my child was testing in 2nd grade (they test all kids at that time) and no one told me. Our GT program is a HUGE secret and it has taken me almost 2 years to fully understand what all has happened with my child in my effort to see him qualify. My boys are in an excellerated magnet and lots of kids are in the program, but I don't think about half of the parents even know the program is there. And I don't understand the secrecy.



I agree with Grinity and she is right, it is up to us. I love the rallying cry for the Grandchildren!!! LOL! Thanks for the post about all belonging here too. I've never felt unwelcome from any of the members, but my issues with my child seem mundane compared to the struggles many of you are going through. That is what makes me wonder if I really have a right to be here. But I figure I can be a cheerleader for those of you who are struggling with bigger issues with your highly gifted children. Ya'll are definitely blazing the trails for everyone else and I appreciate and empathise with all you are going through.

Dottie - good luck with your "advocacy" issue that is coming up. You don't have to worry about one of the other random anons either because that is me half the time!!! :-)

Dottie - you're going to let us hang on this!?

I think I'm still showing up as anonymous sometimes? I guess I don't have auto login set up.

Heck, kcab, I wonder sometimes if I should be posting here when I read about all the amazing kids -- even with test scores in hand!

For the grandchildren...If you were on the school board and developing a gifted education plan, what would it entail? You'd have to be careful because there are limitations to what you'd commit to because of budgetary constraints (which IS one of your responsibilities as a board member). If students were allowed to work on online courses or independent study (say there was not an available teacher for every level and those two options were more affordable than hiring addl staff), how does a school make sure the student's not goofing off or floundering while working "independently"? If the school paid for the online stuff and the kid never completes it, are there consequences (repayment?). Does the kid get to come back next semester and enroll in another? Ideally real life instruction is better than online, but schools have real money concerns and may not be able to do that. What is to stop every student who wants to enroll in an advanced course from asking for it--how does the school discern which ones it's appropriate for?

I'm asking these questions because I'm on a charter school governing council and the school is just developing their gifted ed plan. Specifically, for my DS 9 who will go there next year and hopefully have a modification for math & L.A., I'm trying to figure out what is realistic for the school to offer. If the Alg 1 class conflicts with his schedule, then online coursework. How does the school select the provider and what responsibility does the school have for successful completion or monitoring online work? Is that the best solution for Jr high (are those age students really independent enough to work like that or are there better options?)

The school currently uses SEM (Schoolwide Enrichment Model) so that every student (not just gifted) has lots of hands-on projects, field trips, guest speakers, critical thinking exercises, etc. They have a talent search coordinator, encourage above-level testing, offer participation in lots of competitions/contests. I'm just not sure what's realistic to expect the schools to provide for HG in terms of differentiation. Current population of gifted (all levels) is 34%.

Love the Desperate Housewives reference!!! (I'm into that show too!!!) I'd like to know your "secret" too (as I am nosy that way) but I understand your not wanting a paper trail.

I like the idea of modifying classes on case by case basis for all kids. I'd love to see flexibility within all grades so the kids could move freely to the classes they need in whatever grade/level is appropriate. Of course, I don't think that would ever happen as it would be too confusing for the administration, but think what great educations our kids could get if they were placed where they need to be in every subject.

cym,
what a great position to be in, but challenging. I have no remarkable insight right now, but I'll be thinking about this one. Please keep us posted, I am interested to see how you all work this out from the ground floor.

Incog

Hi Cym -
I think there needs to be an array of options to met the needs of the individual student. Here are some ideas on my menu:
1) Get a copy of the Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual, and pay for the gifted coordinator to get some training in how to use it.
2) Get a copy of Karen Roger's 'Reforming Gifted Education' and study how each of the options can be incorportated at your school
3) My hunch is that if one looks carefully,from every grade level, perhaps using those talent searches, one can find enough students to put a group together for most classes, or bus them to the high school as a group.
4) Try to set up the schedual so that all kids, in all grades, are taking Math at the same time (preferably the same as at the High School) so that there aren't any scheduling conflicts. Same with the other classes.
5) Independent study is a good idea as well. I wish I knew more details about how to set it up, but I think the key is to use cross grade grouping to limit the nescessity, and then arrange with parents on a case by case basis. One can work with books and meet with a teacher once or twice a week. Parents can pay for the online classes, and a PTA fund can be started for children who need the online classes, but whoes parents can't afford it. Also sometime people from the community can be taped to come and teach a single course.
6) If the school is allowed to allow "partial homeschooling" that is a good way to get the flexibility some familys need. Then the child can attend for everything except Math, for example, and the parents can administer the online or tutored Math class, even if they only do it on the weekends.

