Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional ADD - not hyperactive

Hi,

I have a DS11. We do not know if he is gifted. My husband and I are, and we also have a MG DS5.5 and a HG+ DD8.

I've posted in another thread about the testing history of our DS11 and that we are about to get his evaluated again to see if he might be 2e.

But, I wanted to ask if any of you have experience with kids who have attention deficits, but who are not hyperactive.

DS11 has never been overly active. He is very tactile and loves to touch things, but can definitely sit and attend to things appropriately. However, it takes him hours to do homework that takes others an hour, not because he can't do the work but because he gets distracted. His teacher says that he is often just half-way through his tests when the other students are turning things in. And by distracted I mean not just with things around him, which really seems to be less of a problem, but with his own thoughts. My nephew has always said that my DS seems to "have a party in his brain" and this couldn't be more true. His teacher said that perhaps he is just immature, but no one has ever mentioned that before and I really don't think that's true.

Have any of you had experience with this?

TIA!

I haven't read the other thread, but this sounds like one highly intelligent kid to me. I expect he needs a really good, understanding teacher to draw his attention and nurture an imaginative, thoughtful individual.

It sounds visual spatial to me too. My DS7 would hear a noise (say a fan kick on) that the rest of us maybe have tuned out, but he then would follow the track of the sound in his brain to its source and then visualize the motor, components of air exchanger, etc. You can imagine this process could take a while and add to that the amazing ability of some individuals (men in my family) to tune out a woman's voice (teacher, mom, etc) and you have a dx of inattention when in fact he is paying quite a bit of attention to the task at hand (finding the source of the noise). Its much more interesting than listening to a lecture or doing a worksheet.

See, I've thought this way about him, too. If you've ever read the Clementine books, the lead character is just this way, too. She IS paying attention, just to other things. I remember saying to my DS's 1st grade teacher when she said he was easily distracted that I always thought of him a hyper-attentive and that he always noticed any changes in the room.

Still, his inattentiveness to his schoolwork is a seemingly big problem. I can't tell you how many times we have to say his name and remind him to get back to work. And I wonder, too, how much information he's missing at school if he's "in his head." The only other time we see a problem -- and boy is is frustrating -- is that he has a tendency to go into the bathroom and stay there for 30 minutes to an hour and you just know it's because he's sitting there thinking.

I looked at a web site (wikipedia, I think) that listed 9 symptoms of ADHD-Inattentive type and he has 6 of the traits. Does this sound clinical to you or just a sign of creatity and/or intelligence? We're pulling our hair out here!

We were told that DS7 though he mimics ADHD he does not have a dx nor would medication "correct" what's "wrong". It was suggested to us to do more hands-on learning to keep him focused on the task at hand he needed more visual stimulation. Black and white paper is not enough visually to keep him on task. We do a lot of the suggestions on this board like the bouncing ball, multiplication facts while jumping either on the trampoline or up and down the stairs (he answers it right he goes up a step, wrong he comes down, etc). Typing is good as are computer programs that have visual effects. I've also noticed that he does not work well in the am, well to be more specific anytime before 3 pm. So we do school in the evening. I know this parallels ADHD types but it is what it is and fortunately we can work around it. I realize a lot of people don't have this option. Giving your son something to doodle with (see doodle thread) is also a great idea if the teacher will allow it.

So to answer your question, for us it is a highly creative mind. IMO Have you read "The Mislabeled Child" by DRs Eide???? That would clear up a lot for you I suspect.

Every child is different, but I have to tell you, we were worried about the same things you are describing. Ds6 was also described as immature. He wasn't paying attention and would talk when the class was supposed to be quiet. He would also get out of his seat without raising his hand, and he'd get in trouble for all of these things. We were worried about ADHD, although he's really not hyperactive.

Psychologist who did his gifted testing didn't suspect ADHD, but we were still worried because the behaviors continued. We just pulled him from his private school, and I'm home schooling. He's like a different kid! Very few attention issues. In fact, if he's learning something new, no matter what it is, he's glued to lesson and asking for more. He was just bored at school. He was working on kindergarten material, and at home, I've discovered he's at the end of first grade, second grade, or third grade levels with most subjects. No wonder he wasn't paying attention. He didn't see the need. If you reserach characteristics of ADHD and gifted children who are not challenged, you'll see how similar the behaviors are.

