Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Parenting versus GTness

Hey everyone. I've got a few things on my mind, so hopefully over this holiday weekend I'll start getting my thoughts out again.

For I while I've wondered about how much what we're seeing is really due to DS's ability and how much is due to the environment. I know that this has been mentioned before in some threads. I'm just wondering a little bit about our specific case and if we're potentially creating more of a problem by being enthusiastic at home about certain topics.

When we got DS tested on the SB5 the score came back GT, but at the lower end of the spectrum. The evaluator did tell us that this wasn't the right test for our child and that he'd do better with the WISC. Achievement scores were much higher. Some of that was just due to being an early reader (which can skew reading achievement scores). Since our tester wasn't specifically trained with testing gifted kids, we didn't get all of the sub-tests that we would have liked. We just got some generalizations such as "in some vertical pockets of knowledge he's thinking at the 5th grade level" (referring to math; he was pre-K at the time). The achievement scores were much higher than the IQ.

DS entered first grade last year (early entry, skipped K). I'd have to say that it was mixed results at best. The school did not see any of the same ability that we see. The teacher might have put him as "high average" if you will. Some of that is certainly due to the common misperception that high achieve equals high ability. We also has some behavioral issues that were thrown in to the mix for good measure which didn't leave us in a happy place academically. (It's possible to make an argument that this was aggravated by a mismatch with his daily work.) Since school has let out, we've definitely see a return to the kid who loves [insert subject of the month here] to at least 1 or 2 grade levels beyond what is typical.

So this is where we are right now: school is out and DS6 is currently enthralled with math again. Whenever he gets spare time, he's reading Murderous Math books. He does not get absolutely everything (mind you some concepts covered in the books I have to read a couple of times to follow), but generally he's getting the math. I'm tutoring him "unschooling" style... he's a quick learner. Some concepts and math techniques I do have to teach him, but he picks it up very quickly. He's very excited about it, which is why I have no problem tutoring on math and not having it feel anything like hot housing.

But how much of this is innate ability? How much are we bringing this on ourselves? This nags me from time to time. Are we creating more of a problem by teaching him advanced math that he wouldn't see until 5th grade (or higher!).

Opinions definitely appreciated.

We're still thinking about school options for this year and I'm going to be posting about that soon.

Thanks guys.

JB

He was "high average" as compared to kids older than he is? How is that not high ability?


I don't think so! You are feeding his interest...I don't see that as a problem.

JBDad,

You are in a very similar place to where i'm at with DS6. Whem my son came home from the circus with a desire to learn physics, my first inclination was to push the request aside. How on earth was I going to explain that he really wanted to learn this and I wasn't pushing? or hothousing? But in the end he got his wish, here's why....

Someone gave me this piece of advice and i've tried hard to stick to it as much as possible. Every child deserves an education best suited to their needs. It may not be the same education as the kid next door or down the block, that's ok. As long as your child is given the opportunity to get the best education for him, then as a parent you're doing everything you can.

That said, you need to follow your son's lead and not worry about what anyone says or what comes next. Just follow your gut and move forward one day at a time. You will never convince everyone that you are not secretly locking him in the closet and forcing math down his throat, so you can't worry about them. You just have to know in your head and your heart and your gut that you are giving your child the very best education you can.

And when you doubt, we're all here to support you.

Are you creating a problem?

Well, I guess you might be trading problems: exchanging under-stimuation for a kid way ahead of the curriculum.

But if he's happy, soaking it up fast and begging for more, then I think you have to believe you're doing the right thing, right?

I'm seeing it this way. In one setting, he's acting out somewhat, is not very happy, and is not enjoying learning much.
In the other setting, he is learning as fast as you can throw things at him, he's happy, behaving well, and seems more like himself.

Fair?

Then I think it's pretty clear which setting is creating the problem, isn't it?

Now, what you do with that understanding is a whole different matter. Lots of choices! No one right answer! But I simply can't accept that giving him the learning he craves, learning that makes him happy, is doing *anything* wrong.

In short, it's not you, it's him!

