Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Aspbergers = High Functioning Autism?

A friend asked me a question recently to which I didn't know the answer. Is Aspbergers the name for the high functioning end of Autism Spectrum Disorders, or is it a different thing altogether?

She has a very gifted son that she has concerns about, but while he doesn't seem to fit the Aspberger's profile, he does seem to have some autistic tendencies. He's extrememly introverted, is very anxious in social situations, is not big on physical contact, hates changes to his routine. He can however carry appropriate conversations, understand jokes, make eye contact, and has some friends. He just really seems to prefer to avoid social interactions, unless they are one-on-one and he knows the person well.

Does autism/Aspbergers mean the inability to follow social conventions, or the lack of desire to do so?

If anyone has any links to good sites that I could point her toward it would also be much appreciated. She's not the type to surf the net looking for answers, and I don'tknow enough about this subject to help much.

The 'bible' of 'very gifted' + spectrum disorders is Dee Lovecky's Different Mindswhich I own, but have only skimmer.

Misdiagnosis And Dual Diagnoses Of Gifted Children And Adults: ADHD, Bipolar, OCD, Asperger's, Depression, And Other Disorders by James T. Webb, Edward R. Amend, Nadia E. Webb, Jean Goerss, Paul Beljan, F. Richard Olenchak, and Sharon Lind
Physicians, psychologist, and counselors are unaware of characteristics of gifted children and adults that mimic pathological diagnoses. Six nationally prominent health care professionals describe ways parents and professionals can distinguish between gifted behaviors and pathological behaviors...

This book is much more readible, but alas, too short!

Those two should get her started in the right direction.
Grinity

this is a very brief explanation, but a good start:

Autism Spectrum Disorder a.k.a. Pervasive Development Disorder "PDD" includes the following
1)aspbergers syndrome
2)Retts syndrome (rare)
3)Childhood Disintegrative Disorder (rare)
4)autism (must have six pervasive symptoms over social, language, and behavior domains)
5)PDD-NOS- which means Pervasive Developmental Disorder Not Otherwise Specificied.. so the child doesn't meet the diagnositic criteria, which are very specific, for the other four categories, but has atypical aspects of social, language, and behavior.

High Functioning Autism is an informal term and usually means the kids who do not meet the aspergers criteria (which you can find easily on the web) but are on the autism spectrum. Many officially have the "PDD-NOS" label. They differ from aspbergers in one major way and that is "aspies" must have extremely strong VERBAL abilities relative to other areas, while kids with HFA do not.

THen there is the gifted part in the mix and that is addressed in teh books Grinity recommends.

irene

I have a highly gifted son who has friends,regular speech patterns. He has trouble with low frustration tolerance ( average processing speed + highly gifted) and often will try to mask his true emotions with anger. He'd rather not be seen crying and feels anger is the solution.He is also very much of a perfectionist and will often refuse to try things than risk failure.

We have found that Dr.s and others have very little knowledge of the intensities and characteristics of the highly gifted. Read Dobrowski's theory of intensities of the highly gifted.

A child who is highly gifted and has social skills issues is not Aspergers. Read the Misdiagnosis book... a real eye opener. A child who maintains friends, gets invited to multiple parties,and is very concerned with what others may think of him is not Aspergers.

It seems there has not been much research into kids who are above regular gifted and more in the genius to profoundly gifted range. The more gifted the more intense the characteristics. These kids need understanding not labels.

my own father was profoundly gifted and i have a son who was diagnosed PDD-NOS and we suspect now may also be proufoundly gifted. While some have said to me, after i describe my father, that he may have been aspbergers..it just doesn't fit. Though he had pooor social skills and some other qualities that were eceentric.. he was not disabled.. had friends and interests..functioned within the world..etc. I think there is a "fine line" but in the end its whether a person can be independent and functioning to a level that makes them happy with themselves - as my father definitely was very ok with himself- that ultimately distingusihes a person as either having a spectrum disability or simply the quirks of personality that may go with being profoundly gifted. Kind of like when you try to figure out if you have the blues or if you're clinically despressed- how much is it interfering with your life? can you function? etc..
irene

Drawing the lines/getting an accurate diagnosis or finding there is no diagnosis is important, but the bottom line, to me, is getting the right help for a child. My ds8 does not fit any of the definitions of aspergers, high functioning autistic, etc., however definitely has social skills deficits - stuff he just doesn't know how to do, and also some social anxiety (mostly from having failed to do things right in previous social situations). Some of these skills can be learned, through social skills groups with other kids, one-on-one counseling, and other methods, so we are looking at the options right now.

