Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy exasperated, aggravated and defeated!

I don't know what's going on with DS8 lately, but he is driving us absolutely bonkers! It's getting to be a "you say black, I say white" kind of situation, and we are at wit's end.

Typical tidbits of late:

Me: Oh, so you find the library chilly?
He: NOOOO, when it's cold outside it's cold in the library!
Me: How is that different from what I said?
He: ... I don't know.
[followed by five minutes of arguing who said what and how the statements are, in fact, not different at all]

**********

Me: Why are your pajamas not in the dresser?
He: I didn't know if I should fold them.
Me: Daddy said "put the clothes in the drawer," right?
He: Yes, but I didn't know if I should fold these.
Me: Put the clothes in the drawer. How much clearer could it get?
He: But I thought maybe later -
Me: PUT THE CLOTHES IN THE DRAWER! HOW MUCH CLEARER COULD IT GET?!
[pause]
He: I'll put them in the drawer.
Me: [with steam coming out my ears] THANK YOU!!

***************

He: Can I wear this [red rubbery bracelet] today?
Me: No, you can't take it to school.
He: But I could wear it for Red Day.
Me: Today is Red Day, and you are not taking it to school. Go put it downstairs in one of your treasure boxes.
He: But maybe I could keep it right up here so -
Me: MAYBE I CAN THROW IT OUT AND THEN WE'LL HAVE NOTHING TO ARGUE ABOUT!


GAAAH!

I was sobbing last night to DH. I spend all week thinking "oh, I wish we had time to do this," "the boy would love to do that if only we had time," and "too bad that happens during work hours, it would be great to do with the boy." And then we get a long stretch of weekend with plenty of time to do things and I can't stand to be around him for two minutes! So I go away for awhile and decide to try again in half an hour and the first words out of his mouth are more and more argument!

He's really a well-behaved kid, especially given what we observe with the neighbors, his classmates, etc. But we have a really hard time keeping that in mind when his mouth is moving constantly and spewing nothing but backtalk and sass and contradiction.

Not to mention the thousand little broken rules all day long ... I am SO SICK of saying "wash your hands with soap!"

I don't know what's going on with him, I don't know how to make myself more patient, I don't know how to get back to a more respectful tone (on both sides) in our conversations.

And I don't know how to get him to wash his stinkin' hands.

Sigh. Vent over. Thanks for reading.

Sending lots of hugs your way!!! Your comments are so very much like several conversations we have here with our almost 7 year old son :-) We are convinced that he will make the world's greatest lawyer and could argue himself out of anything. My husband made a joke the other day that it was like the last month with DS was like living with a crazy teenager going through puberty. Then this weekend we had him stand on his measuring wall to see if he had grown...he grew almost 2 inches in under a month......every time he goes through one of these massive growing spells he acts like a dragon! The sad thing is that he goes through massive growth spells every month :-) The doc says he is going to be a minimum of 6'2 and he is already into size 5.5 boys shoes. Maybe your little guy is going through something similar?
Hugs again!!!

Wow, Belle, I think you may be onto something. We just did his 6-month measurement a couple weeks ago and he is 1-1/2" taller than he was in April. His new set of school jeans are not going to last very long, but the next size up is still *way* too big. (I did find that Levi's makes interim sizes, and those seem good for now, but I'll have to buy several more pairs soon ... but cripes those things are pricey compared to Target!)

For some reason it never occurred to me that, despite having just measured him, he may actually continue to grow afterwards. You mean they keep doing that growing thing all the time?!

So, can we avoid him until he is comfortably in the midst of the size 10s?

Thank you so much for the hugs, I really need them!

Ahh. You ask him hard questions. He isn't an adult, although he probably has shaped your behavior into verbally conversing like one. I promise that he doesn't have the power to 'make' you argue with him. You are the adult and you hold all the cards, except his outstanding ability to be irritating if he 'goes there.'

What is your favorite parenting book? Get it out and brush up your act. If you don't have one you like, you can borrow my current favorite:

I know that it would be nice if you DS was more 'giving' but he's just going through a very self-involved stage right now. It will pass. You can reward him for being 'nice' to you, and if those rewards are sweeter than the excitement he gets from arguing and obstructing, then he will act nice too, but right now you and he are locked in a dance were arguing and slacking are very engaging. If you feel like you can't stop, how do you think that he is going to be able to?

