Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Push for grade skip now, or wait?

As we're already 10% through 4th grade -- and counting -- I can see yet another year zipping past without any real change.

As of today:

He's working @ his own pace in math & reading. (Yay!!)

He's far beyond grade level for spelling, and arguably so for writing & language arts.

Science is mostly review, as 3rd grade teacher used the same (4th grade) text.

The only "new" content is in Social Studies, which teachers/admin seem really concerned about him missing. (It's about his home state... I think he can catch himself up on that ok.)

He knocked his achievement testing out of the park, and while I know that the "grade equivalancies" don't mean "move him to such-and-such grade," they've got to strongly suggest (along w/YTD performance) that he does not belong in this classroom.

With DYS advocacy assistance, if any (hoping/praying), still several weeks away -- should we push for a skip to 5th now or wait for the professional advice?

I think I would start feeling things out, finding out who the decision makers are and getting an idea of what you will need to convince them.

You may want to start asking for the school to do formal assessments. These things tend to take time...

Have you familiarized yourself with A Nation Deceived and with the Iowa Acceleration Scale?

can't remember...

have you already looked at the Iowa scales?

10% in you should expect push back that school hasn't gotten "started" yet. You might not quick a quick turnaround.

Ditto support for the IAS. This will provide a good set of subjective and objective criteria to guide you.

I'm wondering do you know what the content is for the rest of the year? The first month in our school is review of last year work - It seem so babyish for my kids.

It seems like My DS9 is in a very similiar situation.

Has your school recieved your DS test scores? What was their reaction? Have you ever talked to them about moving up a grade? I think for some that's the best because then the teacher doesn't need to do extra things to keep the kids engaged.

Our school's reaction was - They have never had anybody like this before. (I read somewhere someone with PG score may only come into a school every 20 years.) They created a IEP. We have a meeting plan again in Nov. to review how things are going and decide what adjustments need to be made. It's not perfect but it's a start. His teacher is also seeking some opportinites for him to skip some of the not needed review. Our plan is flexible. I'm hoping we get in DYS so they will help.

How is your son doing with where he is right now? Has your school ever put anyone ahead a grade? If he really needs more now,try for at least something more. Our school let my DS9 do independent studies last year and that gave him something to get excited about in school. I think some schools need baby steps with accelloration and enrichment because they don't have experience with Profoundly Gifted.

I'm happy to help with some ideas if you want more. I'm new at all this. There are probally more experinced people here for advice.

Iowa Acceleration Scale? what's that all about?

PDF Here.

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/DocumentManagement/DocumentDownload.aspx?DocumentID=13983

Read the links. In a nutshell, the school here uses the IAS to determine whether or not your child is a good candidate for grade or subject level acceleration. It was used for both my children (both were accelerated 1 grade level). I would give it high marks for being comprehensive. It isn't a test given to your child, but a questionnaire completed by your child's teacher, you, school psch etc, whoever your team is in this issue, and you all come together for about an hour or two and go through the booklet and score your child on topics from 1 to 4 I believe (may be 1 to 5). Higher scores = higher likelihood of acceleration success.

Familiarized? I may have memorized "A Nation Deceived"!

I will likely have order my own copy of the IAS, as our district does not seem to have it (but they are looking).

The district administered the WISC & WJ:
He's @ >99.9 across the board on WJ-III (160-175 on broad scores)
He's @ >99.9 on WISC-IV (>175 Verbal and >160 FSIQ)

He scored 90% on the end-of-year 4th grade math test, and 75% on the end-of-year 5th grade math test. Both were taken at start of 4th to justify subject acceleration into 5th.

Spelling & reading are comfortably off the charts, so I have no concerns about testing there.

For Science -- it's a rehash of last year (same text)

And for SS, while he might not know the material now, I question the necessity of 180 days to learn it... or to hold him back in general because he's yet to write the much-vaunted 12-page report on his home state.

I just got off the phone with one of the district psychologists and he said that while most likely a candidate for a grade skip, the problem will resurface in short order, in that he'll quickly exhaust the curriculum or be bored with the pace of instruction.

The folks at the district want very much to help, but have no real suggestions -- no real plan, so right now it is "leave things as they are." This is where I think that Davidson could be a big help (if accepted), but, again, that seems like an eternity of waiting.

Argghhh.

Yikes! It sounds like he is a candidate for radical acceleration. If you need to leave him in PS (homeschooling isn't an option), I'd advocate for a grade skip right now and then probably another a year or so down the line.

Yup... already got this push back!
"But we just started the year!" And I said, "Yeah, but we're 1/10th the way through it already!"

