Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Recommended Resources What language would you take?

We are looking at the possiblity of having the kids take a summer language course. What language would you suggest and why? Here our elementary kids take an hour of spanish a week.

Great Question and one I have been in some discussions recently with other moms in the area. My DD will be in a Spanish Immersion program this summer. I choose Spanish b/c I live in Texas and she will have more opportunities to use the language but I also know I want her to learn more then 1 language so it is a starting point.

When the conversation turns to her taking Spanish Immersion this opens up the gates and I have heard numerous times how they would have their child learn either Spanish or Chinese but not French, French is dead in their eyes. I am in total shock by such comments.

Here is my take on languages: If your child is going in a more academic world then they will need to know French, German and Latin. If they are specializing in a certain niche such as Latin America or Russia then it is apparent that they will need to know Spanish and Russian.

For our economical world: Chinese is key.

For my child: We will teach her Spanish and/or French and then Chinese while she is young and let her decide where she wants to take it.

Sorry I was Sooooo long winded on that answer. Really has been a hot topic of conversation around me here lately.

Ds6 takes French at his school as part of the curriculum -- I liked that it's a little more challenging than Spanish, where the phonics are almost identical to English. The French provides a bit more challenge for him.

Plus, the French class is much smaller than the Spanish class -- more individualized instruction, more time for each time. You might want to look at enrollment in the classes and find one with fairly low enrollment -- that allows for more time for speaking per child.

What languages are you considering?

Mr W speaks Spanish only during the day. Then English at night and on the weekends.

We'll start Greek and Russian when he is three, then he can go into the Chinese program when he gets into grade school.

We will add summers abroad when he gets a bit older so he can have months in that FL to build total fluency.

Latin when he is in his teens.

I asked this same question on an online forum with many international and multilingual members when I was deciding how to rank the language immersion choices for our magnet school lottery. Most of the responders said that ANY second language would be a gift and that English is so widely understood, the other language could really be chosen for reasons other than its usefulness out in the world. Many of them recommended Chinese because it is more difficult to learn later in life. Some recommended French for various reasons (language of the arts historically; easier to pronounce correctly if you learn it young; like Spanish it's spoken on this continent); and I still wonder whether I should have ranked French higher. Most of the Americans recommended Spanish, which we ended up ranking first in the lottery (we didn't get it). Interestingly, although there are lots of Germans on that forum -- it's the second most common language there after English -- nobody at all recommended German. Still, German is what we drew, so that's what DS will be learning in kindergarten. (I took German in college so that's OK with me.) I want him to learn Spanish too, though, so in time we will see about getting him lessons in that. Perhaps French someday as well.

My husband actually voted for Japanese. (Choices here are Spanish, French, German, Chinese, and Japanese.) He doesn't speak it but he's visited the country. But since he let me have final say I ranked the languages that I thought I'd be able to decipher on the homework assignments. Still... the Japanese class will be very small, there's still time to switch to that (just until tomorrow, eek), it would probably be a great challenge for a kid who reads English at a 5th grade level already... (I do a lot of second guessing, you can tell.)

I was also considering a second language this summer with DD11 to help keep her occupied. We have the weekly hour of Spanish here as well, which started in K. She is frustrated with the Spanish because they move at a snail's pace.

Are there any languages that stand out as part of your genealogical background? It may be fun to learn to speak what great-great-great grandpa spoke, and maybe learn about the country too.

Since its just for fun I'm going to find a few with good resources (books, online) and let her choose.

Maybe this would solve my question.

http://www.powerspeak.com/Summer_Sampler_1.html

It is also offered for the middle school grades. Otherwise I was looking at a one semester class for summer. One of my sisters speaks five languages fluently. It was her minor in college and she spent the years before her daughter was born setting up language classes overseas for the government. I had French in high school and remember almost nil this many years later without use. I just think that waiting until high school is counterproductive from everything I have read.

I use the Muzzy program and bought it in Spanish for DD awhile back. She loves it and just recently I got an email for a deal from them: level 1 and 2 for five languages (Spanish, French, German,Italian & English)for the price I paid for the level 1 Spanish edition. I wish they included the Chinese one in the mix but having 4 additional languages is nice. So I am waiting for that in the mail and will be looking to sell my Spanish one on ebay.

Katelyn'sM om,

Is there a special code for this deal?