Remember there are two seperate problems:
1) How to excuse a child from classes that are innapropriate.
2) How to get a subject at a level that is appropriate.

Try to leave loopholes so that both problems can be addressed.
Good for you for doing this!

For the Grandchildren (and occasionally the Children themselves!)
Grinity

For those who worry that they're in the wrong place...

I think that if this site and the wise people on it help you or if you can help someone else, then you belong here. Period. I like that inclusivity. I really hope no one feels out of place if they are even potentially in a position to get something from/give something to the discussion.

Every kid and every school situation is different and poses unique challenges to us as parents. If this forum helps with the challenges we ALL face, then you belong here. 100%!

That's my position and I'm sticking to it!

Well Said Kriston!

I was also thinking about the acronyms and slang we use. My guess is that if you can take the time to get through all the "what are they talking about," you need to be here.

Grinity

Thanks for all the great advice! Being part of the charter school board has been very interesting to me. Just when you think everything is set (charter renewed, policies updated, terrific set of teachers) there's a new challenge.

It's small (20 kids in each of 6th, 7th, & 8th grades...60 total), limiting simultaneous scheduling of classes (there's only one math teacher, e.g. Imagine the little PTA--although we've been successful in raising money for things like a bus ride to have the kids see Mikhail Gorbachev speak in Midland last year. I really like the "contract" idea. The school has the Iowa scale, so that's good, and the teachers are all "highly qualified", plus several are pursuing their "gifted licensure", new requirement in the state.

I agree with grouping--which happens to be in the school's charter/philosophy/mission. At first I was wary of it because I thought, "why can't kids just work independently when they're ready; why are groups so necessary?" In the workplace, I had experiences where groups held you back, added frustration, some would work hard, some were lax, etc. However, I see how the group encourages my DS 11 to work harder than he would independently, so I'm ok with it.

Partial homeschooling is not possible because of funding, but working independently or in small groups is possible. Plus, commuting to the high school or community college would be possible, with parents required to transport, but clearly it would be better (less time) to have credit courses available at the middle school.

Thanks again for all the great ideas. I've also asked DITD counselors for input re: online courses or programming options for gifted ed plan. Here's what they said:

I had a chance to talk with the team. Everyone agreed both Art of Problem Solving and IMACS are great options. The other option we discussed is ALEKS. ALEKS does offer a school program and comes with an online tutor http://www.aleks.com/k12. Crissa knows of a GT Coordinator who used this program at his school and was going to try and contact him to see if we can get some feedback. Online courses would be a great option to have at your school. However, with any new addition there will be drawbacks. For example, some students may really prefer to work with someone directly, while others may really enjoy a distance program for the sake of working at their own pace. As I understand it, the student could either work in the classroom on the material or go to the computer lab. It probably would be a good idea to have someone present in the room for questions and monitoring. I believe most programs have print out sheets or progress reports and exams, so proctoring probably will not be needed. As you know, it will be hard to please everyone, but this is a wonderful option. I don�t know of too many schools who offer their students distance learning as a choice.


Is there anyone at school who is an Educators Guild member? If some is, or wants to sign up they can post to the e-List and get feedback from educators http://www.davidsongifted.org/edguild/ If someone isn�t able to sign up, I can ask Aimee, our Educators Guild Director to post to the E-list. You may also want to take a look at http://www.bestevidence.org/. This is a great tool that allows you to see ratings of programs and they do have math programs.


I know you may have most of this information below; however you may find it helpful with your decision making process.


Books and a website



� Building a Gifted Program http://www.giftedbooks.com/productdetails.asp?id=40

� Aiming for Excellence: Gifted Program Standards; Annotations to the NAGC Pre-K Grade 12 Gifted Program Standards http://www.nagc.org/acb/stores/1/product1.aspx?Product_ID=69

� Designing Services and Programs for High-Ability Learners http://www.nagc.org/acb/stores/1/Designing-Services-Programs-for-High-Abilit y-Learners-A-Guidebook-for-Gifted-Education-66-P187C0.aspx

� How Academic Talents Are Developed & Nurtured in America http://www.a1books.com/cgi-bin/mktS...gbase&rel=1&ITEM_CODE=0889371121

� Gifted Education: Promising Practices http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Resources_id_12331.aspx

� Re-Forming Gifted Education http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10044.aspx

� Belin-Blank Center for Gifted Education Professional Development services http://www.education.uiowa.edu/belinblank/professional/



Articles



� Twelve Cost Effective Educational Options for Serving Gifted Students http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10363.aspx