((Hugs))
Grinity

If I didn't know any better I'd think you were a fly on the wall in MY house about 6 weeks ago! We were seeing the exact behaviors you described before pulling ds from school to homeschool. Then again I was at my wits end last week, literally in tears all day for two days, and I'm trying to homeschool ds. Not the same behaviors, more inattention and emotional breakdowsn! We took a little break, went out of town, and he was an absolute charming little angel at the wedding we went to. In fact, he was wonderfully behaved the entire weekend.

We're back home today, and he's better than last week, but I can see him slipping right back into his usual behaviors. I feel for you. Honestly I do. Just try to look at it as a phase and not that your ds is going to turn out to be a negative, argumentative, difficult person. That's always my big concern; "oh no, this is how he's going to be forever!" That's usually when I get most upset...I have a hard time putting things in perspective sometimes, and it seems bigger than it is. I'm not trying to minimize your struggles, but I think what you need is a good day together to remind yourself what a great boy you have. Maybe plan a special event or visit a park, zoo, something he loves to do. Take yourselves out of your usual environment and routine.

Also, just curious if you ds appears to be enjoying school. My ds showed a lot of those same behaviors because he was very stressed in his school environment. Not trying to project, but I thought I'd mention it. Ds was not challenged in his classroom and was in trouble a lot for not paying attention, talking, etc. It was just a very negative environment for him in general. Once he got home every day, he unleashed on the safe people at home.

I hope this helps. Just this mom's two cents. Hope things get better. Sending positive vibes and lots of hugs your way!
Jen

Sadly, I fall into this with my husband all the time! He will argue and argue just for the sake of making conversation! It drives me nuts. I see DS starting to pick up on it.

I think you'll find yourself having more patience if you talk less and when you do talk, get extra silly about it. Something like a very very overexaggerated silly voice "Oh yes, of course, you meant cold not chilly, I can see how cold might have confused you since you were talking about being chilly!"

When you need something done a simple "You can talk to me again when you have put your clothes away" then walk away. Don't let him engage you. I'd stick a sticky note on the mirror that says "Wash with soap or don't come out." If he comes out, don't talk, just walk into the bathroom, point and walk out. Less talk, more action!

Don't keep repeating yourself, you're going to go nuts! I have found that many years teaching middle school has made this part of parenting easier. There is nothing a 7th or 8th grader won't argue about!

Grinity ... great advice and something we all can be reminded of when we are in the heat of it. I, myself, had a few frustrating months with my 3 yr old and was definitely ready to pull my hair out. I had to step back and take some breaths. Talking to my DH helped. It was when I realized it was more me than her and changed my tone and method of handling it that she came out of her phase. We still have moments and I catch myself raising my voice ... but I just remind myself that hey ... I'm learning too.

Just want to send you a big hug ... I know it can be frustrating and I am only dealing with a 3 yr old. :P

excellent advice all around.

Bonusmom -

I hope some of the advice will be useful to you. At the very least, that posting your angst and getting it out is theraputic.

I know for me sometimes the hardest part is "getting out of my own head." for instance, the soap thing. the same thing happens with us. ALL the TIME

typical scenario: I ask DS to wash his hands and watch him run into the bathroom and run out. He is barely in there for a minute so I know he probably, touched the soap for a split second, and then wash his hands for 2 or 3 seconds. (He sometimes does it when I am standing right there!)

I am thinking to myself. "DS needs to wash his hands properly so that he won't get sick. especially since it is flu season, and he is susceptible to bronchitis. And if he got sick he would miss school and I would miss work. And his class is having field trip this week... How can he not remember to use soap when DH and I have reminded him 17 times every day for the last 3 years?...? this kid is going to drive me nuts! etc."

But then I remember that he is not thinking any of this stuff. He is probably thinking:

"The sooner I get in and out of the bathroom, the sooner I can go back to palying legos. Maybe she won't notice that I only touched the soap etc."

Sound familar to anyone?

Excellent point, thanks!