P.S. I think until you re-test, you can't put much faith in the IQ numbers you have. But then you know that I think that. I just felt like I should say it out loud again anyway.

Sounds like you're helping him work in his zone of proximal development. Unfortunately, there's a big mismatch between this and the level he's working at school. Since two wrongs don't make a right, I'd keep on teaching him advanced math.

I keep telling myself that "they" are just not right - I mean all the teachers and other parents (she says sounding a tad paranoid) who seem to think that learning is a potentially dangerous activity that has to be trickled out in carefully measured doses to prevent children being damaged somehow. I think that this is the root of my uneasiness about the education system - I want my children to be taught by people who feel that they have a world of wonder to share with children.

Your DS is obviously really caught up in what he's learning with you - if he wan't enjoying it I imagine you'd spot that pretty easily? Does it matter much if you call it GT or parenting? There's a universe out there to be known and your DS is soaking it up - I think you're right and *they're* wrong. (mm, paranoid again)

My DS6 only got a B in social studies this semester - ironically enough the "You Can Do It" program. For half a year he's been absorbing the unspoken (to him at least) but quite distinct message that actually he can't do it and shouldn't be trying.

JBDad,
We have similar thoughts going on here off and on. DD6 is an incredible reader, inquisitive and loves to learn informally through discussions at the breakfast table, or in the car, or in the bath, etc. DH and I feed these questions and love doing it, but when people start talking about how much we're pushing her and we should just let her be a kid and whatever else they can say to make us question what we're doing, we double guess ourselves.
But, as teachers, and scientists DH and I can not stop answering her questions - we love to see how her brain works and what she comes out with. We have noticed this summer that some of her best days have been when we've "played school." All this week, for example, we've been learning about ancient Greece. (lol I say we because I knew very little about it before the week started. ) She is making a book about the Greek alphabet, we had a Greek feast one night, she and DH made a Greek house and she wants to make clothes for her dolls.
Her school wouldn't show me what the NWEA test said her holes were because "we're afraid you'll go home and teach it all to her this summer." What they don't know is that she's been asking about the stuff she saw on the test that she doesn't know how to do, so we're still teaching her stuff that will fill in the holes without knowing the specifics.

So, after all of this rambling, I guess what I'm saying is that I think all of us on this board experience the same thing at some point in time, and all have to come to the realization that it is not our child rearing techniques, but our childrens' "parenting techniques" that makes us do what we do. ( if you think of it as them training us as much as we're training them.)

Thanks for the feedback! Hectic day today, but I hope to jump back on later in the day. A couple of follow up comments/thoughts I want to post. Have the make breakfast for the boys... (late start to the day today!)

JB

Kerry...have u tried contacting the MAP people directly? Shame on ur school. I used to think DS12 was weird because i was encouraging him. Turns out he was encouraging me! Basically u r who u r and so are ur kids. best wishes...grinity

Hi JBDad,

I see too issues in your post:

1) is it IQ or is it mostly environment?

and

2) is my afterschooling creating/causing/exacerbating issues at school?

I've wrestled with both of these questions. I often wondered if I had someone else's kid, and raised him the same, could he make the same leaps? I don't know. I do know that when DS was tested quite young, less than 4yrs old as part of a speech assessment, the psych noted that he already possessed abstract thought. I keep reading how variables are too abstract for 5-7yr olds! That I can't fathom.

As far as magnitude of IQness and testing...I do think it's important to have someone whose skilled in testing gifted kids do the testing. Also, I think testing closer to 7 might be more revealing for you. Regarding teachers, I saw a study where teachers more often pick the high-achievers as gifted (quiet, do the work quickly, etc) and the truly gifted as average or trouble-makers or class clown. It wasn't until my friend's son was half-way through K where he told the teacher "I know how to read already. Let me show you. Then pulled out a MTH book and started reading it to her." She was shocked. My boys would have NEVER EVER done that with a teacher. I don't think there is often the opportunity for kids to show what they know. WHen is a kid going to get the opportunity to show his/her extensive knowledge of space, black holes, multiplication, division, fractions in a regular K,1st grade classroom? Sure it happens in some, but i don't think it's the norm.

