Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Ability vs achievement scores

Does anyone know how IQ tests and achievement scores compare? My son's WJ-III achievement scores show 99th% or better on 10 subtests (>99.9 on 4). But when he was tested with the SBV his nonverbal was 98th% and verbal was 84th, giving him a full scale at 95%. The examiner did then use "select subtests" of the WPPSI for verbal skills as she didn't think the SBV captured his verbal skills. She didn't give numbers but said that he scored from above average to very superior on these subtests.
I'm wondering whether I should apply for YS - we could really use the help and support, but I wonder if he is at that profoundly gifted level or not. His initial achievement scores and some behaviors make me think so, but then the IQ scores don't reflect it. Is that possible? Do you think I should go ahead and apply?

Any chance the IQ scores aren't accurate? Example - he was sick that day or fed up because the achievement tests came first and he was tired?

Honestly, I would apply - whether you get in or not, the act of filling out the app was very useful for my DH and me.

Mary

How does he do on above level tests, such as the talent searches? They are usuallly pretty cheap, and intended to give this kind of info.
Best Wishes,
Trinity

I think he did well on the day of testing. No real concerns. He was 5 years 2 months for the IQ testing and had never had school at all, so the examiner felt that the SBV got too difficult too quickly for him. That's why she used the WPPSI subtests.
He actually did do an above level test at the same time as the SBV. They used an end of first grade level test (CTP from ERB) for "high achieving first graders" and he scored in the 7th% for listening comprehension and 9th% for math skills. The examiner emphasized how the test used was two years ahead of his grade level. He had not yet entered kindergarten - we had him tested to advocate for early first grade entry - which we got. But she had to discontinue the reading comprehension test as he couldn't complete the first items.
I was thinking about just applying - but guess I am worried about him not being appropriate. Nothing lost in trying though, huh?!

Debbie, how long did all this testing take? Was it all done on the same day? I think that can make a difference in results, too, if the testing is extensive and the child gets tired.

But I have the exact same concerns as you. My daughter, not quite 6 yrs old now, scored in the 99.9th percentile on the Woodc*ck-Johnson Reading Mastery test when she was 5 yrs. 4 mos. old. We are going to apply to the YS program with these scores plus portfolio, but I worry that when it comes to the IQ testing she will fall short of the 99.9th percentile and it will be a lot of effort for nothing.

When I read through Ruf's "levels of giftedness," DD definitely fits the Level 3 characteristics. She also fits some Level 4 characteristics but not overwhelmingly, like with the Level 3, so it's hard to assess. I guess eventually we will have to do the IQ testing and find out.

Did your examiner feel that the results were accurate for your son?

Debbie,
I encourage you to apply to YSP. They may so no,or not for now. You've got nothing to loose. I also encourage you to post to us here for any support you need either way. Hoagiesgifted.org is a wonderful resource also.
For what it's worth, Galaxy Girl, my son did get accepted to YSP, and I would place him at a Ruf Level 3. That is very gifted, indeed.
Best Wishes,
Trinity

Trinity, thanks for the info about your son and Ruf's Level 3--that is encouraging! How long has your son been in the YSP?

When DS was tested they did the SBV on the first day, then we went back for the out-of-level on the next day. I do think that the testing was done well and we are happy with the report and how the pshychologist took all things into consideration. She specifically states that looking just at his FSIQ score does not accurately represent his abilities. She also told us that we should retest when he is 7-8 years old as the scores tend to equalize (NV and V scores) and she thinks his IQ scores will come up across the board.
When I look at Ruf's Levels, he seems to have all the characteristics of Level 2, some of 3 and even a few in 4. I don't see the intensity in his processing that I think seems to be characteristic, yet his emotions and sensitivities can be right up there! And he just learns so spontaneously.
I have felt like you, Galaxy Girl, that I don't really want to do all the work associated with the application if he isn't even qualified. but I guess there's only one way to find out. I have started the application and was actually surprised by how much I could put down - hadn't really looked at all the stuff from the baby book and put it together for the "big picture." And I did call and talk to a family consultant at DI who encouraged me to apply as well. She said they would consider all aspects of the child even though the test scores are important.

