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I hope you can all help me! This is my 10 year old daughter, in 5th grade. I finally got the school to test her and may have the opportunity to ask for accommodations or entry into gifted program (with accommodations?) but need advice!

Her performance is very uneven on school tests...from gettin 100 to sometimes a score in the 70s. She misses details and sometimes has trouble understand certain math concepts, depending on the way they are explained. She is very verbal and an excellent writer.

WISC IV scores:

Verbal Comprehension 134
Similarities 14
Vocabulary 15
Comprehension 18

Perceptual Reasoning 104
Block Design 11
Picture Concepts 7
Matrix Reasoning 14

Working Memory 135
Digit Span 19
Letter-Number Sequencing 13

Processing Speed 106
Coding 12
Symbol Search 10

Full Scale IQ 125 (but noted that too much scatter to really measure)

Other notes:

1. She is excellent socially. NLD/Aspergers not indicated.

2. She performs "average" in district-wide math testing, but in the 99th
percentile on all subtests given (including numerical operations and mathematics reasoning) on the WIAT. However, her verbal and non-verbal OLSAT scores were 118 and 114 respectively, which is why she did not make it into the gifted program.

3. She is observed to frustrate easily when not getting a concept right
away (such as in math). Also, she often misses details during tests, and sometimes doesn't hear when assignments are given.

4. The Conners Continuous Performance Test was given. There was a
91.64% change that no significant, clinical attention problem exists. However,
of the 12 overall measures, four placed in the mildly atypical range, suggesting
impulsivity and inattentiveness. It was also noted that response style was
different from a typical respondent in the norm group in that the child
reponded more often. REaction time was fast, but performance was below-
average in the area of discriminating targets from one another, which
(according to the tester) suggests impulsivity. Her performance overall was
described as "fast and inaccurate".

Can anyone help me figure out where to go from here?

Thank you!!

Hi Eden,
I can't answer your question but this information may help.

This link says a 20 point VCI-PRI discrepancy should raise some red flags.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Eg...i=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

Has she had her eyes checked recently?

Good point eema. The PRI scatter is unusually large (7 point difference between Matrix Reasoning and Picture Concepts). If the difference is greater than 5 points, it cannot be interpreted as a single ability.

P.S. An out of the box gifted child? See last page 2E WISC IV Patterns and Behaviors.

http://www.sciencedestinations.org/images/2009symposium-Maxwell.pdf

Thank you very much. Now...what can I do to help my child? The school is saying she is just fine. They don't think the scatter is a problem because everything is at least average!

The high WIAT scores would also support their assertion that there's no problem. I'd probably advocate for entry into the gifted program using this NAGC position statement.

http://www.nagc.org/index.aspx?id=2455
Even though she doesn't have NLD, maybe some of the visual spatial modifications would help:
Rely heavily on the student's verbal and analytic strengths
Model verbal mediation of nonverbal information while teaching the learner how to use this strength
Simple layouts on assignments/test
Use graph paper to organize work
Check for understanding
Make directions/expectations clear and simple
Verbally teach (talk self through tasks)

Hi Eden,
I have an 11yr old in a 5th grade GT program with a HUGE gap in the VCI and PRI scores (45 points). (Coding score of 5!, check out the thread on low processing speed on this forum.) He tested into the program in 2nd grade based on CoGAT and Peabody tests, which I realize was fortunate because his overall score when we tested in 3rd grade was also about 125 and the program requires 130 if entrance is based on IQ scores. He ABSOLUTELY belongs in the GT program. I think he would have completey shut down and given up at school if he were still in the regular classroom.

Did you receive any written comments from the tester that would help you to explain the situation to the schools? Our commentary included the fact that the overall score is not reliable, and discussed the frustration involved in living with a brain that has such a large discrepancy in scores.

Our DS11 also can exhibit very uneven performance in testing, which is very frustrating for teachers because they interpret this as not trying. He has been diagnosed as having the inattentive type of ADHD, (which can vary from day to day and influence all kinds of scores) but I think his bigger challenges are the in the wide gap between the scores.

The modifications suggested by inky are excellent. I would add modifying the amount of written output, or allowing work to be dictated if her writing speed is frustrating her at all.

Keep us posted!

Thank you so much!

Here's my next question. Right now, for sixth grade, she has been placed in a "one level accelerated" math program but not in pre-algebra, which is the two level accelerated program that frankly, all the kids headed for the "big leagues" are in. I am wondering if we should push for her to be in pre-alegbra. On the one hand, I don't want to frustrate her, but on the other hand, the basic maths (everything up to pre-algebra) are taught using the Chicago Math (Everyday Math) program which is a terrible method of teaching for her and I'd just like to get her out of there. Her WIAT scores would indicate her math skills are strong, but her performance on math tests in school has been uneven, and then there is the PRI score. However, if she doesn't have pre-alebra next year, she is on track to have it the following year anyway, and her issues will always be her issues.

I'm wondering if "pre-algebra with accomodations" is what is appropriate, but if so, what would those accomodations be?

Thank you again!!

I'd probably ask for the pre-algebra with accommodations and work to ensure math fluency this summer on the places she's been uneven.
Some things to consider are:
Will you be able to help her with more thorough explanations after school if she needs it?
Do you think the teacher will be a good fit?
She'll have geometry sooner but I'm inclined to think strong verbal skills will help her enough.
She may like the Khan Academy videos on youtube since there is lots of verbal explanation of the math.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=khanacademy&view=playlists

Reading this(and understanding she doesn't have Aspergers or NLD), one accommodation could be to present problems verbally.
http://books.google.com/books?id=6t...i=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5

Thank you inky! It's probably hard to get a teacher to understand what "use verbal explanations" means when it comes to math.