� Successful Strategies for Teaching Gifted Learners http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10075.aspx

� Basic educational options for gifted students in schools http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10270.aspx

� Individual instruction plan menu for the gifted child http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10272.aspx

� Best Practices of Schools that Nurture Excellence http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10289.aspx

� What the Research Says About Gifted Learners http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10292.aspx

� Planning effective curriculum experiences for gifted learners http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10278.aspx

� Gifted children: Are their gifts being identified, encouraged, or ignored? http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10169.aspx

Here's are some of my images of asynchronous development:

DD age five, wearing pink silk shaped into a "gown", with a sparkling tiara on her head. She's playing chess.

DS age two, sitting on his Elmo potty chair, reading an adult guide book titled, "101 Questions About the Seashore".

I'd love to hear more about your asynchronous kids!

My DS3 is definitely asynchronous. He met all his milestones on time or way before, but physically and socially he has always been delayed, mostly within normal limits though.

At his third year check-up, I told his doctor that I was concerned because he is so far advanced cognitively but slower than his peers in his social and gross motor development (for example, at that time he never said hi to anyone unless prompted; he could not ride the tricycle or walk up the stairs as fast as other kids; his running looked a lot like a kid I know with cerebral palsy). The doctor did not pay any attention to how he might be gifted but suggested that DS get tested for Asperger�s and physical disability. I was disappointed but agreed to get DS tested because I didn�t think there would be any harm in getting tested. After spending about three hours in filling out the paper work that was mailed to me by the Asperger's specialty clinic, and then doing my own research on Asperger�s and giftedness, I decided it could in fact be harmful to entrust a gifted child to the mental health care professionals who are ignorant of characteristics of gifted children and mislabel them with a mental illness. The book, Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children and Adults by Webb, et al., (2005), and the article, Is Asperger syndrome/high-functioning autism necessarily a disability? by Baron-Cohen (2000) were especially helpful and reassuring. DH and I are now convinced that DS�s giftedness combined with his introversion could be mistaken for Asperger�s. We will wait and see at least another year before getting him tested for Asperger's. I know getting that diagnosis is not a horrible thing if that's what's appropriate (as I'm sure Lorel can tell you better than I can) so we're open to the possibility. But I think he is catching up socially (or maybe it's other kids who are catching up with him). I think he will always be viewed by others as "weird" because his observations and preferences for discussion topics are unusual for his age, but he does not stand out so much now that other kids his age are also developing widely diverse interests. Before, other kids would all gravitate toward blocks and noise-making toys (and often get into physical altercations which would always get DS extremely upset) while DS would sit in the corner by himself and skip count by 2's and 5's or set up marbles to represent the solar system; now, it seems all the kids his age, including my DS, actually listen to each other with interest and verbally express their thoughts, which DS feels much more comfortable with.

I did choose to see a physical therapist though. Her eval was that he was about 4 months behind in gross motor skills but not delayed enough to warrant a special treatment. On the side, she told me not to worry, that she thinks the problem is just that DS is extremely cautious and does not like to try things he is not 100% sure he can do. His difficulty is caused more by his personality than any actual physical problem. It was reassuring because that is exactly what I had suspected.

As far as emotional growth, I'm not sure what's going on there. Starting very early, like age 1 or 2, he would quietly shed tears while listening to classical music or get upset if an animal or an insect would get hurt, so I know he is capable of emotional depth. But he does not empathize with people very well. I'll just have to wait and see how he develops as he gets older.

Anyway, I hope the description of DS and my experiences help others who are going through a similar situation!

Junior

Junior-

I was both crushed and elated to get DS's diagnosis. It finally made sense of all his quirks and foibles, yet I also was sad to have to let go of the idea that he would be a regular kid.

My advice is to embrace a label only if you think it will help you to understand and assist your child. You know your child better than anyone else.

take care-

Doctors tried to tell us that my son's physical differences were not bad enough to require therapy. One doctor told us that he had a friend in college that probably had mild hypotonia and wasn't quite as coordinated as other people and he made it sound like it was just individual differences--kind of like hair color, nothing to be too concerned about. His friend also did musical theater like my son.

My 9 year old who didn't walk until he was 18 1/2 months old and never crawled who probably should have had physical therapy never received it. His doctor would not sign the paperwork to authorize PT but instead referred him to a neurologist who couldn't find anything wrong but said he couldn't rule out a congenital myopathy. Shortly after that he started walking and they seemed to think he was okay.