I do use that every so often, but I'm afraid it sometimes makes him feel stupid, so I try to do it only when he seems to be feeling relatively secure. If I can get him laughing, though, it's good.


Heh - I have posted print-outs from the CDC, I have told him the stats about how many children in our area have died and how many have been hospitalized, I have written mnemonics, I had him write a song, I posted a list of what people used for toilet paper before toilet paper existed ... oops, different issue!


I think I'm going to start repeating that to myself!

I've been there done that.

The problem is your child enjoys debating and he is practicing with you. He's not an adult. You are. The best solution I found was simple not discussing the issue. You tell him to put his clothes away. He doesn't do it, you don't ask him why or why not, you deal out the consequence. Pretty soon he'll figure out mom is mom and you mean what you say. Everything isn't negociable.

Too late. I'm already nuts!

The thing that works for me is to sit down and have a talk with DS about how I know he is capable of reasoning out what I mean regarding ordinary requests (e.g. wash your hands, put your clothes away.) In the past, I have always meant "with soap, for long enough to be effective," and so on. I have always meant "folded and in the correct dresser drawer." I expect him to think about what makes sense because I don't want to give him a long list of instructions for every ordinary task. I ask him what it would be like for him if he were forced to communicate with me that way.

If he says he would be annoyed or frustrated, I say, "YES! That's how I feel."

First of all, hugs from here, too. Your situation is a familiar one to many of us.

A couple of thoughts I had. I heard a really interesting speaker last week and he said, "80% of all negative interaction we have with our children comes from our own anxiety." As in the, "let's go - we've got to hurry - we're late - why aren't you listening to me?" variety. And the loaded, "How was school today?" conversation - which really means, "Did you do your work? Did you get in trouble? Did you make any friends? Did you listen? etc." I've really thought about it -- and found it to be true in my life. So I'm trying to create a calmer environment here. If I can control my own anxiety, then at least one of us is calm .

A second thought is that Sylvia Rimm writes really effectively about having a "young lawyer" (I believe it's in her book "How to Parent So Children Will Learn"). She says if you have a child who like to argue, an effective way to handle it is to say, "Okay. Tell me all the reasons why you want to wear this bracelet to school today." (or play outside instead of cleaning your room or get to go to a friend's house). Then you let them make their arguments. When they stop talking you say, "Is there anything else?" Once they've finally stopped, you say, "Okay. I have heard your arguments. I will consider it for (half an hour/until dinner/overnight) and get back to you with an answer." Then you refuse to talk about it anymore. She says to even go and lock yourself in your room if they continue to pester you about it. Discussion closed. But you must come back with an answer at the promised time. And an explanation of why you made the decision you did (though no more debate). And every now and then, for the child to think this is effective, you have to say "yes" to their request.

Good luck!

Irisheyes, I really like that method! I'm going to use that! Thanks!

Hi again Bonus Mom -

I am curious. After reading all the advice, feedback and stories, what do you think is the root of the issue?

- EW

Good question!

My heart still thinks it's all my fault. But the posters here are helping me enormously to get over that. Or at least come up with ways to try to make it better.

Otherwise, I think several things are going on at once. There's the growth-spurt issue; and while his 1-1/2" in six months is nothing compared to Belle's son's 2" every month (yikes!), it is the largest spurt he's had in years, and I suppose that must be affecting him more than we realize.

Then there is his, uh, "dichotomy of thinking," I guess I would call it. While no one here has mentioned that yet, it has occurred to me that, on the one hand, he is prone to speaking and acting without thinking, and on the other hand, he tends to overthink and/or think he knows more than he does. (That's another problem - him cutting me off and finishing my sentence. It's unbelievably frustrating, especially when he's completely wrong!) I've been trying to work with him on both of these aspects for a long time, and while I realize it is a very difficult habit to master (I still haven't!), it doesn't seem like it has been this prevalent before.

I also wonder if there isn't some kind of maturation/struggle to establish independence going on, or maybe it just stinks to be the only kid "against" two adults. Maybe he feels like he should have equal authority - which he will never get, of course, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want it.

