Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Ability vs achievement scores

Wow, that is a huge discrepancy in the gifted region. Now I see why the psychologist we used for testing recommended the SB IV rather than the SB5. The SB5 doesn't seem to be of much use in gifted region.

Trinity: Thanks so much for the encouragement. I needed that about now. I think I am still trying to wrap my head around the concept that my son could be gifted, perhaps very much so. So much we've seen over the years, that adds up to him being so different from other kids. Yet then I think I'm imagining it all!

I have actually been voracious in my reading on the topic and have already read Re-Forming Gifted Education, skimmed a couple of curriculum books (including Wienbrenner) and have purchased a number of books for myself and the school. We asked the school to use the Iowa Scale, as they resisted our request at first. But then they admitted him to first grade without question or using the scale after testing! But I donated the manual to the school beforehand! I also read and donated A Nation Decieved. I'm trying hard to be my son's best advocate. Just not always sure what I should be advocating for!

Today was a rough day for him and I do think he is bored all day long. He said today that school is too long and it takes too long for the day to go so he can come home. I don't think it is the fact that he has never been in school and now he is in full days. He has been in full time daycare/preschool since he was 12 weeks old. He is VERY used to being away all day at a "school".

I will apply for YS and keep advocating. I will keep supporting him at home and enriching his time outside school. And I will keep posting here for the support - thanks so much. Glad I found the board. And I will keep hoping that I will figure out what I'm doing as the parent of this wonderful sometimes overwhelming child!!

Wanted to comment on the test scores and all. I found all the advice about which test to use VERY confusing for this reason. I was told that the WPPSI would NOT reveal true IQ scores because son was likely to hit ceilings and the WPPSI/WISC weren't designed for assessing gifted kids or the top end of the IQ scale. I have found it more helpful to compare percentiles than standard scores. But from the information I can find on the internet and in books, there is no concensus as to which test is best for assessing giftedness. Seems such a qualitative thing, as in the Ruf Levels. Perhaps that really is the better way to categorize, if we must do so.

The more I learn about intelligence tests, the more apparent it becomes that we really do not yet understand intelligence at all, let alone high intelligence.

Basically what all the instruments (tests) pretty much break down in predictive reliability when you get near the floors and ceilings. Really, after the 98th%ile and before the 2nd%ile so many threats to internal and external validity just make the tests relatively invalid. Basically at those points you know you have a person/child who is operating very differently from the rest of the population. But exactly what is happening beyond that we don't know yet.

We really don't even know how many children are operating above the 98th%ile on these tests. Researchers are beginning to see evidence that many more people fall in that range than originally thought. So basically that means that the 98th%ile might not actually be the 98th%ile at all!!!!

So, yup, the WPPSI won't give you an IQ. But you really don't need that IQ. You need to know that your child is very highly functioning intellectually. The WPPSI CAN tell you that.

dajohnson60 wrote..."Does anyone know how IQ tests and achievement scores compare? My son's WJ-III achievement scores show 99th% or better on 10 subtests (>99.9 on 4). But when he was tested with the SBV his nonverbal was 98th% and verbal was 84th, giving him a full scale at 95%. The examiner did then use "select subtests" of the WPPSI for verbal skills as she didn't think the SBV captured his verbal skills. She didn't give numbers but said that he scored from above average to very superior on these subtests."


A term to know when understanding educational/psychological evaluation instruments is PREDICTIVE RELIABILITY.

Predictive reliability is the ability of on test/measurement/instrument to predict the performance of the individual on any other test/measurement/instrument.

Nutshelled that means any iq test has a PR that will tell you how reliable it is in predicting the child's performance on any other iq test or acheivement test. The same goes for the achievement test.

In addition, the PR will tell you how reliable that test is in predicting academic performance.

If the PR is low, then the test is pretty lousy and people aren't likely to use it. If it is high then its a pretty good indicator of abilities and performance and should match up well with other tests used.

Another thing to know is that from both achievement tests and iq tests you can extrapolate iq scores.