I'm not saying to discout ADHD because you want to know for sure what's going on with your child, but don't assume it's that. I'd recommend making sure he's really being challenged in the classroom before going the ADHD route. For a gifted child to sit all day and wait for everyone else to catch up, it's torture.

Good luck to you. This site is wonderful for support and information! It's been invaluable to our family.

I think he is challenged enough in school this year. He's switched to a private school so the curriculum is a bit different and he finds a lot of the new stuff (particularly religious history) interesting.

Also, it's not that he's not following class rules or that he's disrupting anyone, just that he takes forever to complete anything in school or for homework. He's not chatty (actually is quite shy and introverted, although he is making new friends) and does remain seated when he's supposed to and otherwise behaves.

I don't know if this matters or not, but in 2nd through 4th grade when he took the state's annual assessments he took the average amount of time, or slightly less, to finish the test and performed average. Last spring he took way longer than the rest of his class to take the assessments and jumped three grade levels in reading (to 8th grade level, when he was in 5th) and up something like 15%age points in math.

I told his teacher today that he does tend to do better on tests when he has more time, but this really isn't the issue. It's that he takes so darn long to so schoolwork and homework and makes so many dumb mistakes because he is constantly getting distracted. I swear, when I check his homework, I can tell exactly where in each problem he got distracted.

Thanks for all your great thoughts so far. I'm really curious how common it is for kids to gets so distracted, but without hyperactivity. I'm also curious about any diagnoses and anything that can be done to get him to focus.

master of none, I'm glad you shared. My DS, too, does better when I sit right next to him and prompt him when I see his mind wander. But, I have two other children who are simultaneously doing homework and it's hard to sit with DS11 for an hour or two. Maybe I just have to find a way to do that, because when I have been able to do it it does help. Unfortunately, I am stuck between whether this is a self-discipline issue that he just needs to take responsibility for or whether this is a medical/brain chemical thing. My gut has always said that something isn't quite right, but I just can't figure out if it's ADD or if it's just that he's "in his brain" thinking about a million different things.

hi mnmom23
I remember when trying to figure out my 2E son that it mentioned "distracted with self" vs. "distracted by external stimuli" in one of the davidson articles that dealt with differentiating gifted from gifted plus aspergers (in addition to a whole bunch of other distinctions)..It said that chidlren with aspergers tend to be more internally distracted. Also, if you don't already have it, a great resource for figuring out what the second "E" is in "2E" is the Eide's book called "The Mislabeled Child"..very detailed explanation of all the disorders and how they can all look like one another. Also I don't want to suggest i think he has aspergers but i remember this discussion of types of distractions and thought it might be relevent to you.
irene

renie,

I know you weren't suggesting Asperger's, but I wanted to throw this out there in case it gives anyone else any insight. I've looked at several different symptom lists of Asperger's and my son does not have any of the symptoms. He doesn't get lost in his own thought so that you can't get his attention, it more that his mind wanders while he's supposed to be doing his work. We can always get him to refocus for a few minutes if we're there, but then he gets distracted again. Non-stop. I think he does get distracted by things in the room as well. But, like hkc75 said about trying to think about the source of a background noise, I think he just gets distracted by something as a starting point and then his brain runs with it.

A clinical problem or a problem with disciplining himself to not get distracted or merely a personality trait? When we get a full educational assessment done, how will they decide which it is?

Hi mnmom23,

Like others I'm hesitant to say too much because I think every child and every situation is unique. I think even within the framework of the ADHD diagnosis, there are so many other factors which may have more influence over a person than the attention piece. So here's my story - sorry it's so long.

Your son sounds an awful lot like the way I was in school. I spent a lot of time in my head, lost things, didn't do much school work, but I was happy in my world. One difference might be that when I was focused on a test or playing music, I wasn't slow. But given anything personally challenging, i.e. written reports that required organization and extended focus, and I felt overwhelmed. As an adult I have been diagnosed as ADD (with no hyperacivity). My understanding is that there are some "impulsive" things that I do that no one would ever really call hyper. For example, I move my fingers around (I'd run through piano or cello pieces with my hands, barely moving them, while in class. I also doodled - this is on another thread.) I haven't suffered many of the greater mishaps of adults living with ADHD like speeding tickets, car accidents, etc. If I had been the parent of me, I would not have opted for medication when I was young. I was an underachiever as I grew older, so in today's world, I would have considered cognitive behavioral therapy and possibly medication when I was an adolescent. Hindsight is great.