Also, and we had this discussion in another thread.....I often wonder if a grade skip would have done it for my son...I felt, in the end, he needed different ... different pace, less drill, more discussion. So the grade skip might not float your son's boat. It might not be enough content-wise, interest, pace, or depth.

I too would see the return of my inquisitive happy boy in the summer! BUt then the problem would get compounded by teaching him things in the summer.

To really lay on the guilt, I was talking to DSthenalmost 8 I think about his problems with school. His reply? "Well, mommy, you taught me everything already." AARRGGHH Nail in heart. So once I recovered I asked him, "Well, were you ready for those things at 6yrs old?" "Yes." "Did you ask me to teach you that at 6yrs old?" "Yes," "Well, what would have had me do? Refuse to teach you? If you're hungry, I feed you ...be it food or knowledge." He totally understood and said he wasn't blaming me lol but you know kids tend to get to the point lol. And most of the time, he made it on his own. I recall back when he was 4ish, driving in the car, and she said "Mommy, guess what! 3+4=7 and 4+3=7, it works both ways, isn't that cool!" And then a few weeks later while doing a dinosaur puzzle I off-handedly said "Oh there's 8 in this row, And 8 in this row. Each row has 8 pieces. So then he counted the rows. Oh so two 8s make 16. I said, "yes, 8x2=16." that was the end of the it...nothing else followed. Then a few weeks or months later, he started giving me multiplication problems "is 2x3=6?" "yes honey" So after a few of those I asked "What's 2x0" he said "noney" I said, "what's noney" He said, "WHen it looks like zero." I can't remember how old but it was before kindergarten. LOL now that probably isn't so advanced on this board now that I re-read it lol but I was shocked at the time given he had no formal instruction.

OK, I mention that long winded story to ask the question, "HOW do you stop learning like that?????" You can't. Well, I guess I could have refused to answer his question about "is 2x3=6?" but he already knew the answers.

So anyhow, people counseled me against teaching him any more math. So I didn't. He's now a rising 4th grader and that decision still haunts me to this day. He learned to hate math at school and thinks math is boring. And after not being challenged, if I do give him the challenge he craves in math, he shuts down...it's getting better after a year of HSing but it was a struggle. So I did what others recommended and we did science and physics instead of typical elementary stuff....but that only delays the problems. Now being advanced in science wasn't an issue for him as he loved being the go-to guy in the classroom and sharing his knowledge. For some reason, his nemesis was math...it was always math. If he wasn't happy w/ math at school, the whole day was ruined. that's why it's so sad for me to see him hating math now. I've been quickly trying to fill in the fundamental skills he needs but finds boring now b/c he should have done it 2yrs ago in his mind.

OH and regarding the SBV...I know a little boy who scored just barely gifted on that....this kid is so far from barely gifted it ain't funny...scored 99.9th on WJIII across the board just about if I recall correctly. The test was done at a university but a student and not someone skilled in testing gifted kids. He was 5 at the time. He's now 7 and the gap only widens. The same with another boy who also tested at 5 on the SBV. Both are most certainly HG+++.

Anyhow, as you can see, I've wrestled w/ this for quite some time but I'll stop here as I doubt anyone will make it to the end anyhow.

Wow. Typing on my iPhone so this will be short. But, yeah you captured it precisely.

JB

I could have written your post, JB! The only exception we have is that DS6's 1st grade teacher knew precisely where he was at and loved him for it and did her best to challenge him. If he was less than challenged it was only because certain of the school's systems still don't let her cater to a kid like him, and because he didn't always want to be challenged and appear different from the rest of the kids.

I think we just have to do the best we can with these guys and the rest of the world be damned. They don't know OUR kids.

This line in one of the replies just confounds me:

God, we can't possibly have parents TEACHING kids things they don't know--what would the world come to if that happened? Knowledge would run rampant in the streets and the cities would be overrun with education. Heaven forbid.

<SNORT!>

Well-played, Nautigal!