He didn't go to preschool so I didn't realize that he was still physically different. But when he started Kindergarten at age five he was afraid to go up and down stairs and he would talk to the teacher on the playground instead of playing with the other kids. He couldn't cut well or color in the lines very well or draw well but he could read well and his favorite book to read was a science encyclopedia which he brought to school to read to the class with his letter of the week show & tell for the letter E. The kids were just not interested in the things he was. The only thing I remember seeing him do with the other kids was play with the puppet theater and pretend he was different characters with voices and everything and the other kids seemed to like this. He found that he could make other people laugh and he really enjoyed this. This is how he deals with this mild invisible disability.

At age seven he saw a developmental pediatrician, was tested by an OT, and he was also given the WIAT by certified educational psychologist. They told me he was gifted, that he did not have Aspergers, and that I should have him do activities from the Out of Sync Child Has Fun and get him a chin up bar for his room. We did all of that and he still has problems. I realize now that his biggest problems have more to do with motor planning and apparently this did not show up on the test the OT gave him. Since he had learned (with great difficulty) how to skip and do forward rolls in dance and gymnastics he could do the things on the test so it didn't look like there was much of a problem. At the time I couldn't understand how other people could see these differences but the professionals couldn't. The developmental pediatrician did not give us a diagnosis but in the report it mentioned his vestibular and proprioceptive sensory issues which led to my reading about sensory integration dysfunction and my son has a lot of the characteristics for vestibular and proprioceptive dysfunction. He also fits a lot of what I have read about motor dyspraxia.

The only therapy he received was vision therapy which helped with tracking issues and helped him read for longer periods without his eyes tiring, but I still don't think he can read as long as other people without getting tired and I worry that this will cause problems with testing.

We hope to get a diagnosis for in a few weeks so he can explain to other people what this difference is, if he chooses to. Other kids notice the difference, especially at things like obstacle courses at his scout camps. New kids in the theater class wonder why I still have to help a nine year old with fast costume changes. Although he does not have an unusual gait, he runs a little differently. He takes longer to learn a series of dance steps than anyone else in his musical theater group but can memorize words and songs faster than most of them, even the older teenagers. People don't understand this difference. He doesn't appear physically different and he seems so smart in every other way--he enjoys reading psychology related books and articles, loves playing MMORPG games and wants to learn how to design computer and video games, is two years advanced in math in spite of handwriting difficulties and always wanting to solve problems in a different way than I was taught, is practicing for a spelling bee, and he can carry on a conversation about so many things because he reads the news online or listens to it. They notice that he seems a little weaker and has a little less endurance than they do. He refuses to do crafts around other kids and I don't force him to. He is self conscious about the way he draws so he won't do it in front of other people. I wish I had demanded therapy of some kind. I wish I hadn't heard about gifted kids and asynchronous development and overexcitabilities because I thought that is all it was so I didn't demand therapy for his differences. I wish I could say that I tried everything. Now I wonder if it is too late.

I also thought maybe he was just very cautious when he would stand and watch other kids for a while before getting on playground equipment. I used to hate those indoor playgrounds at fast food restaurants because if my son got the nerve to go up in one he couldn't get up the nerve to come down the slide or down the ladder and I would have to go up in the thing and get him. People tell me that "he thinks too much" before he tries anything.

My son did something else that made some people think he might have Aspergers but can also be a sign of sensory issues--he flapped his hands when he got excited. He stopped doing this in public, but my sister thinks he must have Aspergers because he used to do this and he talks like an adult using a better vocabulary than most adults where we live and the fact that he started reading at 2 1/2 without being taught. But he is very social and his social skills are better than mine. I was extremely shy as a child and wouldn't look people in the eye and wouldn't speak to people outside of my family and I have two uncles who are engineers and I think if you have engineers in the family they automatically think possible Aspergers.

I do not have Aspergers. I was just a very shy kid with anxiety problems. I don't doubt for a minute that my son would be misdiagnosed with Aspergers if he were more like the way I was as a child. I didn't really overcome my shyness until I was an adult.

I think it must be difficult for doctors to make a diagnosis for such outside-the-box children and that is why I continue to learn as much as I can on my own about my son's issues. But my son still just thinks I should just quit worrying about it and accept his differences. He seems happy enough and I don't think he has any major self esteem problems, except for the occasional comments about other kids thinking he is a geek or "white and nerdy." Since he homeschools, he is only around friends who accept him for who he is and who seem to really enjoy his company and he doesn't have to deal with the bullies at school that his gifted friends who don't do sports have to deal with.