I've looked ahead @ the other subjects and just don't see planting him on his buttocks for 180 days to get to something that might be challenging at the end of the year.

Realistically, this is year three of an ongoing conversation. And this year is starting out exactly like the others. I began this current "round of talks" back in May when he did very well on a verbal test at school. [I'd say "blew the lid off it," but this isn't the brag thread ]

And then... and then... and then... it's next year. And nothing's been done. Again.

Sounds like you've answered your own question

My question to you is, why not get started? I don't think Davidson has a magic wand...

He'll be eight within a month. So technically, he's only one year ahead, as our state has a December cut-off for starting K.

Most kids in his class though, are turning 9 & 10... and a couple will be 11 this year.

He takes piano lessons outside of school (3 yrs), but they wouldn't let him join the school band until 5th.

I like the idea about foreign language. I'll bet there's something on-line for that.

I really don't care what classroom he's in as long as he gets to a.) be challenged, and b.) move forward at an acceptable pace.

It's not like I'm asking for the moon & the stars here... or at least I don't think so.

Have you considered the fact that with all the scores you menetioned on this and other posts, your son may not fit into any public school class? They may not move fast enough or be broad enought to meet his needs, in that the school psychologist is probably correct. My DD doesn't have scores that high and without gifted legislation in our state our school district finally said they just can't meet her needs in most subjects. (They hold fast to chronologic age and aren't going to move on that while this superintendant remains.)

I know you mentioned homeschooling wouldn't work for your family, are there any other options in your area?

Bottom line is I don't wanna get them all twisted-off.

They honestly don't know what to do... and some admit that openly. Of course, I gots me some idears, but -- in their eyes -- what could I possibly know? I'm just a parent.

My hope is that the Davidson Group will be able to bring a more objective set of recommendations into the school, or at least have suggestions -- based on their research -- as to what sort of acceleration works best for kids like mine.

Yes. I'm hearing this already from people at the district and a private doctor. The more I poke around, I see that we'd be facing a pretty hefty move to find a campus that is well-suited. But such a move would not be wise for us in this economy. I really don't want him learning all about "tent cities" through immersion.

Only a private school with far fewer resources.

One reason I'm wanting to stick it out here is that unlike many of the stories I read about, I believe that the school & district genuinely want to help. The teacher, well, he'll come around in time -- but everyone has been fantastic. And that's one heck of a good starting point.

I know there's a solution in here somewhere... I just gotta turn over some more rocks.

Well, you can do some research yourself to start things off...maybe you already have?

Miraca Gross' book Exceptionally Gifted Children comes to mind.

What about an "I know you want to help, so let's work together and figure this thing out" approach. You show them some studies you've found supporting acceleration and showing (as in the Gross study) that not accelerating is usually not a good option in these situations.

Emphasize that doing nothing is a choice for the status quo. It is not a "safe" option and it is currently not a viable option. Doing nothing because one grade skip may not be enough down the road doesn't really make sense. You need to find an appropriate placement now for your son's current needs. His future needs will be assessed and addressed in the future.

I don't think they can fault you for being a concerned, involved parent. Isn't what they're always saying they want? For parents to value education?

Later on, (if/when Davidson comes into play), they will be able to back up what you've been saying all along. Won't that increase your credibility?

On my shelf now after learning about it here.

I've got the diplomacy down pat. But I was too passive in earlier meetings & also didn't have these test scores banging around in my head -- so I just didn't understand the scope.

This year, I've added some urgency to the diplomacy. I think this is what got the jump to self-paced math.

I took in the Gross study, as well as "A Nation Deceived," but that was overkill -- "just too many words."

I started down this road last week. But I don't think I've sufficiently wrapped my mind around that argument to be convincing. And without them reading the studies that back it up, I just sound like a worry-wart parent.

THEN they said, "Well, you know, he's not even the top in his class. There are kids who are doing better in some subjects."

AND, "He's making mistakes on easy stuff that he should know."

At this point I could feel the blood boiling and knew that my diplomacy was about to depart.

I think that could be a plus... but for the opposite reason I'm left hesitant to push. What if the DYS advocate -- or someone else who has professional, hands-on experience -- comes back & says, "Why in the heck did you do THAT?" Ouch. (This part gets me trapped into endlessly over-thinking the what-ifs.)

Whether or not our family is able to work with DYS, something has to be done, that much is clear.

But after reading the thoughtful suggestions here, it's clear that waiting four+ weeks to maybe get help from DYS would be time wasted. (Especially knowing that we'll still be multiple weeks away from anything at that point anyhow.)