I found it on my weekly email from homeschoolbuyersco-op.org, which is free. It is listed under Deals of the Month on their site and is offered as a summer class from K12, who then directs you to powerspeak. I believe you can also order it completely on your own directly from K12, either online or over the phone with the number provided.

GS9 took an afterschool enrichment class in Spanish last year, this year he did French. I thought I'd start him on Latin this summer, and got the course for him. But in the last few weeks he discovered Greek mythology, has most of them memorized and is moving on to the classics of Greek mythology. He also started looking up Greek letters and language on the net, so I've been looking at Greek for this summer.

Nikita,

It is for repeat customers so no... no special code. Sorry. And the scary thing is I missed the email. It was a friend that I introduced to Muzzy who mentioned the deal by accident last night. Thank Goodness since it expired at midnight last night. The stars aligned for me on that one! I would have been peeved if I missed that one.

OHGrandma,

That is really exciting. It is even more special when they discover it on their own.

I took French in high school, and have rarely found it useful. However, if you learn French, Spanish or Italian, you can more easily decipher any of the other of those three because they are related. That is, of course, providing you can actually remember any of it twenty years later. I would recommend Chinese for the very young, based on my limited experience with my DD2 and the show "Ni Hao Kai-Lan"--she is picking up the inflections perfectly, which comes a lot harder as you get older. Same with Japanese. I have a patriotic aversion to teaching my kids Chinese on the basis that they will need it in the future--that speaks ill for the future of our country--but I suppose I'll probably get over it.

Did you find anything fun for Greek, OHGranny? I've been looking out some funny little bits and pieces for Greek for the lads--once they learned the alphabet, they've been having fun leaving each other messages "in code" (English words but in Greek letters). There's a fun old textbook for littles online called "Greek for Little Scholars" (Philotechnic Institute 1866). We've also been learning a Delphic maxim per week for a little while (Be yourself; Love friendship; Pursue honour, etc.). Since they're nearly all imperatives, it simplifies the grammar! I found a lot of other cool stuff at the Greek Teachers' Corner ( www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~glawall/grkteach.html ). (The Hokey-Pokey in Greek, anyone?)

I've been using the Leslie Collins Edwards "Reading Course in Homeric Greek" for myself--I've been feeling a bit brain-dead this year and wanted to try something new to shake up the synapses a little, so I'm nibbling through a little bit of the Odyssey in Greek, with lots of help from the textbook and some stuff online. I think mostly people start with Koine or Attic (for both of which there are many more materials available--Koine looks to have the most stuff aimed directly at young people), but I thought that since what I really want to do is to be able to read a little of Homer, I might as well do Epic instead. I can't remember how old your grandson is, but this book, although a university text, is very clear, and has been reasonably smooth sailing (on the wine-dark sea...) so far--maybe he'd like it, too? There's another Homeric Greek book by Clyde Pharr, which I think is available online, that uses the Iliad, and a British text, published by Duckworth, that also does the Odyssey.

Anyway, just a couple of thoughts!

peace
minnie

PS, Well, now that I've also learned to read English, I see that your grandson is 9!

Minnie, we have a few sites bookmarked at his logon. I don't think any are the ones you've recommended, so we'll look at those, too. Friday he found a site where you can type in your name and it gives the greek spelling. He wrote down his and several of his friends. I think he has plans on using it as a way to send secret messages, haha, that's fine, whatever inspires him to learn!

I thought we'd go with Koine since that's the greek which was used by writers of New Testament scriptures. The majority of people I know who can read greek learned Koine. A homeschool course that many recommend is http://www.opentexture.com/products/greek/yearone/

I took French, and I only use it to decipher Spanish now.

Since Spanish is taught here extremely early, I would vote for Chinese or Japanese.

Heck re-read some of my posts - I should re-take ENGLISH!

Is it National Self Deprecation Day yet?

Wow I wish my kids had language offered in elementary school!

I teach Second Language Acquisition and I really don't think it matters what language a child learns. The important factor is motivation, which could come from the language itself, the teacher, the method, the opportunities to speak, anything. If you're looking at an hour a week, your child will be learning about the language, but won't get much of a base. If it's a summer course, do the one that's the most fun (right level, everything), but remember that to keep it up, they will need some way to continue exposure. I'd look into finding an ESL conversation partner from a local college who would trade English conversation for their own language.