The dual diagnosis/misdiagnosis book Grinity recommends is a very helpful read. I have not looked at the other book.

CFK-
i have a question. Does your son have any processing speed issues (like low coding score on WISC?). One of the theories floating around with my son is that his very slow processing speed, combined with giftedness, looked a heck of a lot like HFA or aspbergers. He has a really hard time getting a social situation going, but then is fine once friendships are established. We think his processing is impacting those initial, more difficult, interactions. We are also looking at his auditory processing as his visual/spatial is really incredibly good. So just curious if this might be an issue wiht your DS.

I am so sorry to add to the list of alternate diagnosis but to me, it sounds like SPD (sensory processing disorder). My son was diagnosed ADHD but I felt it was wrong. A couple of people told me he seemed high functioning autism although he sounded just like the child you describe: good eye contact, gets jokes, makes friends. He just sort of gets hyper-shy around people the first time and it results in some odd behavior. Plus, he has sensory issues: loud noises, dislikes hugs, etc. Some doctors believe that SPD is on the autism spectrum so for me, it really has been the missing link. Hope that helps!

I haven't read the Dual Diagnosis although if they're recommending it, it's probably a very good resource. If you can't find it in the store for some reason, I like The Mislabeled Child by the Eides. That's what led me to SPD.

"Perhaps the most pronounced feature to distinguish a gifted AS student is his or her remarkable lack of insight and awareness regarding the feelings, needs, and interests of other people. An AS child will talk interminably about a favorite topic, unaware that the listener might not be interested, needs to leave, is bored, or wants to say something. AS children will also interrupt private conversations and enter or leave abruptly without concern for the wishes or needs of others. They seem oblivious to the simplest rules of social conduct, and repeated efforts to instruct them or remind them do not change these behaviors. A pronounced lack of social awareness is not a common characteristic of ordinary gifted children."

I have been reading all of the suggested material given by the great people on this site since my DS4 has not been given any diagnosis label (the doctors (child neuro and psych) didn't give him a label because there wasn't enough stuff matching one), but has some mild symptoms, plus being gifted. The boy just may be mild "whatever." Since I was given no diagnosis, but seem to have a feeling for areas of my DS4's weaknesses; I have just gotten help for those areas (speech and mild social). I recently learned that there are "social skills" classes available. Speech teachers usually offer the social skills classes. They focus on confidence, sharing, taking turns, initiating play, what to do when someone you ask to play says no, alternatives to playtime scenarios. We are aggressively working on his speech areas as well, to see if this is the cause for part of the social stuff as well. My DS4 is very social but has problems in huge groups. He also is very strong-willed, prefers to lead, and tends to suck kids into his "fun.":)

I recommend the mis/dual-diagnosis book as well.

Wow, this sounds just like DD5. She just finished up testing/eval last week for ADHD, SPD, plus IQ testing. We won't get the results for a couple more weeks.

I feel sick. It sort of sounds like me. I think in my case, a lot of it was lack of proper training and it's improved as I've gotten older. To some degree, empathy can be taught. I always thought of myself as a super empathetic person because I'm so sensitive, but I did have a tendency to interrupt, talk too much about my topics, just basic boorish behavior up until I pretty much had kids. 8[

You may be interested to know that recent research has found that most people with Asperger's feel *too much* in the way of empathy, as opposed to the old way of thinking that people with Asperger's lack empathy altogether..... (article below)

A groundbreaking study suggests people with autism-spectrum disorders such as Asperger's do not lack empathy � rather, they feel others' emotions too intensely to cope.
http://www.thestar.com/article/633688

Misty

Very good description, though this will vary in intensity with different AS children. Some Aspies talk too much and some barely talk at all. The above description fits one of my Aspies to a T. Another of my Aspies will interrupt without concern, but she doesn't go on and on and on about a subject like my other 2 Aspies do. She is very sensitive to sound and just doesn't talk much. She gets headaches easily from too much sound and too much social interaction.