One of my kids is a dreamer who gets his work done; the other doesn't get his work done. I was never willing to consider medicating him to help him with school work, but around 5th grade he started to really feel badly about himself and was falling behind. Untreated ADHD puts a person at greater risk for depression and he seemed to be heading that direction. He started taking Vyvanse, a stimulant, in August, and the difference is amazing. He's as silly and creative as ever, but happier and more productive. I think the overwhelmed feelings are the ones that are dangerous.

As an almost 50 year old adult, I started taking a stimulant about 6 months ago. It's hard to describe the effect and I think everyone may have slight differences, but for me it gives me the sustained mental energy to follow an idea through to its conclusion, which in turn makes it easier for me to make decisions.

None of this means that your son has ADHD, or that he needs medication. In fact, if you're not pretty darn sure, I would not look to the diagnosis as an explanation for behavior. But, I am not and have never been hyper (in fact was so quiet as a child I was almost invisible) and I'm proof that there are introverted, non-hyper, non-destructive ADD people out there. And I love the combination!

It sounds like you're paying attention and if your son gets to a point where things aren't working for him, you'll know to look a little further. Enjoy the ride!

Benny

Mnmom23,

I think someone else said this, but I wanted to reiterate. Sometimes when a child is diagnosed with something like ADHD, there is a concern, but it is not necessarily ADHD. I am not a psychologist, but I did a lot of research when trying to figure out my younger son. He got a diagnosis of ADHD, but vision therapy is doing wonders for him...but I had noticed some concerning visual symptoms so I wanted to explore that side of things before agreeing that he might have ADHD. Another friend, her son sounds a bit like yours, also got an ADHD diagnosis, but his symptoms fit CAPD better. He has a hard time differentiating background and foreground noise. He also has a difficult time paying attention to people lecturing at him, so by the end of the day he is exhausted and can't pay attention anymore. The problem is that the normal psychologist who looks at a child does not necessarily have the skills to differentiate these items.

Lya

Hi Mnmom, Have you looked at dyspraxia? Here is a link to symptoms http://www.dyspraxiafoundation.org.uk/services/ad_symptoms.php

Here is the section on
Learning, thought and memory:


Difficulty in planning and organising thought
Poor memory, especially short-term memory. May forget and lose things
Unfocused and erratic. Can be messy and cluttered
Poor sequencing causes problems with maths, reading and spelling and writing reports at work
Accuracy problems. Difficulty with copying sounds, writing, movements, proofreading
Difficulty in following instructions, especially more than one at a time
Difficulty with concentration. May be easily distracted
May do only one thing at a time properly, though may try to do many things at once
Slow to finish a task. May daydream and wander about aimlessly

Maybe that helps.

When someone on a message board first told me about dyspraxia I didn't think my son could possibly have it because not all symptoms fit.

For example:

He has an extremely good auditory memory and could memorize hundreds of words of script and song lyrics at 4 1/2 and his timing is good when he sings. He could listen to something on the news and retell it complete with important details better than I can even though he had been playing a video game while listening. He did sometimes forget where he put things especially if he was talking or thinking about something else when he put it down. He also has a good visual memory for things like words so spelling is one of the things he is very good at if you have him spell orally or type the words; however, if he has to write a few paragraphs he will sometimes misspell words because the physical act of writing seems to take away from his ability to think about the spelling especially if he feels rushed or tired. His motor memory is not good at all but he is often able to compensate for his difficulty with motor planning and motor sequencing by using his very good verbal memory and verbal sequencing ability.

My son is not unfocused and erratic but the messy and cluttered part fits.

He did not have any difficulty with reading and spelling, in fact he read without being taught and started spelling words when he was 2 1/2.

He does take forever to do any kind of written work because writing is harder for him and he has fatigue issues and often needs breaks. Written math problems are harder for him because of his dysgraphia but also because he has trouble shutting out more interesting things that pop into his head. I remember finding him sitting on the front porch on more than one occasion while his cousins played in the yard. When I asked if what he was doing he said he was just thinking. He always liked to think; he was good at thinking, doing was the problem.

Also, some days he seems to be more dyspraxic than others. That is really hard to explain to other people. For example, he recently managed to quickly learn a new song and dance simultaneously. One day he can play a piano piece well after little practice and the next week after practicing a lot, he doesn't do as well. Luckily, he was having a dyspraxic day when he was tested so we got the diagnosis. He hadn't had enough sleep the night before because he was anxious about the testing and testing lasted for hours to the point where he was getting a headache and was very tired so his compensation strategies were not working very well for him.