BTW, I took German when I was young, used it to help the future mother-in-law of a friend who married a German navigate in the US for a week. Then I learned French fluently and I use it all the time because I am motivated to do so.

There are some cool brain studies coming out about the different ways children store L2 compared to adults.

My DS6 is taking Chinese, his choice.

Where can I find a Chinese program or curriculum?

Cindi,

Have you looked into finding a native speaker to teach your child? My son decided he wanted to study Arabic--not a language I have ANY experience with!--and we lucked into the fact that the mom of one of his brother's classmates is a native speaker. He took private lessons from her all year long. It was $12 per hour for one-on-one instruction. I thought that was a bargain!

If we hadn't stumbled across his teacher as we did, my plan was to check at local universities and/or at houses of worship where native speakers of the language might attend. I might also have posted something at a Mediterranean specialty shop.

Just another idea. It's always better to learn from a native speaker, I think!

Cindi,

Have you searched your area via google? I live in Austin and we have a strong Chinese community. We have the Austin Chinese School which meets on the weekend. My understanding is this is a norm. All my friends that are Chinese send their children to that school and it is for anyone.

The other suggestions of local universities is a great one and a lot of them allow for auditing or at least you should talk to the schools so they can direct you in the right direction.

Cindi,

I'd look for a local business in your neighborhood that is run by a Chinese family and then work on your relationship with them. Then indicate you are looking for a language tutor or Chinese babysitter. They will then help you find one. (You will then owe them a favor. ) The best immersion will be a daily babysitter with kids who speak only the target language. Failing that, traditional Chinese school with occasional immersion is your next bet.

Good luck!!

Thanks! I will check out your suggestions.

I'll in throw my support for Spanish. I use it frequently at work. Although we have translators and my fluency isn't what I'd like, it is great to know what is going on in the conversation and every once in a while throw in a key phrase or two. I haven't studied it formally since high school, but since the groundwork is there, it is coming back to me fairly easily. Our translator thinks I have potential!

DD11 is going to take Spanish every day from here on in. She took one semester of Latin at school, which has helped with analysis of word roots. I can't see continuing with Latin, although it is popular at school for some reason.

I was amazed to see they offered Spanish, German and French starting in 6th grade here and all students must take each language for 9 weeks (one quarter). When I was in school we didn't start a foreign language until 9th grade!! I know earlier is better (hey, I still was a French major and learned Portuguese in grad school).

I'm bumping this one because like others, I'm doing the 'enrichment' scramble this time of year.




Discovered today that our local public library affords us access to Mango.

It seems to be focused more on conversational languages, as opposed to written ones.

DD11 and I have come to the (sad) conclusion that school is basically turning out to be for teaching her how to efficiently complete tasks that she doesn't particularly want to do, or those that seem pointless or repetitive in the extreme. And we had such high hopes for high school. Darn you, spiraling pedagogy!! My kid learned Newton's laws of motion and how to identify metaphors the FIRST time, thank you very much.
Anyway. Rant off.

DD is interested in Greek literature after reading some excerpts from the Odyssey, and wants to learn to READ Greek. I realize that the Mango programs are probably not the best choice there, but they do have the attractive property of being, well... free.


If she seems serious about the interest in a few weeks' time, then maybe I'll consider investing in something more serious for self-study.


At this point, ANYTHING that gives her a little self-pacing and autonomy is much needed, however. Poor kiddo. High school is turning out to be more work than before... but without a commensurate jump in the expectations of the underlying thought devoted to that work. No more analysis or critical thinking is expected than ever before, in other words. She took a 'senior' elective that is apparently regarded as a "killer" course last term (Economics), and frankly, it was still mostly memorization-based, and she aced it. Slam dunk for the A+-- it was just a total pain in the neck to keep nitpicking for the 98% all through it. (Not worth it IMO... but what do I know.) DD feels terribly disappointed. I sure hope that the AP coursework hasn't been similarly watered down to remove all traces of analysis, extension, and integrative learning. But I'm becoming fairly cynical about the whole thing; perhaps school is merely a means to an end (ie-- a stellar official public school transcript). Bleh.

With Greek, it's not just the conversational vs. written aspect you have to consider, it's the differences between modern, Classical and Homeric Greek. Modern is different enough from the other two that, if it's all Mango provides, it wouldn't be much help for your daughter, given the interests you describe.