Misty

If this sounds like your daughter, I would be sure to inform the person who is testing your daughter. They may want to look into Asperger's. They may not pick up on it unless you point it out to them, depending on your child AND how familiar the diagnosing professional is with Asperger's. ADHD & SPD usually go along with Asperger's, so it's possible she is also Aspie. I have 3 daughters with Asperger's.. One of them just turned 6. She was diagnosed last year at age 5. She is just like the above description and also has raging ADHD and sensory processing issues (and major anxiety).

Let me know if you'd like more info.

Misty

Asperger's is considered a type of high-functioning autism. With classic high-functioning autism, there is usually a speech delay. With Asperger's, there is generally no speech delay. This is one way that psychologists and other diagnosing professionals distinguish between the two. But Asperger's IS considered a spectrum disorder and it IS considered a type of high-functioning autism.

Hope this answers your question.

Misty

I don't think my son has Asperger's but he has motor dyspraxia and hyptonia, sensory issues, a few phobias, and some anxiety, so our insurance is going to pay for a neuropsychological assessment at a child study center. He has enough issues in common with Aspies that I am on an Asperger's mail list and I found some things I read there helpful. My son, who just turned 11, has not been able to learn to swim because of a fear of being in deep water and group lessons would not work for him. Someone on the Asperger's mailing list told me about someone who could give my son private lessons.

The developmental pediatrician my son saw last year said he did not have Asperger's. He has no problem with making eye contact and one of his favorite things to do is make people laugh, and I think he uses humor to deal with some of his issues. He likes being around people, in fact he does not like being alone. He is more social than I am and he is a very good host when his friends come over. He doesn't talk to them about things he knows his friends don't care anything about and that, unfortunately, is half the things he is interested in. They do have a love of video games in common, and musical theater.

this might be too much spliting hairs, but aspergers is not a type of high functioning autism. It is a type of Pervasive Developmental Disorder. "High funtioning Autism" is a colloquial term (never mentioned in the DSM) to describe kids who are NOT aspergers but who are very high functioning and have a Pervasisve Developmental Disorder. Kids with "high functioning autism" usually have the diagnosis of PDD-NOS and have the language delay, those with aspbergers do not (among other distinctions).

The only reason I think its important to point this out is that there are a lot of really interesting articles out there about the differences between HFA and Aspbergers, and to understand and appreciate them you have to think of HFA as the population who do not fit into Aspergers diagnosis, instead of Aspies being some type of subset of HFA. The first source of my info on this came from Dr. Cecelia McCarton a developmental ped. who diagnosed my son (not Aspergers but HFA (PDD-NOS)). She even pointed out that some kids with HFA are actually less impaired than those with Aspergers, as its often assumed that aspies are the "highest functioning" on the spectrum.

http://www.autism-help.org/autism-high-functioning-hfa.htm
http://www.highfunctioningautism.org/

irene

Jamie, I wanted to hear some more about this
Clip that I carefully dissected from another thread:


I'm not picking on you. �I'm asking because I've wondered the same thing. �Somebody I knew made a tasteless joke one time that if I was any smarter I would have been autistic. � �I had never heard of Aspbergers at that time. �I know I fit well into some situations better than others in life. �I have learned to chose my surroundings and friends wisely. �I do not consider myself ASD but obviously have some of the same traits where there's an overlap. �I'm just curious and appreciative of this chance to ask questions. �Thanks.

Autism and IQ do not correlate. You can have autism and a very low IQ, or a very high IQ. The low IQ and severe language delays would usually produce a diagnosis of "classic" autism; no language delay and it's usually Asperger's.

I like the quote Melmich posted earlier in this thread: severe social difficulties are not a normal part of being gifted, and should be evaluated.

DeeDee

I am really intrigued by the possible connection too, I read in another thread about the child who exhibited autistic traits only during gym class and it got me thinking about how, in retrospect, my own DD's "Aspie" issues really didn't start to become prevalent until she first moved into a bad school situation in middle school.

