Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Why is a teacher usally against pretesting?

Why is a teacher usally against pretesting?
Are they afraid a child being tested will give the answers to the other kids? Is it because there is usally not a end of year summary type test? I'm just asking to give him the test a week ahead. If he doesn't get somethig then she could give him the work sheets for the week. If he has mastery then he should be able to skip the worksheets.

I'm wanting to overcome a teachers objections. I've talked to her 3 times about pretest but I realize she never told me why she did not want to do this. She said she see no problems. Why do kids have to act up before it is a problem?

If he scores 100% on the pretest, what are you asking the teacher to do for him while the other children are studying the material for the test?

If he scores less than 100%, even 99% on the pretest, do you expect him to do everything the other children are doing to cover the material for the test?

I'm not saying I disagree with giving him a pretest, I'm just wonder what your plans are past the pretesting?

Although DS scored >90% on the end-of-year test for 4th grade math, his teacher was doubtful that the four weeks DS spent completing 4th grade math over the summer was sufficient. To help ease his concerns, we agreed to have DS take each chapter test in advance of the class beginning that section so that he could demonstrate proficiency on a chapter-by-chapter basis. It's not extra work because DS is using ALEKS in the class room, and it does not provide chapter testing -- so instead of taking 5th grade tests, he's taking 4th grade.

DS has matched the pace for 5th, completing it within the same time frame as 3rd & 4th. But because the teacher now sees the related homework & quizzes -- and the on-line work takes place under his nose in the classroom -- he seems satisfied with the progress.

My DS (in 3rd) has his 4th grade math book to do or his mindware math book when he is done with his 3rd Grade Math work.

If he tested one week early on his 3rd Grade Math then they would know he doesn't need to do the worksheets for the week. Right? They are letting him skip side B now. It's not extra work for the teacher if he skips the Math worksheets. It would be less work for her because she would have less worksheets to review.

I think 95% should show enough mastery. I'm not sure what they would think. Maybe the teacher needs 100%. I wouldn't want to make him feel like he is punished doing the worksheets. Really he doesn't mind these pages but I'm trying to balance out his day of too much mindless work. This seems like an easy fix if they would agree. Maybe there is something more I don't get here.

If school required a different test, creating that test would be something more for her to do. I'm not sure if this is an issue. If he is not doing worksheet pages, that is something more for her to remember. This seems like it should not be troublesome.

DS's school uses Saxon Math. I really feel like he doesn't need this 3rd Grade Math. I feel like he knew all of this Math in 1st Grade.

I'm thinking of looking thru all the Math worksheets and marking off anything of redeeming value so I could show the principal how few things have value. I wish I had a way to prove to them what he can do or they would give him a chance to show them. Is this a good idea?

I think it would be wonderful if everyone who maintained an A Average would have the option to pretest, then they could do something else besides the extra review not needed. The students have folder work to finish during their school day,reading or extra fun books from home to do. But I can't look to change the system. This school needs baby steps.

I think the teacher's main issue is feeling comfortable he knows all the terms. I wonder if there is a way to get a list of the terms he learns in particular grades thru Saxon Math. I think I will try to call Saxon again. He was having checking issues but I think he has overcome most of that. Any more ideas to address teacher concerns?

Are you clear about what her concerns are?

You know... now that you've said it's Saxon, that might be one of the reasons. From everything I've heard, (not personal experience) Saxon is particularly difficult to accelerate without a substantial amount of work on the teacher's part. It might not be as simple as testing out of a unit, because each assignment in that unit is meant to be a little bit of a new material and a wide assortment of review problems... It's hard to say what can be skipped, since a large part of any work is meant to go with previous work... so unless he tested out of a whole year I'm not sure it would be that simple to say if a unit was necessary or not -- it may include review that the teacher isn't sure he can go without. In fact the only way I've ever known people to accelerate Saxon is to do as you already are doing and skip the B side.

So anyway, all that to say it might not be attitude on the teacher's part as much as a curriculum that isn't as easy to skip around as you would think.

I wonder if a teacher knows what is a new material. I would think she would have to be prepared to teach new material. This work just seems so ridiculous for him to do. He just doesn't need all the review.


Ohgrandma - Are you clear about what her concerns are?
No, I am not totally clear about her concerns. I thought asking here might help me to find out more. I have talked to the teacher 3 times about this and feel like I need to drop it with her for now because she was getting aggravated and just kept explaining the benefits of things like having empathy for the other kids. I am trying to get armed with information so to prepare for the next IEP meeting. I think she is a caring teacher but my son's situation is new for her. I just want to balance out his day more because he is not happy at school. This is very hard. I just need to prove that it is ok.

Gifted mom - thank you I will look at that book and the Davidson article. You are very helpful. No need to appologize I think the school is not there yet with 80% Mastery.

When I talked to the teacher about challenging DS in more Math, she brought up he was pulling some 88% in 4th Grade Math. If you look at his work at that time, most missed anwsers are about the format/checking issues not understanding the Math. He also is so confident he just wants to zoom ahead. This checking issue and format issue is much improved. Right now he has a 95% in his 3rd Grade Math. I'm not sure about 4th Grade Math.

I'm sure she knows what's new, but if you're talking about 50 problems (or whatever) on a page, and five of them are on the new topic, and eight of them are on a topic he didn't ace the first time but maybe has mastered now (or maybe not), and another six are on a topic he did ace but it was a while ago and maybe he could use a refresher (or maybe not), and then seven are on something he's known all his life and can definitely skip, and three are on something he knows but now it's with bigger numbers (or combined with a different topic) so maybe it's a tiny bit challenging..... it's not all that easy for her to go through and say which parts he should skip. Even if he definitely knows the new material, unless he was in a position to test out of the whole year together, there could be something in that unit that he ~might~ need review on. It's just the way the curriculum is designed.

Among the homeschoolers I know IRL and online, I would say that Saxon is the most frequently dropped curriculum for kids who are mathy. It is extremely difficult to sort out what can and can't be skipped, and it's designed to repeat and repeat and repeat, adding challenge in tiny increments. For a kid who doesn't need that much repetition, and who can handle challenge in big increments, it really can just be a bad fit altogether. If you change what you want to change, between what you've said here and the fact practice in the other thread, what you're really talking about is dumping the curriculum entirely.

I'm not saying that's a bad idea, mind you... I have only very rarely heard of mathy kids doing well with Saxon, but you have to know when you approach the teacher that that's where this is probably headed. It's not a simple matter of tweaking -- you're really getting to the heart of the program and what it's designed to do.

My solution to finding something to do when a child pretests out is to buy supplementary curriculum stuff. I have just purchased murderous maths, so that my second and third graders will have something, still math related, to do if they test out of the main topic.

Hmm. Maybe I'm taking this out of context, but that kind of sounds like she's afraid it will hurt other kids' feelings if your child tests out of what they are learning. I suppose she wouldn't appreciate it if you asked if she could have some empathy for YOUR child

Seriously though...I second the recommendation of Susan Weinbrenner's book, but maybe for starters just photocopy the section about pre-testing and compacting to focus on your immediate concern. I'm pretty sure that's the resource that advocates offering, rather than requiring a pre-test for anyone who would like the opportunity (a basic summary of the types of skills to be covered is given to students to help them decide if it's something they want to do).