At least by starting now, the proverbial ball will be rolling... and conversations taking place. I was able to get math taken care of in just a couple of weeks, so maybe one chunk at a time.

Ok. Well, now you know how far their willingness to help extends in the direction of reading studies...

I think you can comfort yourself with the fact that you have already gotten the self-paced reading and math, right? So you are not doing nothing. I think you can keep doing what you are doing, advocating, providing them with information...maybe a midyear skip could happen after winter break. Think of the subject accelerations as getting his feet wet in fifth grade. Since they are core subjects, it will certainly support your position that your DS is able to handle 5th grade.

I know those remarks about not being perfect are annoying! And I don't recall either of those criteria as being part of the IAS

I remember a conversation with my DS' teacher last year where I was trying to explain to her that he is a perfectionist. Her reply to that was, "Well, he's not perfect!"

All kids make mistakes. Perfection is not required of anyone else in order to move to the next grade! You are not trying to raise a child who never makes a mistake, you are trying to give him the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from them.

School administrators are fond of telling us that school is about more than academics. When they say things like that, agree with them! Your child needs to learn important life lessons that are being denied to him when he is underchallenged.

Those 4 weeks of waiting can be a killer...I made mine worse by sending in our application 2 weeks earlier than the cutoff!

I couldn't wait for the Davidson answer. Especially after being told in the GIEP meeting that DS could possibly thrive elsewhere. I made the leap to quit my job, take him out of school and start cyberschool before hearing from Davidson. This was all at the end of the school year, so everyone really thought I was a nut for not letting DS finish out the year. In my mind, those were 2 months of him sitting idle, of having extra "enrichment" math work sent home nightly...I wanted to get the ball rolling with cyberschool. I figured if things didn't work out, we could head back to the local district since we at least had the GIEP under our belt.

We received our DYS acceptance shortly after we started cybering. I felt like it was a sign that I made the right decision. I'm more confident if we happen to return to the local district, with the GIEP and the backing of Davidson if need be. I had to do what I felt was right at the time. I'm one of those "life is too short" people, and I couldn't leave him in an environment that I knew was taking away his love of learning.

FWIW, this is what the school did for my DS after testing, talking, meeting, etc....

DSthen8 started out in 3rd, but going to 4th for reading (school wide ability grouping for reading). Once all testing was completed and the meetings were had, it was decided that he would do academics with the same 4th grade teacher, but stay with 3rd grade class for lunch, recess, field trips, things of that nature. The school didn't want to totally disrupt the social aspect as he'd made friends and seemed to just start fitting in a little better (we had moved that year). He did just fine in 4th socially, too, but he'd been in 3rd through the identification process which was about half the year.

At the end of the year, his report card showed promotion to 5th and reflected completion of 3rd/4th simultaneously. Everyone was in agreement and it really seemed to be a very smooth transition. Don't know if it'll help or not, but just another option to present maybe???

Good luck to you.

I think the way the child feels about school is very significant. If you move him up a grade it sounds like that may not be enough.
Here's one suggestion for improvement. Find him something to do that he can be excited about at school. My DS did a few independent stuies all on his own last year. They gave him no guidelines and let him run with it. He told the gifted teacher what he did to learn read some books, made a diaroma, watched a movie on Brain Pop, made a quiz for the class and then he made a presentation to the class and gave out the quiz.

His teacher could also give him some breaks from the reviewing and then he could do alternate work that is related to what the class is doing.

Here is an example: at Math time if done early let him do sudoko Math puzzle or something else he likes.

I can feel your concern. Your son sounds much more advance than mine. I have read in some books that sometimes a little change can go along way to help a childs attitude about school when they don't feel challenge enough. Also explain to him why the teacher needs to repeat so much for the other children. I think patience come from more understanding others.

I hope you get some results with your school. When I first got our test results the tester just casual mentioned my DS abilitites and I totally freaked out that whole week. I wish you peace with this. Good luck

Great post. For all these reasons I'm thankful that, thus far, the one grade skip seems to have been just enough to keep DS engaged in school, even if he's not *fully* utilizing/realizing what he can do. He seems infinitely happier and that's OK with me.

Wow. What an incredible outpouring of thoughtful advice. I spent quite a bit of time contemplating our situation, and considering the experiences of others here along with some wonderfully insightful private messages, I'm feeling more confident about pushing forward. I think.

I took my son out for dinner last night and brushed gently on these topics amidst his excitement about various goings on. After all, he IS kind of the focus in all this, right?