After reading "Aspergirls" by Rudy Simone, I recognized so many of my own traits that I was convinced that I too had Aspergers. After more reading, I see that many of my "Aspie-traits" could also be explained as simply "gifted over-excitabilities". For example, noises such as: whistling, the constant hum of distant machinery or fluorescent lights etc, the feel of certain textures on my fingernails: that flame retarded polyester they make children's pjs out of, chalk, and oh the horror of paper grocery bags.

Even at 40+, I have felt capable of having a complete meltdown in the presence of a whistler at work. Thankfully, there aren't too many of them, but I carry earplugs everywhere, just in case. And I have surprised several previous co-workers by asking them to PLEASE STOP TOUCHING ME!!!

BUT, after reading about the kid in Gym class, whose symptoms went away completely once he went to a different school, I started thinking about how my own issues really don't surface in a problematic way when I am really engaged in, and happy with what I am doing. Those things still bother me, but not in an all-consuming, I am going to explode way, I am able to tolerate them much better.

I mentioned the Gym class kid to my DD, and she totally got it, she said "he just didn't like the class" so I asked if she thought he was mimicking traits (hand-flapping etc) just to get out of the class and she said "no, it's just shutting down in an intolerable situation to escape from it". Maybe we all have varying degrees of autism and we have just developed varying abilities to mask or deal with it, but certain triggers bring out the "aspie-ness" in some of us gifties?

I am hoping someone comes up with a new term to describe our gifted, often introverted kids who have some social anxiety, but are typical (or advanced) in their speech development, empathy levels and understanding of other people's point of view. A Theory of Mind deficit comes up in some definitions of autism or Aspergers, but not all. If a child has a good understanding of Theory of Mind, should they be diagnosed with PDD-NOS? Not in my opinion, but, ToM seems to be ignored by some clinicians.

To me, processing deficits can impact social skills - for instance, if you have an auditory processing deficit, you will miss alot of fast paced conversations in a group and may avoid them so you don't get teased.

My son began speaking at 10 months, and speaking in complete sentences by 20 months. At age four was tested by the school district who concluded that he was learning at a 7th or 8th grade level. He was diagnosed with autism at age 3. He had no speech delay (quite the opposite) and his language was/is very sophisticated.

Autism diagnoses are not consistent--it all depends on who is doing the diagnosing. Some kids like my son get an Asperger Syndrome diagnosis (there is no "b" in the name), some get autism, some get ADHD, some get PDD-NOS, and some get a combination of these. My son was reevaluated at age 5 and diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome. It is believed that the original diagnosis of autism was correct, but that he has matured to where he appears to have AS. The difference in my son's case is the severity of the symptoms. He could be said to have very mild autism, or very severe Asperger Syndrome. He does not flap his hands or walk on tip toes, and he is very sensitive, especially regarding animals (particularly cats). He is highly gifted and has ASD. He is very empathetic, but doesn't show affection, is somewhat awkward physically, doesn't ride a bike. He is exactly like Sheldon on Big Bang Theory.

Many believe the hallmark of Asperger Syndrome is the "special interest"--a subject that engulfs the child. Can be something odd, like vacuum cleaners or antique doorknobs, or can be something more "normal," like bugs, Pokemon, or Twilight. But they will know everything there is to know on the subject, talk about it constantly, become experts. It is their comfort and their love. These interests can change over the years, or stay the same forever. Many boys with ASD love trains beginning with Thomas the Tank Engine, and grow to be experts on trains of all kinds. Many girls with ASD love horses or fantasy/magical worlds.

Rumor is that the next DSM will not include Asperger Syndrome, and that the diagnosis will be swallowed by ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder).

I urge people not to be ashamed of having Asperger Syndrome. There is a diagnosis because this diagnosis helps the child get appropriate supports in school and at home. Asperger Syndrome is nothing to fear.

My DD also began speaking/reading/writing very well very early. We used to joke about how she started talking in complete sentences well before age 2 and hasn't shut up since.

Too funny, my DD is also a lot like Sheldon in many ways at times (but not as consistently rigid).


I believe this is what delayed my DD's diagnosis. From what I understand now though, girls are much more prone to be obsessed with things like reading or animals - obsessions that may seem more "acceptable" or "normal" and they are therefore far less likely to be accurately diagnosed.

I get the impression many Aspies are proud of being Aspies. I know my DD is.

Orson, thank you for your post!