Hi JB,
A couple of thoughts based on our experiences.... I have 2 children. My DD 9 has not been grade accelerated, but has a late July b-day and has always been among the youngest in her class. We have not gone the IQ route (although I sometimes think that was a mistake) so I can't provide a score, but I am (usually )confident in our assessment of her abilities for multiple reasons--not the least of which is that she was always clustered with "top" learners in her grade, most of whom were on the other side of the enrollment deadline, and therefore nearly a year ahead of her chronologically. All of them were well above grade level in reading and math. Despite having exhausted the district's elementary reading assessment in kindergarten, we have listened to an endless stream of minimizing comments suggesting that she isn't really "that unusual". Her school behaviors are compliant, but very disorganized and absent minded. She is not whipping through her work without error and becomes bored quickly with repetition.

She will tell me that "after 4 problems it's kind of hard to keep my mind on it. I start thinking about other things".

Her teacher will tell me, "Oh, I have harder work for her, but she can't finish the work she has, so she doesn't get to it like the other children".

Despite never finishing her work, she still took a state math assessment without a single error (and according to her, roughly 30 minutes left per section to sit and do nothing). Another family I know was told that their child had some strengths, but also some "holes", so didn't really need to be accelerated. The mentality of too many educators is to disprove high ability rather than to support it.

What I have found is this: over the past few years we have supported our daughter's interests in whichever directions they have taken us. It has taken awhile for her test taking skills/focus to catch up with her ability, but finally she is providing us with examples the school can't easily dismiss. Highly able children are still children. They aren't all eager to produce perfect work--especially when it's boring. When my DD was 6, it would take 30 minutes to copy her spelling words for homework (words like: friend, weather, etc.). Meanwhile her favorite game was "spelling bee"--during which she would beg us to give her words and would joyfully give us the spelling of "hydraulic" or "pyschology" or "tarantula".

This year, I was told that my DD9 couldn't do 3 digit subtraction. She wrote down the answers to 20 homework problems while I ran in and picked up subs for dinner (approximately 5 minutes) without making another mark on her paper. When I pointed to the directions (show your work), she sighed and spent the next *40 minutes* trying to go back and put her work on the paper. In the process of doing that, she got confused and changed several previously accurate answers. It's like asking someone with a highly accurate jump shot to slow it down into incremental motions. When the flow is interrupted/interfered with, the fluidity is lost. The shot will still go in at times, but far less often and with far less satisfaction.

Don't mistake the teacher's assessment of your DS's engagement and accuracy on work below his level for an accurate assessment of your child's ability. Keep giving him what he asks for. Eventually it will come together in a way that will be difficult for the school to ignore. In the meantime, you might want to save things that your DS does at home, or keep a journal. Be sure to make notes like, "DS asked me to show him....after he..." or "Suddenly DS is interested in __________. He asked me to _________"; This is a sample of the _______DS did after _______. He spent _________ minutes/hours working on it without stopping to ask for assistance". etc...

It sounds like you're doing a great job honoring your child's thirst for new ideas and skills. Don't let the school make you doubt yourself.

Nicely put Nautigal.

Kerry, you probably won't have much luck getting information from NWEA.
http://www.nwea.org/support/details.aspx?content=930

The flip side of FERPA is that it also gives you the right to review your child's records including testing. I'm surprised the school turned down your request. That seems to go against FERPA. Glad to hear she's not letting that stop her!

JBDad, I've had similar concerns about teaching GS9 things after school and on the weekends. One funny event spawned by this, his teacher was a bit exasperated after he once again said, "I know that, my grandma already taught me." She said, "Is there anything you've learned at school this year?" He said, "No, not really." haha, but I think he said it very innocently and truthfully because he didn't get in trouble!

This year, I pretty much came to accept I would be teaching him after school & weekends, and he would get increasingly further ahead of his classmates. But what is the alternative, let him veg out on TV & video games 5 hours/day, all day on weekends?

BTW, whoever posted about the 6 yr old daughter doing Greek this week, if she's still into it long term, let's get acquainted in 20 years! GS9 is loving his Greek & Roman history & mythology books!