One underlying concern for me is that he is happy where he is. He's not clamoring for a change one way or the other, and really hasn't given it much thought (that he's shared, anyhow).

He is very pleased with the ability to now work at his own pace in math, even though it will be more rigorous than following the classroom curriculum. And "reading" has always worked this way (self-paced) at his school, so that was nothing new to him.

We also reviewed his language arts book today and I asked if he'd like to do this on his own (@ school, like math) and he seemed interested, although probably didn't really give a whit either way. (I mean, seriously, WHO CARES about predicates, right?)

Science, though, is the one subject that is really near & dear to his heart. And he's already mentioned -- on his own -- that he's not happy doing everything over again this year. So that's one area I've definitely got to explore.

We both laughed about spelling... he got another 100% on his recent pre-test. I asked him if he'd like harder lists and he joked that they'd have to get out the high-school list before he'd be scared. But he said he also likes the "easy A+" each week. (Funny, but also a troubling sign in my book. I don't want him addicted to the "easy A+" in school.)

-- -- -- --

We don't allow the "B-Word" in our house, as it is always accompanied by long, drawn-out whining, "I'm soooooo booooooooored!!!" And we've had the talk in relation to school work since he was young, explaining that he will often be asked to do things that he already knows how to do, and that he will often finish ahead of the other students -- AND -- that he's not allowed to complain about it, as this is disrespectful to the teacher. (And it's not particularly polite to the other students, either.) He's allowed to ask for other work/projects when he's done, or he can ask to read -- he just can't whine to his teacher or make a big production out of it.

With that said, the teacher pointed out to me, "Well he doesn't complain about the work being too easy!" Dang. So much for that exercise in discretion.

He did, however, use the "b-word" for the first time a week or so ago, before he shifted to his own math program. The teacher asked him directly if he had a problem with his math worksheet (because DS was goofing around) and DS answered honestly, "It's boring."

-- -- -- --

It'd be so easy to plant all these thoughts in his head -- or to underscore & support those he may already harbor -- but so far, he's not soured about the level of his work. This leaves me in the difficult position of wanting/needing to request these various curriculum changes based largely on the fact that "I know what's best for my child."

I know the work is too easy for him. I know he's not exerting ANY effort (other than with handwriting) to get his grades. And I know that this is not a good thing.

But he doesn't really know any different. He doesn't come home complaining about how easy stuff is... or begging for harder work... or anything like that. And I don't want to let it get to that point before I make changes on his behalf. So I suppose I'm feeling a little guilty here, but yet I firmly believe it is my job. (I also put broccoli on his dinner plate -- not because he asks for it, but because I know it is good for him. Fair analogy?)

So when it comes around to skipping a grade, everything I've read says he's got to be on board with the whole idea. I say, however, that at his age, it is more at my discretion (& the school's) than his. If I ask him, "Ya wanna skip to 5th?" he'll say "Heck NO!" But with no reason other than he doesn't really like change when the change comes from his evil father. But if it (ostensibly) comes from the school as, "We'd like you to start in 5th grade this winter," he'd be fine with it, and would have no problems.

I saw this repeated time & time again in his classroom. If I were to suggest that he write five paragraphs instead of the two or three assigned by his teacher each week, he'd kill me in my sleep. But when the challenge comes from his teacher, he's all over it and surpasses expectations EVERY TIME. This same scenario has played out so many times, it's silly. If Dad requests X, he's the devil; if the teacher asks for the same -- AWESOME!

-- -- -- --

Gratified3 makes some superb comments regarding the social/emotional/practical aspects of skipping that really take me back in my own thinking by several steps. Is grade placement the issue? Or is it really the pacing -- irrespective of grade?

He could skip to 5th... and within a couple/few months, he'll be back in the same pickle. Spelling/reading/language arts still wouldn't be anywhere close to his abilities and he'll still be ready for pre-algebra by February at the latest. It'd be no different in 6th: same academic issues, just with much bigger kids.

Do I want to send an 8yo to 7th grade? Or 10th? I'd have to say no. Not without his explicit involvement and agreement -- that's just too much broccoli for me to put on his plate without him asking.

Hmmmm. Gotta make some more calls. A big thanks to all for helping me focus my thoughts.

well I think you are just Dandy and you have a lot of good ideas for your son. Maybe he can do an science related independent study so he can go ahead of the class in science and have something to get excited about at school. Good luck. I have the feeling we are going to be talking about broccoli again soon. LOL

This was one of the biggest reasons we went ahead with the grade skip. DS had not experienced failing and the growth that can come from that. He still hasn't 'failed' anything, but I do see that he's working a little harder to keep getting those As, even though he wouldn't admit it. One of our biggest fears was that when he did finally encounter something that wasn't easy, he wouldn't have any idea what to do, how to work through it, how to do his best and still only get a <gasp> B or C.