Hi Lori,

Sorry you had such a bad experience with the doctors. Glad to know your son is doing well now.
FWIW, I have a friend with a child that was diagnosed with hypotonia around birth. Also has sensory integration issues. That child has had all kinds of therapy beginning in infancy. I think my friend would say it's fair to describe child's progress with the support of therapy as marginal. There is no way to know if therapy would have solved the problem and you can't go back anyhow, so please don't be too hard on yourself for not insisting on it.
I am definately from an out of the box type of family. It can be frustrating and sometimes it would be nice to have a set diagnosis and perhaps a manual to go with! Unfortunately, it's never easy and I hope you find a lot of support here.

Incog

Hi Lori,
I'm an SI certified OT and also parent of a GT 6 y/o. What you describe certainly sounds like dyspraxia. I've recently noticed that gifted kids can certainly compensate better than most when it comes to issues related to dyspraxia. Many kids I see look really good until you push them into new areas of motor skills. It's the novelty that trips up someone with dyspraxia. Most kids with good intellectual skills are also really good at what we call "practice to mastery" when they are highly motivated to achieve at a task.

Who are you seeing now for a diagnosis? Try to find an SI certified OT and one who also knows some interventions as adjuncts to OT. I do Therapeutic Listening and Interactive Metronome, both of which are auditory based interventions that can help with dyspraxia. He is not too old to seek out intervention, if he is struggling with differences that cause him frustration or anxiety during daily activities.

Feel free to email me if you have questions. Best of luck. It's good to hear that your son has found things he loves. No matter what, it's most important to just be able to pursue what we love doing.

He does compensate well if he has enough time to practice. For instance, in one of the songs the group did, "King of New York" from Newsies the choreographer had him do a forward roll at the same time as another boy and they were supposed to use a word in the song as their cue. When they were first learning the dance, my son could not do it fast enough, but by the day of the performance he could. I asked him how he managed to do it and he said when he is told to listen for a certain cue he has to come up with his own--usually a word or two before what the choreographer says in order to coordinate his movements with the other kids. His body seems to take slightly longer to respond and this is how he compensates. He also had to do a spin around dance move on his knees that was difficult at first but he was able to do it by the day of the performance and he could do it in time with the music. Another song he had to sing and dance to was "America" from West Side Story and the music is very fast paced. He did well enough on this dance also that his problems were not noticeable--but they put him on the back row of dancers in the more difficult part just in case he couldn't do it.

I wonder if I will always have to help him with quick costume changes. I can't imagine that he will ever be fast enough with buttons to be able to do it himself.

Do you think Therapeutic Listening and Interactive Metronome would be any better for him than what he is already doing? He has had to dance and sing in time to music for the last five years and he has been in piano lessons for four years to help with fine motor coordination.

My special ed teacher friend told me about a friend of hers whose son has sensory issues like my son and is doing listening therapy but he had academic problems that my son does not. My son had always been a very good auditory and visual learner. His difficulties are only motor related like the handwriting, and tests did show that he had visual motor integration problems a few years ago. He homeschools and types most of his work now. Would Therapeutic Listening or Interactive Metronome help with this?

Since he homeschools I wouldn't say his differences cause him that much frustration or anxiety now that we have found ways around handwriting difficulties.

It is when he is around kids his age like at Cub Scouts and not being able to skate with other homeschoolers that his sensory and motor planning issues cause a problem. He has talked about quitting scouts because of his differences.

I would also really love for him to learn how to swim and we can't seem to find a class that allows the extra time he needs to get used to the water and actually learn to swim.

He will be seeing a developmental pediatrician he last saw two years ago. I don't know if their OT is SI certified. All I was told is that testing is supposed to take about two hours.

Thanks. I really do appreciate the support.

Hey Lori - my son had real difficulty learning how to swim. He is very sensitive and cautious about certain things - like sticking his head under water. We found fantastic private swimming lessons at a local university. It literally took about the water equivelent of him taking the 1st level class about 4 or 5 times, but now he's a swimmer and is doing fine in the level 2 class with everyone else. You may be able to find something like that if you call around to local swim programs? It worked well for us!

Good luck!

Lori:
Actually, what you describe in the last post is *exactly* what Interactive Metronome could help. He sounds too high level for Therapeutic Listening although "The Listening Program" might address some of the issues (two different auditory stim programs, similar names, very confusing!). But, Interactive Metronome is designed to tap into the underlying neurological processes of timing and sequencing. What I see after the 5 week program is that the person typically increases in level of automaticity for coordinated movement. I had an adult with Tourette's do the program who reported that before IM he had to think "right, left, right, left" while walking and couldn't dance or catch a ball well at all. After IM, he learned to dance, could "walk and talk" at the same time and was surprised when he reached out and caught a ball that someone had tossed unexpectedly toward him at a picnic. He was thrilled with how it took his coordination to another level, where he didn't have to *think* about every movement.