I like the idea of including a portfolio of his work, maybe even a short video of him, even though we have his test scores. Thanks for the encouragement and input.

One thing that has me hesitate lately is DS seeming to have "slowed down" in his learning. He has a difficult time with being wrong and he is now spending a lot of time doing easy stuff. He's in first grade (5y 7 m, we got early entry based on the tests), but the work here at the beginning of the year is STILL too easy. He mastered all this at least a year ago. And I just don't know how to keep him "turned on to learning." Hence my desire to apply to YS and get some help from experts. We are also starting to see some anxiety and perhaps peer relation issues at school. I don't want to create problems, but am concerned about how things might develop. I've always felt that proactive is better than reactive!

Thanks again for the advice and support. Sorry this is long - glad to have someone to "listen!"

Debbie,
My experience is that it take quite a lot for a kid to sit in school all day long "not learning" and trying to be good. Keep working on the application, but I wouldn't wait for YSP on it's white horse, but would assume that you can do a lot of advocacy for him yourself. Have you considered another grade-skip? Single subject accelteration? Afterschooling? Have you read anything by Sylvia Rimm on Perfectionism (not wanting to be wrong) or Wienbrenner on "Teaching gifted kids in the regular classroom?" That book talks extensivly about curriculum compacting, which you can bring to the school and advocate for. Basically if you know that he mastered all this material one year ago, then you (should) know that you MUST do something to change the situation.

Keep posting to this forum, asking question and writing about what you are feeling. I, too, live with the idea that I "created" this problem to give myself something to do. Then just last week an IRL girlfriend, who isn't at all involved with Gifted, sat me down and wanted to know if I've noticed that my kid is a Genius or something, and shouldn't I be doing something to get him an appropriate education? LOLOLOLOL

But it was very useful and moving experience for me. It energised me to ask our new private school for a grade-skip, they are interviewing DS10 now. I never even mentioned YSP to this particular school - OTOH the support I've gotten from YSP and YSP parents over the last 1.5 years has gotten it "into me." Let's get "it" into you, Debbie!


What's your relationship like with the teacher? A good teaher can make things wonderful for a child. He or She is the place to start. I'd read the Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual to help understand all those tests, and Roger's Re-forming gifted education for ideas and charts.

Smiles -
Trinity

I would like to pass on this path that I found on Hoagies Gifted Ed Page. It contains a graph that apparently shows a correlation between the scores that gifted kids received on previous I.Q. tests and the scores they received on the new tests. Of particular interest is that the Stanford-Binet V scores are significantly lower than the earlier tests as well as the new WISCIV.

My DS10 who I would put at level 4 on the Ruf scale had scored exactly the spread that is cited on this graph between his SB4 at 6years and the SB5 at 10years. The examiner stated this has been the norm in his experience with the SB5.

Debbie,

This may explain why your son scored lower than expected-mine certainly did. I�m sure the Davidson team is already aware of this issue, but you may consider the WISC instead if you are looking for a higher score. The examiner warned us of the lower scores in advance, but I opted for it anyway because the SB has more math reasoning which I wanted him tested for.
v/r
Diana

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htm

Wow, that is a huge discrepancy in the gifted region. Now I see why the psychologist we used for testing recommended the SB IV rather than the SB5. The SB5 doesn't seem to be of much use in gifted region.

Trinity: Thanks so much for the encouragement. I needed that about now. I think I am still trying to wrap my head around the concept that my son could be gifted, perhaps very much so. So much we've seen over the years, that adds up to him being so different from other kids. Yet then I think I'm imagining it all!