Or maybe it's executive function. Or maybe it's being bored at school, and at the same time not wanting to be singled out as different. Or maybe it's a guaranteed attention-garnering tactic.

As you can see, I'm all over the map here! And all these things seem equally likely!

Sigh. I am often amazed at how emotionally aware and articulate many of your children are. You ask them how they feel about something, you ask them what they think of something, and - gasp! - they tell you something that makes perfect sense! I just wish I could crawl inside the boy's brain and figure out what really goes on in there....

Oh, I forgot to mention one more possibility - he has been spending more time with other kids since school started, and I think he's picking up on what other kids get away with saying to their parents. I don't know how to explain to him why that kind of talk doesn't fly with us, beyond telling him that "all families are different." It sounds like a lame explanation even to me, but if I tried to dig deep it'd be a half-hour lecture that would probably make things even worse!

Sometimes I have to tell my son that 'even though I can't explain it in words' I am sure I am right, and since I'm the adult, that's going to have to be enough for now. Same thing with, 'I know that my explaination doesn't seem right to you now, but there is a very good chance that when you are older and wiser, you will understand more than you do right now, and you might even agree with me!'

Sylvia Rimm speaks to this beautifully, but apparently that when a child is young and reasonable, it is very tempting to treat them like a 'little adult' and give the explaination all the time. Only trouble is that when they reach their developmentally correct time to become more 'individual,' then they are primed and ready to expect 'equal rights.' I'm certianly guilty of this. Then again, I was such a compliant child, that all it took was a raised eyebrow to have me cowering in the corner. My DS just isn't built that way. He does much better with clear, consistient boundries.

((shrugs)) and more ((shrugs))
Grinity

My favorite lately is the asking over and over and over trying to wear me down approach and then, when I finally cut him off because I know what he's after, he gets angry because I didn't even let him finish what he was going to say .

We've created a monster with the whole 'state your case and I'll listen until you've said everything you wanted to say' tactic because he does try to alter his phrasing or whatever to come at us a different way, only he's asking the same thing. We've had to start cutting him off at the beginning with a 'suggestion' that if he's going to ask a question he's already been given an answer for, he may want to reconsider.

Maybe it's the age or something...

I am also going through similar issues. I was in tears last week. I feel like banging my head against the wall. I would tell DS7 to do something 10 times and he would not do it because he was distracted, or not paying attention etc. Then he would ask me a question. I answered him once, then he would ask the same exact question again as if he did not hear, or he did not like the answer I gave him. I avoided him all last weekend.

Whether it is your kid who is being argumentative, or my kid who is very distracted (or he is just rebellious), I hope this is just a phase they are going through.

I don't have an answer for you. I just want to send hugs. You are not alone!

I've been advised by those who've been there that things start to improve significantly once children turn, um, 25 or so. A friend uses the term "nagony" to cover both the agony of listening to your children nag you, and the agony of having to nag them over and over and over and over.

I treat myself every now and then to the delicious classic -"Because I Said So!!!" I savour the words as they roll off my tongue, regardless of whether or not they're effective. I love the fantasy world that they conjure up.

Count me in on all counts. :-) I like the one where I politely ask a child to do something and get ignored. Ask again...maybe one or two more times then YELL. Then get the bewildered and/or defensive "Sheesh Mom you don't have to yell." Don't I? Grrrrr
Although I have stopped yelling. We instituted a point reward system that also includes losing points for set behaviors. All of this is written down and was done in conjunction with the kids. Not listening to a parent the first time they say something? Minus 10. So no more yelling. I just say minus whatever and go to the board and take the points. It may not be felt right away but when cash in points day comes they wonder where did all the points go. It has really helped cut down on the fighting between kids as I think they see that all the rules apply equally to all. They also get points for extraordinary behavior and so on Sunday my seven year old cleaned the whole house...everyone's room, did the dishes and cleaned even the bathrooms just on a whim.
I do still try to get to the root of certain pervasive undesired behaviors but decided that in the meantime I needed a way to address them in a positive manner that would have immediate effects. The point system has definitely helped.

I've perfected an icy glare with the accompanying words, "Excuse me?" that works for a lot of situations. The child must know what is expected of them, and must have heard the original instruction for this to work. The child must already respect me as the authority. The grands have learned that grandma not only rocks, she is a rock!