IM could be worth the 5 weeks time investment, perhaps over the summer when school is out, to see if it will help your son's movements become more automatic. Check for a provider and more info at their website: www.interactivemetronome.com

Thanks. After watching the video on their website it made me wonder if the Dance, Dance Revolution game that my son already has might help him if he would actually use it. I found a site with comments from parents who had tried both DDR and IM and one parent said he got similar results with Dance Dance Revolution. I think we might try that first.

On the IM site, under research, there should be a link or reference to study published in the American Journal of Occupational Therapy. In that study they compared three groups of boys with ADHD (specific ages, but I forget that right now). The three groups were 1)control group with no intervention, 2)group that played video games (duration, frequency and type of games were not specified in the research article, from my recollection) and 3)a group of boys who participated in IM training.

The IM group and the video game group BOTH showed progress in areas assessed. But the IM group made MORE progress and in more areas than the video game group.

I agree that video game use can improve some skill areas. I think if you can get your son to play DDR and he makes gains, great. The plus for video games is that it is so motivating. We got a Wii console for Christmas. I have no doubt that playing and improving your performance on Wii games (certain sports related games, timing and coordination games) carries over into real life experiences. We just got the purchase of a system approved for our physical rehab dept. I'll be eager to hear how DDR goes for your son!
Good luck!

Debbie,
Do you know at what age such programs are appropriate and effective? My son has problems with coordination and balance (his running is very clumsy, cannot catch a ball well, cannot walk the balance beam no matter how low, etc.). I can imagine interventions like that could be helpful in the future if he does not improve. But he is only 3 right now (almost 4) and I don't know if he would cooperate or enjoy such formal programs. Also, at this age, it is not clear whether he has a serious problem or whether it's just his age and personality. He is very cautious and the activities he prefers are naturally sedentary (reading, computer, etc.). I was that way when I was little - I hated gym classes, occasionally got teased for lack of athleticism, could never quite master those childhood activities that come so easily for many like swimming and riding a bike... I guess I'm a natural nerd at heart, but aren't there a lot of "normal" people like that? Nobody, including myself, ever thought there was anything wrong with me. At what point in the spectrum do we decide what is normal and what is problematic? If my son grows to accept that he will never be graceful and feels perfectly happy to give up on becoming a professional athlete, should I still worry about getting him formal help?

Sorry, I guess I'm starting to ramble. I feel conflicted about how to deal with my son who has many amazing talents but also some unusual deficits. I want to prevent any harm to his self esteem by providing opportunities to correct his problems early on, but I'm also afraid that if I intervene unnecessarily, my efforts might actually do more harm than good. Do you have any thoughts on this?

Junior

Hi Lori -
My DS has been playing a lot of "guitar hero" with his friends. I think it might be an 'half-step" to DDR. There are also finger versions of DDR over the internet.

smiles,
grinity

My DS has also been playing "guitar hero" and I think it is wonderful for his visual tracking issues. I told my DH I think it is actually working as therapy for him. (and I have to admit I like playing it too - it's fun!)

We don't have DDR but maybe that would be good for him too.

Junior:
I think you are wise to keep an eye on things and also being very conscientious about what is "normal" versus a "disorder." My opinion is that old saying "if ain't broke, don't fix it." In this situation, if your son is happy then "it ain't broke."

Occasionally I see a child whom the doctor is worried about because of motor coordination problems, but the child is happy, the parents are happy and the "problems" don't interfere with the child's daily activities or family activities to any extent that is considered "dysfunctional." In those cases, even if the skill level is below average, I don't do treatment. If, however, the child is not succeeding in kid tasks, the parents are concerned because of social isolation and their child being "left behind" by peers or either parent or child is stressed due to the problems, then I recommend treatment.

Earlier in this thread I think I shared what a psychologist told me about gifted kids. I have heard others say similar things. Sometimes a child is gifted in some areas and typically developing in others. The asynchronous development can make it *appear* that there is a disorder or the child is below average because the other areas of development are exceptional. But it is important to recognize what is "typical" for a given age. I think it is also important to realize that there are sooooooo many different areas of development and they can't all possibly develop at the same rate across the board. Some kids have spurts of motor skill development while verbal skills sort of idle or vice versa. These differences are especially evident in early childhood. I'm noticing with my own son, almost 7 now, that the asynchronous development is starting to have a smaller gap, just like all the experts say should happen!