I have actually been voracious in my reading on the topic and have already read Re-Forming Gifted Education, skimmed a couple of curriculum books (including Wienbrenner) and have purchased a number of books for myself and the school. We asked the school to use the Iowa Scale, as they resisted our request at first. But then they admitted him to first grade without question or using the scale after testing! But I donated the manual to the school beforehand! I also read and donated A Nation Decieved. I'm trying hard to be my son's best advocate. Just not always sure what I should be advocating for!

Today was a rough day for him and I do think he is bored all day long. He said today that school is too long and it takes too long for the day to go so he can come home. I don't think it is the fact that he has never been in school and now he is in full days. He has been in full time daycare/preschool since he was 12 weeks old. He is VERY used to being away all day at a "school".

I will apply for YS and keep advocating. I will keep supporting him at home and enriching his time outside school. And I will keep posting here for the support - thanks so much. Glad I found the board. And I will keep hoping that I will figure out what I'm doing as the parent of this wonderful sometimes overwhelming child!!

Wanted to comment on the test scores and all. I found all the advice about which test to use VERY confusing for this reason. I was told that the WPPSI would NOT reveal true IQ scores because son was likely to hit ceilings and the WPPSI/WISC weren't designed for assessing gifted kids or the top end of the IQ scale. I have found it more helpful to compare percentiles than standard scores. But from the information I can find on the internet and in books, there is no concensus as to which test is best for assessing giftedness. Seems such a qualitative thing, as in the Ruf Levels. Perhaps that really is the better way to categorize, if we must do so.

The more I learn about intelligence tests, the more apparent it becomes that we really do not yet understand intelligence at all, let alone high intelligence.

Basically what all the instruments (tests) pretty much break down in predictive reliability when you get near the floors and ceilings. Really, after the 98th%ile and before the 2nd%ile so many threats to internal and external validity just make the tests relatively invalid. Basically at those points you know you have a person/child who is operating very differently from the rest of the population. But exactly what is happening beyond that we don't know yet.

We really don't even know how many children are operating above the 98th%ile on these tests. Researchers are beginning to see evidence that many more people fall in that range than originally thought. So basically that means that the 98th%ile might not actually be the 98th%ile at all!!!!

So, yup, the WPPSI won't give you an IQ. But you really don't need that IQ. You need to know that your child is very highly functioning intellectually. The WPPSI CAN tell you that.

dajohnson60 wrote..."Does anyone know how IQ tests and achievement scores compare? My son's WJ-III achievement scores show 99th% or better on 10 subtests (>99.9 on 4). But when he was tested with the SBV his nonverbal was 98th% and verbal was 84th, giving him a full scale at 95%. The examiner did then use "select subtests" of the WPPSI for verbal skills as she didn't think the SBV captured his verbal skills. She didn't give numbers but said that he scored from above average to very superior on these subtests."


A term to know when understanding educational/psychological evaluation instruments is PREDICTIVE RELIABILITY.

Predictive reliability is the ability of on test/measurement/instrument to predict the performance of the individual on any other test/measurement/instrument.

Nutshelled that means any iq test has a PR that will tell you how reliable it is in predicting the child's performance on any other iq test or acheivement test. The same goes for the achievement test.

In addition, the PR will tell you how reliable that test is in predicting academic performance.

If the PR is low, then the test is pretty lousy and people aren't likely to use it. If it is high then its a pretty good indicator of abilities and performance and should match up well with other tests used.

Another thing to know is that from both achievement tests and iq tests you can extrapolate iq scores.

So if a child's composite score is 127 on the Wood**** Johnson III then it is very likely (PR is .92 to the WISC IV, I think) the child's iq would be within a half a standard deviation (+/- 7.5 pts) on the WISC IV.

Also, if you get a percentile score, you can extrapolate an iq score. If you are interested I'll find some websites with normal curve charts that will show you where a percentile rank falls on the standardized iq scale with 100 being the mean/average iq.

Standard scores can be extrapolated to iq scores (which are themselves standardized).

They are all just different ways of saying the same thing.