I was going to suggest, as Benny did, to check into ADD as well. In girls, you won't always get the hyperactive body, but the mind tends to scatter. Not paying attention to details (taking a test before reading the directions), being easily frustrated and not hearing can also be a sign... if her hearing has been recently checked, and it's fine, she may be "tuning out" things due to daydreaming or having that "scattered" brain.

I'm just coming back to this thread now. I'm so frustrated. They say my daughter is fine. They will not put her in the gifted program because they say gifted kids have to have a 138 to 150 on the OLSAT (she had a 118) and they say she doesn't have any disabilities either so does not qualify for any accomodations, and she is performing at least average which is fine with them. They won't even give me an answer about pre-algebra. I don't even know what to do next!

We are in a similar situation and have opted for at-home enrichment. In our case, the gifted program at school is hardly worth fighting for.

Have you looked into EPGY or CTY programs that she can do at home during the summer?

Hi Cathy,

She doesn't really need more schoolwork during the summer...the problem is that, when she is in school, she isn't always grouped with the kids that are "her people" so to speak. One time the teacher set up a special math group on the back of the classroom and she wasn't in it, and she was so frustrated because she was sitting with other kids who kept asking her questions and she couldn't even concentrate on what she was doing. (And...she was depressed about it because she felt like she was grouped with the "dumb kids"...sorry if that sounds harsh but they were her words at the time.) And...during school, she is always researching different things and writing reports on them "for fun" and writes huge novels on the computer.

Summer is less of an issue because it's not like she is watching kids do things that she wants to (and can) do. My son did do CTY for a few years and thought it was okay, but also wasn't the type of kid who thrived on doing schoolwork all day. He just wanted to be with the smart kids in school...and interestingly, his profile is almost identical to hers but with a stronger processing speed, yet he was put in the gifted program and also in pre-algebra. The difference? He was a behavior problem as a kid and so meetings were called by the school and a 504 was developed to help him "control his frustration". She is a good kid with no behavior problems. (And he is a junior in high school now with no issues, no more 504 (as it did its job when it was needed), in all advanced classes, and president of the senior class next year.)

P.S. Our gifted program is no great shakes either...in fact, if you are in it in middle school, you have to take it in place of electives like cooking and art. Even if she opts out, I did want her identified for the future...but I was actually more concerned about any accommodations she might need which would become more apparent as she got older.

That sounds frustrating! What if you approach the teacher next year and ask for her to try the more advanced math group. If she does well, that may help you advocate for her to be formally identified...

If you find an approach that works, I'd love to hear about it. We have pretty much given up on getting DD formally identified by the school. The psychologist who tested her says she is gifted, she qualified for CTY and EPGY online... and yet, her CogAT scores did not meet the school's requirements and they won't consider outside testing.

oh that's idiotic CathyA! The CoGAT is meant as a screener...it's stated on their website!

Thanks, Dazey -- I agree.

I have noticed this too. We were told my daughter would be "just fine" in a regular classroom, despite various issues raised by her test scores. She has always been a very compliant, agreeable girl. (Her goal next year is to win the school "Eager Student" award, which is all about behavior.) In the past I have told her that she's not allowed to say she's bored in school, that she has to find a way to make assignments interesting rather than complain. But what I'm learning in this process of being denied accommodation is that the "good" kids don't get anything. Do the schools want us to coach our kids into problem behavior? Because it sure feels like that's the only way to get any differentiation.

I'm reading this thread with a lot of interest. I have been struggling to explain my DD to her teachers, to TAG staff, to principals.... She is a well behaved, "absent minded professor" type who's learning style is completely non-linear. She leaves a trail of belongings behind her wherever she goes, and has a desk stuffed with papers and important notes from 3 months ago. Thank goodness my DS is at the same school and carries all the school notes home in his Friday Folder ! In an educational climate that seems to "doubt" giftedness in the first place, advocating for a child like this is a challenge. I won't list all the reasons that I'm confident in my assessment of her. Let's just say she has been clearly showing us who she is ever since she began to use speech (and in some ways, before that....). As to getting her needs met in school: Well, I'm told that she has "plenty of learning peers", but then I listen to her talk about how slowly everyone reads and how no one wants to "go deep" in books. Typically she finishes an assigned book on day one, then loses interest in it while waiting for everyone else to finish it (by which time she's moved on to other books). She is easily bored and distracted by math workbooks, so is slow to complete work--and some of the computation errors she makes: yikes! Give her the opportunity to solve it in her head or talk about it though, and she shines! Show her the problem she missed and she will quickly (and independently) catch the mistake and probably laugh at it. But next to organized, linear, outspoken achievers she often feels invisible.

For me, one of the hardest parts is the way in which the response I get in school makes me question what I know to be true about my DD. Thank goodness that she has learned to focus in controlled testing situations, and is finally beginning to accumulate some hard data to back up what I've been saying. I wanted to pass along links for a couple of articles I found awhile back. They didn't necessarily help me get what I needed for her, but they helped me to frame my arguments to the school and provided corroboration for my perceptions--something we all need now and again! Yes?
One of them is on the Davidson site, so maybe everyone's already read it.

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10171.aspx

http://www.sengifted.org/articles_social/Reis_SocialAndEmotionalIssuesFacedByGiftedGirls.shtml

http://www.gifted.uconn.edu/nrcgt/newsletter/spring00/sprng005.html

Taminy