As far as the formal programs, Interactive Metronome is recommended for age 6 and up. I find it difficult to engage a child under the mental age of 8 or with severe attention deficits in the program. But it is the therapist's job to find the motivators! I have read some literature from the IM company that there are therapists using the program in modified form with children as young as 2 years. But I don't have any personal experience with this. Therapeutic Listening can be done in children under 2, but not with the headphones. There are strict criteria for the administering the program for kids that young. Over 2 years you use the headphones, which is much more effective for the auditory stim. I find Therapeutic Listening very effective in the age group of 2 to 7 years. I often use it as a precursor to IM training for older children (6-9 years) when there are significant auditory processing issues or attention issues.

Sorry, I get pretty long winded on topics I'm passionate about! Hope I managed to answer your questions.

My son saw the developmental pediatrician today, but the OT was sick so she wasn't there to test him. We are still getting a referral for OT because the doctor said he does have dyspraxia and dysgraphia along with the hypotonia and vestibular and proprioceptive issues and also some anxiety. She was listening to his heart when she told him he needed to start riding his bicycle and his heart rate went up when she said this. She thinks he should see a counselor about his anxiety. I think anxiety issues will disappear when he feels more in control of his body and doesn't have to worry every time he hears that he has to do crafts in Cub Scouts or 4H or Vacation Bible School or when he has to write or draw something in front of other people or learn a new dance quickly. She thinks I should make him do the crafts and draw in front of other kids even though he is uncomfortable doing it in front of them, and I am not so sure I agree with that.

My anxiety only gets out of control when I feel like my life is out of control and there is nothing I can do about it. When I have choices and feel like I can do something about whatever it is I am worried about, I don't have this problem.

The doctor said that even though he has the writing disability and dyspraxia she agreed that he probably would not qualify for an IEP or therapy in our public schools because he is above grade level in everything else.

So Lori H,
How did you feel about the whole experience? Besides po'd that the doc was stressing your kid, that is! Did it give you info, or a needed referal? Did it back up your insticts?

I have mixed feeling about control and anxiety. My son is in the same "I'm not anxious as long as I'm in control" boat, and I think it's a fine line to walk. If the %of life that needs to be in control is getting smaller, then I think all is well.

Last year there was a tragedy with one of his classmates, and of course, this '% of the world needing to be in control of' whet way up and is only now starting to come down bit by bit.

I'm not a big fan of the mental health profession, and feel that with HG/PG kids it's even harder to find someone who 'gets' our kids, but I would reccomend that you continue to look for ways to teach life-skills that decrease anxiety and need for control. I do believe that it's also important to look for ways to slowly, slowly expand the circle of 'comfortable activities.' Perhaps there is one child that he could do one motor activity in front of that is his strongest at and see how that goes. ((Cookie Decorating popped into my mind, - shrug))

Micro-baby steps have helped us SO much. And of course no one else gets it. So I encourage you to take the advice and break it down into micro-baby steps. We are always looking to give the old, "Balanced Push" ((think one hand pushing from behind and the other placed on the sternum in front so the kid doesn't go flying and fall on their face)) at the child's "Readiness Level." ((I'm guessing that you already are doing this, but perhaps haven't been giving yourself recognition for how important it is.))

Of course it's really impossible to find a kid's readiness level without 'overchallenging' them a bit once in a while. Big advantage of living with them is that we know them so well!

((big giant hug))
Grinity

I am happy that we got an actual diagnosis this time, but I had hoped she might be able to tell us why he is like this when almost everyone else in our family was athletic. But I don't think we will try to get an appointment with the neurologist now because the doctor said we will never know for sure what caused the dyspraxia. She asked if I took any medication when I was pregnant with him and I told her just the headache medication recommended by my doctor. She said it could have had something to do with the forceps delivery, cord around the neck, possible mild birth asphyxia, etc. or it could been something else and she thinks it would be a waste of time and also expensive to do an MRI or anything else the neurologist might order when it doesn't change anything.

I was surprised that my son's heart rate would go up at the mere mention of learning to ride a bicycle, when speaking or acting and singing in a musical in front of a lot of people, which would send me straight into a full blown panic attack, doesn't. This is so sad. All of the activities that kids are expected to do and are supposed to be fun stress my kid out. On top of being different because of giftedness and not quite fitting in except with other gifted kids because of that, simple childhood activities stress him out.

The doctor asked him what kind of shows he liked to watch on television. He said he didn't watch very much, but the shows he did watch were usually educational in some way and he also told her liked to listen to the news every day. She told him to stop watching the news and to watch kid shows instead.