[/quote] I also wonder if there isn't some kind of maturation/struggle to establish independence going on, or maybe it just stinks to be the only kid "against" two adults. Maybe he feels like he should have equal authority - which he will never get, of course, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want it. [/quote]


We have had many conversations over the years about who is in charge - parent vs. child. My most effective behavior changes with my DS9 have been talking to him away from the moment, when he is motivated to get/do something. I try to focus on feeling good about being one's best self. I try to keep conversations short so it's more effective. Following are two examples I've used.

We have talked about what it means to be a parent. Examples are keeping a job, paying bills, laundry, managing responsibilties, schedules, driving a car, ect. He will have his turn at this when he grows up. Enjoy being a kid. I ask him, Do you really want to be incharge? NO.

When children don't do as they should it invites an adult to boss them. Bossing oneself feels better.

Had to laugh at this one. I have had to create a rule where the more often DS asks, the less likely he is to get the answer he wants. In making this rule, I had to point out that asking, and maybe later reminding once, is not nagging, but repeating the same theme over and over again is nagging.

This goes along with asking me to define *exactly* how many peas, or other bites of food, he has to eat. "Is this enough?" "How about this, if I eat this, will that be enough?" My response has been that the more often he asks, the more that I will require him to eat. He has to guess what is reasonable, and when he is sure he has had enough, he can ask. - This rule, however, is partially because of negotiating and nagging tactics, and partially because he has a lot of foods he thinks are 'okay' but if he isn't in the mood, then he will try not to eat it. I'm not going to tell him he only needs to eat 8 peas, if left to his own devices he will actually eat 12.

Well, I can't explain it, but Dr. Jekyll has returned! Since he came home from school yesterday, he has been over-the-top polite, calm, reasonable and pleasant.

Yesterday he did his homework neatly and quickly and without complaint of any kind. This morning I asked him if he had brushed his teeth. "Oh, no," says Mr. Cheery. "Thanks for reminding me."

He was even funny again - but I'll have to put that in the brag thread.

I don't know how long this will last, but I sure am loving the reprieve.

And I can't thank you all enough for all the support and commiseration and ideas. You have all been so very helpful!

We use the terms Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde quite often in our house, and like you we never know what isthe true root cause of any behavior. These are complicated kids with major extremes. When they're good, they're REALLY good, but when they're bad....

Your ds sounds so much like my ds6. Just wanted to say I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you and praying that Dr. Jekyll sticks around for a long while. He's visiting our house this week too! Thank God! I couldn't take another week like last week without having a nervous breakdown.

I just read this thread again, and it's amazing to me that we experience EVERY single one of the behaviors described by the parents on a regular basis. I don't know if these are behaviors typical for all children (we only have one) or if they are typical behaviors for gifties in particular. All I know for sure is that it is exasperating and wonderful all at the same time.

Good luck. Still sending those positive vibes!

Sounds like my conversations with my 5 year old.

[/quote]When children don't do as they should it invites an adult to boss them. Bossing oneself feels better. [/quote]

Good one! That is one my DS8 will definitely be motivated by. Thanks for sharing!

Oops, messed up the quote!

I actually don't find the first two conversations troubling. Maybe there is a reason he takes you literally, and maybe he truly didn't know if he should fold them first. I think the answer should be "yes, please," and see what happens there. In and of themselves, I don't find the remarks confrontational. I remember reading a book called between parent and child where they discussed letting the little things go (like whether you feel cold or it's always cold in the library when it's cold outside), so you only argue over what is truly important. Sort of a glass half full thing. ???

Oh - forgot to add in our suggestion for hand washing...my little guy had an issue with this as well...we got creative and put some interesting things up on his mirror to read while he was washing his hands....my husband has been singing this silly song he made up where he states the powers of two all the way up to 2 to the power of 14....he sings it while DS6 brushes his teeth and he has it memorized...so we wrote them all down on a chart for him that he reads while washing his hands....we also placed his cubscout promise and pledge so that he could practice saying them :-) These seem to keep him at the sink brushing his teeth and washing his hands long enough to get the job done :-)