So if a child's composite score is 127 on the Wood**** Johnson III then it is very likely (PR is .92 to the WISC IV, I think) the child's iq would be within a half a standard deviation (+/- 7.5 pts) on the WISC IV.

Also, if you get a percentile score, you can extrapolate an iq score. If you are interested I'll find some websites with normal curve charts that will show you where a percentile rank falls on the standardized iq scale with 100 being the mean/average iq.

Standard scores can be extrapolated to iq scores (which are themselves standardized).

They are all just different ways of saying the same thing.

For your child's scores those difference are indicating failure at the ceilings of the tests used. The varied scores can also indicate learning disabilities and/or asynchrounous development.

oh and....predictive reliability is also used inside each test. Any subtest or subscale on any given test should strongly predict the scores betweent themselves.

So a child with a very hi verbal score would be expected to have a very hi perceptual score. Or a child with a very hi writing fluency score would be expected to have a very high mathematics score.

When a child's score within a test fluctuate more than a standard deviation (15%ile points), one needs to consider "specific learning disabilities" and get the child more thoroughly evaluated.

My son had as much as a 91%ile point difference between subtests!!

An iq score shouldn't really be drawn from such a test. The test should just be used diagnostically in this type of situation.

For my son there was severe asynchronous development, so severe that he has specific learning disabilities. His doctors say it will pull together over time and with interventions to help him overcome the LDs.

Of course, the school psychologist says the scores indicate an average iq. ARGH!!!!!

but I digress....quickly pull me back!!! chuckle

Yeah. If you have all the scores above 145 and there are scatters in the test that say range from 145 to 160 or 180, then really it probably isn't a problem.

The predictive reliability begins to melt down above 140 on all the regularly used measures.

However, if you have a score at 145 and a score at 130 or 115, that can be indicative of a SLD.

Debbie wrote: **I think I am still trying to wrap my head around the concept that my son could be gifted, perhaps very much so. So much we've seen over the years, that adds up to him being so different from other kids. Yet then I think I'm imagining it all!**

Debbie, I'm sure all parents of gifted have the same thoughts at times. Recently my husband and I debated this very question when we were trying to decide whether to switch schools for DD5, only 3 weeks into the year. Playing devil's advocate he said, "Yes, she's really smart--but what if she's just really smart, not gifted...?"

It really is hard to know sometimes if we are only imagining that our child is "so different" from other kids. We worry maybe we're being self-indulgent or egotistical and exaggerating our child's abilities, or maybe we've "pushed" them somehow. On top of our self-doubts, we've got the Establishment (school system) saying "she'll be fine where she is... she can't be gifted because she didn't have the top score in the class on yesterday's test... etc. "

I've found that a good cure for this doubt is to actually visit a classroom and see what the "normal" kids are doing. Classroom visits have really been eye-opening for me! The day we visited DD's potential new school, for example, I sat and listened to her read higher grade level material to the teacher--and then heard other kids in the room struggling to sound out simple one-syllable words. It drove home the fact that DD is very very different from her age group. (Added to all the years of strangers saying, "Ummm, HOW OLD is she?")

Gal G and Debbie,
Visiting a school is an excellent suggestion. Here's another way to do it. I volunteered to teach a group of 7th Graders the year my son was in 2nd Grade. There is nothing like being in front a lovely, normal group of 12 year olds, and trying to talk to them in vocablulary and style that works so well for your own 7 year old, seeing that you really have to turn the intellectual volume way, way down from what you are used to....and then going right back into denial about the whole experience - LOL! We've come a long way.

Trinity

I think visiting the class would be a great way for me to get first hand information about how DS functions. My concern is that I get so many behaviors as the mom - the clinginess and whining really step up a notch when I'm around, versus my husband. So maybe I should send DH to look.

We had an interesting weekend - with intellectual gymnastics and oversensitivities in abundance! After three days on the road and out of town with DS, I have no reason to think he is a "typical kid" - there is definitely something different here. No matter what the test scores say! Thanks to all for the information. It has helped a lot!