For your child's scores those difference are indicating failure at the ceilings of the tests used. The varied scores can also indicate learning disabilities and/or asynchrounous development.

oh and....predictive reliability is also used inside each test. Any subtest or subscale on any given test should strongly predict the scores betweent themselves.

So a child with a very hi verbal score would be expected to have a very hi perceptual score. Or a child with a very hi writing fluency score would be expected to have a very high mathematics score.

When a child's score within a test fluctuate more than a standard deviation (15%ile points), one needs to consider "specific learning disabilities" and get the child more thoroughly evaluated.

My son had as much as a 91%ile point difference between subtests!!

An iq score shouldn't really be drawn from such a test. The test should just be used diagnostically in this type of situation.

For my son there was severe asynchronous development, so severe that he has specific learning disabilities. His doctors say it will pull together over time and with interventions to help him overcome the LDs.

Of course, the school psychologist says the scores indicate an average iq. ARGH!!!!!

but I digress....quickly pull me back!!! chuckle

Yeah. If you have all the scores above 145 and there are scatters in the test that say range from 145 to 160 or 180, then really it probably isn't a problem.

The predictive reliability begins to melt down above 140 on all the regularly used measures.

However, if you have a score at 145 and a score at 130 or 115, that can be indicative of a SLD.

Debbie wrote: **I think I am still trying to wrap my head around the concept that my son could be gifted, perhaps very much so. So much we've seen over the years, that adds up to him being so different from other kids. Yet then I think I'm imagining it all!**

Debbie, I'm sure all parents of gifted have the same thoughts at times. Recently my husband and I debated this very question when we were trying to decide whether to switch schools for DD5, only 3 weeks into the year. Playing devil's advocate he said, "Yes, she's really smart--but what if she's just really smart, not gifted...?"

It really is hard to know sometimes if we are only imagining that our child is "so different" from other kids. We worry maybe we're being self-indulgent or egotistical and exaggerating our child's abilities, or maybe we've "pushed" them somehow. On top of our self-doubts, we've got the Establishment (school system) saying "she'll be fine where she is... she can't be gifted because she didn't have the top score in the class on yesterday's test... etc. "

I've found that a good cure for this doubt is to actually visit a classroom and see what the "normal" kids are doing. Classroom visits have really been eye-opening for me! The day we visited DD's potential new school, for example, I sat and listened to her read higher grade level material to the teacher--and then heard other kids in the room struggling to sound out simple one-syllable words. It drove home the fact that DD is very very different from her age group. (Added to all the years of strangers saying, "Ummm, HOW OLD is she?")

Gal G and Debbie,
Visiting a school is an excellent suggestion. Here's another way to do it. I volunteered to teach a group of 7th Graders the year my son was in 2nd Grade. There is nothing like being in front a lovely, normal group of 12 year olds, and trying to talk to them in vocablulary and style that works so well for your own 7 year old, seeing that you really have to turn the intellectual volume way, way down from what you are used to....and then going right back into denial about the whole experience - LOL! We've come a long way.

Trinity

I think visiting the class would be a great way for me to get first hand information about how DS functions. My concern is that I get so many behaviors as the mom - the clinginess and whining really step up a notch when I'm around, versus my husband. So maybe I should send DH to look.

We had an interesting weekend - with intellectual gymnastics and oversensitivities in abundance! After three days on the road and out of town with DS, I have no reason to think he is a "typical kid" - there is definitely something different here. No matter what the test scores say! Thanks to all for the information. It has helped a lot!

Debbie,
Welcome home!
You go to the school. If you just sit quietly he will likely calm down eventually. Or go to a different room with kids of the same grade - it's them you've come to see, not really your own - you know your own pretty well by now.

You wanna feel the lack of stimulation first hand - that'll help put things in perspective. It's not that schools are bad. It's that normal development is normal, and different than DS's. You wouldn't ask any of those normal kids to go back and repeat their previous year of school to develop their social skills - you just wouldn't!

You're so good. Horray for you for stepping out of line!
Trinity