I will share my son's story, just in case it is helpful. My DS5 got in trouble a lot in kindergarten for not paying attention and doing unusual things (like pulling down posters during story time or tearing up a classmate's artwork mindlessly while other kids were playing during recess). He hated school because he said "there are too many rules" and "boring". The thing is, he is a really sweet kid, quiet and thoughtful and very affectionate with his family, so it made me really anxious and upset to hear reports of his strange/destructive/annoying behaviors. His teacher thought he was smart, but she really had no idea how smart. When he was tested last year at a center for gifted children, his scores were all above 99.9%. He was doing math and reading at 3-4 years ahead of his chronological age. That was done in a one-on-one setting with a tester who had a lot of experience with gifted kids. A year later, at school, he took an achievement test with his classmates. The test contained stuff he had already mastered when he was two, like sight words and easy adding. His scores were perfectly average - in the 50th-60th percentile range! I assumed it was because he wasn't paying attention because the material was too easy, but now I think it was that he was too slow and didn't finish. I recently took him to a private psychologist for a thorough psychological/behavioral evaluation. He got diagnosed with Asperger's and ADD. He is not hyper at all (he is more like hypo!) but he is definitely inattentive. Also, his IQ scores were very interesting. He scored above 99-99.9% in all areas but scored only about 60% in "visual matching". I think that was the only section that had a time limit. With his special needs, a regular school was obviously not a good fit for him. I homeschool him now and he is doing great. He is much happier and he tries hard to control his own behavior and pay attention. He can pay attention to his math lessons for only a short time (10 minutes or so at a time) even though math is his favorite subject. He needs a lot of redirecting and reminders from me during that time. He really knows his math but is unbelievably slow. This could be a problem when he gets older and starts doing more complex math. But he is doing great so far as long as I'm patient with him and give him all the time he needs. He is five years old and just finished a 3rd grade curriculum! He had a bit of a hard time with multiple digit multiplication because he would get distracted during long calculations, but he is getting better with more practice. He is so proud of himself and is very excited to start 4th grade.

After this long story, I don't really have a "cure" for my DS or a suggestion for yours. Here are just some ideas for you to explore. Have you gotten him tested for allergies? My son has allergies and I've noticed when he spends a lot of time outdoors or drinks a lot of dairy, his ADD gets noticeably worse. I am taking him to an allergy specialist next week to figure out exactly what's going on. I suspect casein (and maybe gluten) sensitivity, but we will see. You mentioned that you got him tested before? You might not even know he is gifted if you're just going by school achievement tests. Try to get him in a one-on-one testing environment and, if possible, choose tests that are not timed and a tester who has experience with gifted kids. I wish you and your child all the best.

While I personally have always been the first one done with tests in class, you have described me to a T!!! I'm not hyperactive, and yet my mind wanders and does not stay focused, most especially when I'm bored with what is in front of me.

When the work is not fun or challenging or down right blah, anything and everything can distract me.

I read somewhere that there are several different levels of ADD/ADHD, and I haven't read through this thread. But I will see if I can find it for you.

Here, this might be a start:

ADD & ADHD in Children Link

Are you sure we don't have the same boy at home. Takes forever to do work, seems to hear what he wants and sits in the bathroom for extended periods daydreaming or reading. Mine also likes to maked noises often. He knows it bothers the teacher so I am not sure if some is intentional. I have realized that I make constant noise or talk also. Learned behaviour?

I guess I should give a little update. We consulted with a psychologist after my DS11's teacher noticed him getting distracted in class. This was added to to our extensive observations of his attention problems at home with homework. The psych said it definitely sounded like he had problems with attention, so he gave us survey to have his teachers, as well us us, fill out. Well, as of today they have been scored, and the only survey that turned up clinically significant attention scores were from a teacher who admits she doesn't know my son well. In truth, none of the teachers really do know him well since he's only been at the school since September and since he's very shy and quiet. We also had his last year's teacher fill out the survey, but she had 35 kids in her class last year and I don't know if she would have noticed if he was paying attention or not. So, anyway, we're back to square one.

Next week he'll take the WISC-IV and the WJ-III so that we can try to get an accurate learning profile.

Does anyone have any suggestions about where we can go from here?