I am sure if she was having problems and scoring too low they would have no problem telling you what areas you need to work on at home.

Mommy, how do you add 1,579 plus 2,596?
Oh I 'm sorry honey I can't teach you that until 3rd grade, would you like to play patty-cake instead?

So, let me see if I understand this idea correctly.

Educators (and many, many others) are in near-universal agreement that parental involvement with a child's education is very important --- nay, critical! --- to that child's success in school.

Unless, of course, Mom and/or Dad is teaching the kid something that hasn't been covered yet. In too many cases, this practice is somehow perceived as a bad thing and is wrong. If this weren't the case, why do we agonize over letting our kids do what they can do?

Did I get this right? Can someone explain this to me?

Val

Yeah, it pretty much demolishes the notion that the school is there for your child's education. What they're telling you is that they are there to make sure your child learns precisely and only what they want him to learn, which does not include how to think or how to learn anything else on his own.

This reminds me of a story my mother told about my brother's teacher in Kindergarten (California, 1960's). She found out that he already knew how to read, and told my mother that she shouldn't have taught him to read because "now he's going to have to unlearn everything and start over the way we do it here." Needless to say, he didn't have that teacher anymore after that remark.

I had an experience in college that was related in a way. It was a World Geography class, I believe, and I had continually challenged answers on tests that were marked wrong but were really correct. The professor always changed the answer key to match my challenges, and corrected my grades on the tests, but one time he just blew me away when I asked about some questions. He said he wasn't changing any more answers on the key, and he was "tired of carrying me". Excuse me, I had a 4.0 GPA and was running with a solid A in that class as well, so what the hell? It's not MY fault the answer key was wrong and I was right, and if the point was to learn the material, the right answers should matter and I should get the grade I deserved! But that showed me that the point was not to learn the material or get an education, but just not to make waves and make sure the staff got paid for being there.

That's what the school in question in this thread is about--being there and not stirring things up. They're lucky they don't have me.

But is the NWEA a grade level assessment? If so, and you miss things on it, shouldn't those areas be shored up?

NWEA MAP are different from grade level assessments like the Stanford Achievement Test. NWEA MAP are computerized tests which are adaptive. They're designed to target a student's academic performance by adjusting the difficulty of the questions. If a student keeps answering questions correctly, they keep getting harder questions.

The child's RIT Score is supposed to be independent of grade level, although ceiling factors seem to come into play with young gifted children taking the MAP for Primary grades and older gifted children taking standard MAP.

The beauty of MAP is it can make visible the needs of children who are performing significantly below or above grade level. This information is essentially invisible with standard grade level tests.

Ideally, a school would use this information to teach a child what he's ready to learn next. At the very least, they should share this information with parents so they can teach the child what he's ready to learn. Unfortunately, neither of these is a given.

Ah yes, I learned of the MAP test here and will try a local school district to have my son take it next year. I confused NWEA with another grade level assessment. Thanks for the clarification!

Dazey

In the nature vs. nurture debate, I say, Does it really matter? Your son is truly gifted, advanced beyond his years - does it matter how he got there? Just because the school didn't "see" his gifts doesn't mean they aren't there, or that you created them in some artificial way. So it wasn't a great year? Very soon, he'll be starting again, with another chance, and maybe this year will be different.

I used to worry that each year my kids would have to start over and "prove" themselves to a new set of teachers. Now I know, they don't have to prove anything. They are gifted, engaging and wonderful, with or without validation from anyone.

I would agree that teaching advanced concepts can backfire, as it did in our DD's case and will likely happen to DS. We afterschooled math to the point where she will soon be 2 years ahead of her already accelerated class. She is bored, and we are frustrated at our failure to be able to accelerate her further. The school said No, they have had negative experiences with further acceleration and won't allow it. So, DD daydreams during math class and teaches her friends new concepts when they don't understand. I don't regret what we've done, and we will probably do the same for DS in a year or two.

Don't give up, JB. A new year is a few weeks away, and hopefully your wonderful DS will have a better year.