I'm sure you'll make the best decision for your DS.

I do think he'll be in a pickle - but certainly not the SAME pickle...when it comes to readiness level, there are levels:
Hard
Somewhat hard
a little bit hard
easy, but at least interesting - I call this one 'edutainment.'
easy, not at all interesting
snoozaloozing easy
wanna scream easy
wanna destroy the school OR I'm totally humiliated easy

We've been down on those lower rungs of the readiness levels, and even a few steps in the right direction make a big difference. I like to say that after the summer birthday + single grade skip, DS13 has all the problems 'regular gifted kids' have - and while that is dissapointing, it's also a relief!

I say don't worry about if a change is 'enough' but just keep looking at the situation and figuring out what would help him 'learn how to learn' now. I do know a wildly PG kid who kept his base grade at a public school, with grade subject accelerations in everything, and only early college in his favorite subject, and it worked well for that child. If your public school is willing to work with you - take them up on their offer. It doesn't have to be perfect, just 'good enough.'

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Yup on the "good enough." I get lost in over-thinking. I'm not playing chess -- I don't have to try solving everything several moves ahead. (Speaking theoretically, 'cause I can't do it in chess, either.)

I had a nice conversation with a GT-ed specialist working with our school. She's going to explore the grade-skip, because that's what she thinks would be the best "initial" move, and then working with subject acceleration on top of that (keeping on-line math for now). It was a promising conversation... finally.

This conversation helped considerably.

(Please excuse the partial duplicate posting here... wanted to tie up the loose end I left here. When reading through all the archives, I hate getting to the end of a long discussion where the resolution is never posted.)

After a very productive meeting with the school this week, we've got a real plan!

The gist of the plan is that we will select one or two courses for DS to take in 5th grade classroom (to "test-drive the environment") and continue with on-line instruction -- IN CLASS! -- for Math & probably Language Arts. (School to pick up EPGY tab!!)

If things go well for the remainder of the 1st half of the year, he will be allowed to move to 5th full-time, while continuing any on-line work he is doing. The teacher & principal both agreed that the 5th grade is a terrific bunch of kids in every respect -- one of the best groups they've had in awhile.

We all came away with a common understanding that nothing is set in stone, and that flexibility is paramount in finding the best fit for DS.

What an unbelievable relief.

thats great news! flexability AND a great bunch of kids. Yippee!

Awesome Dandy!!!! It's such a breath of fresh air to have a supportive school - even when there are still molehills to climb over! So many parents of GT have to climb mountains instead!

Yeah!!!!

Wow, we just went through that as well. I had posted before about how DS5 told me on the second day of school that he asked the teacher for something harder and she printed out double and triple digit multiplication and addition, but she couldn't find addition. Well guess what? we went to his meeting yesterday and the teacher says that never happened and DS5 has never asked for harder work. I was shocked and then got really sad about it. My guess is he was imagining what he would have liked to do. That's really sad that he felt stuck and couldn't do it. We talked about a plan for him to put letters on the top of his page to indicate how he feels about work (like TE = too easy, TH = too hard, and GMM = give me more). That way he doesn't have to say it out loud and be disrespectful and stand out any more than he does. We will see how that works or if they use it. Hopefully so.

It's tough about skipping. DS5 skipped K, but since he is way above 2nd grade curriculum they still aren't sure what to do. His school only goes up to 2nd. So they are going to attempt that he does math and reading (and maybe even science hopefully) individually at his own pace. Not sure how long they will do this for and I feel another grade skip may have to happen...but I have been trying to avoid it if not necessary because while it brings him a little closer, he still has to work individually.

Oops, just read your latest post. Sounds like a great plan!

Shellym i love ur system ..th.te.gmm great idea for all students actually.

OK, Grinity, I thought this was some more of your creative spelling and it was just beyond me! I searched back to find Shellymos's post, and I agree with you - what a great idea. I'm going to steal it for our conference meeting....

I like it as well! We're to meet back in about 4 weeks to discuss DS's progress in 1st. And hopefully I can get him to indicate how the work is with this!

I can't take credit for the system. It was actually a recommendation of the psychologist that we brought with us to the meeting, and I thought it was a great idea.

Yes, you take the credit shellymos, you recognized it and brought it here, so credit-accept away!