I thought she would tell me to make him practice writing more after I told her that typing worked so well that we sometimes forgot to work on handwriting, but she said I really needed to talk to the OT about that. I don't know how soon we will be able to get in to see the OT.

When he starts getting OT and making some improvement, then I think I will have him start taking those baby steps in doing things that he is not very good at in front of other kids.

But I keep thinking about how having to give oral reports in class when I was a kid never helped me get over my fear of speaking in front of a crowd. As an adult, I had choices and chose jobs that didn't require speaking to groups.

At least when he is an adult I think it will be easy for him to find jobs that don't require coloring, lots of handwriting, bike riding, etc.

Sometimes I feel really confused about all of this. I am supposed to make him do things that are supposed to be fun for kids but he tells me that everyone else's idea of fun is not his and he doesn't want anything else added to his schedule. He wants to have time to have fun his way.

So today, for breaks we will get out his Dance, Dance Revolution and his Guitar Hero (he has one, just doesn't use it all the time) and we will just try to have as much fun as we can.

LoriH,

My understanding is that one refers to special ed (and, miraculously, GT is under special ed in NM) when there appears to be a significant discrepancy between expectations and behavior. A very gifted child with OT issues seems to be precisely that! Do check in with the schools to see if you can get OT services!

Aline

Unfortunately, the state I live in--Oklahoma--does not require that OT be given, no matter what the disability, if the child is not failing in some subject as a result of the disability. Because my son's reading, comprehension, spelling, math, and everything they test is above grade level for his age he would not qualify. Because my child, like a lot of twice exceptional children, is good at compensating for some of his disabilities he would not only not qualify for services, he would most likely not be allowed to do the above grade level work he is doing at home. He just told me that one of the things he told the doctor was that he felt good about himself even though he has some physical problems because he knows that he would surpass most of the kids his age mentally. To hold him back from the one thing he feels good about--learning--because of his disability is just plain wrong.

Months ago, when I talked to the gifted coordinator for our state, she encouraged me to write a letter to my legislators to ask that our laws be changed to require OT in public schools for twice exceptional kids, but I really don't think it would do any good. In my state, it seems that most people are happy with a mediocre education and they don't understand how I could ask for anything special for my child who is academically gifted.

If they would just allow some kind of part time school it would be great, but they won't. I would love for him to be able to attend the one hour a week gifted class at the school or band class next year, but he would have to be enrolled full time. A friend of my husband's who is a state representative and also on the education committee, and used to be a teacher, thought there should be a part time school option, but she says too many people are opposed to the idea. Many of the homeschoolers are against it because they think it opens the door for the government to get involved in their lives. I'm not quite sure I understand why. They haven't been very friendly ever since I mentioned that I thought part time school might be a good idea, so homeschooling feels very lonely sometimes but I can deal with it.

So my choices are to keep homeschooling or move out of this state. There are reasons that we cannot move so we just have to do our best we can with what we have. At least we can take breaks throughout the day to work on his motor planning issues and this could be fun, I suppose. We did get the Dance, Dance Revolution game out. He hasn't used this in six months, but after about 15 minutes he was able to get a C grade on the "Play That Funky Music" song. I tried it and couldn't do it as well as he did. I didn't realize it had a metronome feature on it and we turned it on, but my son says it doesn't help him and in fact it annoys him, so we had to turn it off. He said he wished he could get a video of me on the DDR to put on YouTube.

I think for exercise and increasing endurance, the DDR is good, but I realize now after watching him on it that it probably won't help with his motor planning issues. I don't think it will help him learn sequences of 10-15 dance steps in dance class any faster. I can't wait to see what an OT tells us.

Well I agree with the 'don't watch the news' (I think it's really gives a lopsided view of reality) but think the advice to watch kids show is patronizing, unless you are out to try and help him relate to agemates, when watching their shows is a good stratagy actually.

Hee Hee! That's one to print out and put on the bathroom mirror! so true!

Yes, giving reports in class isn't a babystep, much less a microbaby step. Email reports to your grandparents might have been the just right micro-baby step for you.

I think part of accepting that our kids are following a 'different developmental path' is accepting that what is fun for an ND kid may not be fun for our kids, but it still may be worth pursuing. After all, what's fun for our kids (Math, Science, Vocab, etc.) might not be fun for an ND kid, but still might be worth pursuing. After all - my kid was making jokes with the punch line "infinity" at age 4, and having a great time. Not sure many ND kids of any age can say that.

Smiles,
Grinity