Dear HK,

In re: Greek, do you know textkit? (www.textkit.com) It's a wonderful forum, full of keen people self-studying Latin and Greek (and some of them are also doing wild and wacky things like Old Irish and Old Church Slavonic...). They are super-helpful (and very knowledgeable--there are several Classics profs there, too); there are lots of free downloadable textbooks there as well. They occasionally run study groups where a bunch of people work through a book together, with weekly assignments and so on. You mentioned Homer--one of the freebies there is Clyde Pharr's Intro to Homeric Greek book (works through Book I of the Iliad as you learn the language).

There are links to tons more free downloads available here:

http://www.edonnelly.com/google.html

There are more study groups here:

http://www.quasillum.com/greek/greek-activities.php

There is just so much terrific (and free!) stuff out there for learning classical languages--she might find this just the ticket for a mind-expanding, really worthwhile exercise.

Good luck to you both!

peace
minnie

PS As hip points out, she'd need to decide which dialect she wants to learn (Homeric, Attic, Koine, or modern); there are more Attic resources out there than probably anything else, so that's a consideration (some of the main still-in-print ones are the one by the Joint Association of Classical Teachers, Mastronarde, Groton, Luschnig, Shelmerdine, Saffire & Freis, and Balme & Lawall's Athenaze--and of course there are dozens and dozens of free nineteenth-century books designed primarily for British schoolboys!).

Koine has also a lot of books available (and some are aimed at younger learners: Elementary Greek, Greek for Children, Hey, Andrew, Teach Me Some Greek!, etc.--I saw a really neat one lately called Polis [ http://poliskoine.com/site/ ]--it's sort of "immersion" Koine--you'd need to know French, too, though, as that is the language of the explanations in the book).

I love Homer, too, so that's where we started, even though there aren't as many choices for learning materials--apart from the Pharr book, there is a book by Frank Beetham, which concentrates on the Odyssey (Book V, I think), and Schoder and Horrigan's two-volume Reading Course in Homeric Greek (which is the one my eldest and I have been working through--it's also centered on the Odyssey). Beetham and S&H are still in print (and therefore not free). Some Attic textbooks (e.g. JACT's Reading Greek course) also have a chapter or two about learning to read Homeric Greek after having learned Attic.

Hope that helps a little!

PPS There are good reviews of most of the in-print books at the Bryn Mawr Classical Review website, so you can get a bit of a feel for what each one is like.

I found a few copies, two of them fairly inexpensive, of a book on Homeric Greek that's user-friendly for beginners:

http://www.amazon.com/Akroama-Euripides-Homer-Two-Greek-poets/dp/0884080625

It has Euripides' play 'Medea' and books 9 and 10 of the Odyssey (the Kyklopes, Kirke etc.) in large print, with line-by-line vocab on the facing page. I recommend it highly -- I found it very easy to use in high school. You'd need some grammar under your belt first, of course; I used Crosby & Schaeffer.

WOW-- thank you so much!

This is terrific. Exactly what I was looking for. She's at least excited about the Mango program, and it suits her learning style pretty much perfectly (she's an auditory/vocal + visual learner)... but assuming that she retains the interest for a few weeks (you know, once it requires actual effort) I'm going to need additional resources for her. The Iliad as a learning tool-- genius.


A friend of mine (fluent in several Greek dialects) already said some of the very same things (as posts above do) to me about dialect and such. She also has an EG child just a bit older than my own who has been learning Greek off and on. She did say that she thought self-study might be pretty tough in Hellenic Greek given my complete and total lack of background. On the other hand, I can 'read' Greek phonetically just fine. (Thank you, Science and Mathematics... I know what rho looks like and I know what it says. LOL)

Just a quick note, HK--

The greekstudy list ( http://www.quasillum.com/study/greekstudy.php ) is just about to start a new beginners' group, using the Beetham text, so if she wants to have a go at Odyssey V with a keen group of people (and lots of well-informed help), now's the time!!

mm

Howler,

I have Rosetta Stone for Greek. It includes reading, writing and speech. It's the homeschool version. If your DD gets serious, let me know. We'll see if we can work something out.

DS really enjoyed it, but has moved over to chinese because it is offered at his school. He wants me to buy RS Chinese for the summer so that he doesn't loose anything during the break.

This is really a loaded question and so hard to answer. I guess instead I'd ask you these questions:

- In your area what languages are you most likely to find native speakers of so your child can meet with them directly and practice?

- Do you want your child to learn business languages (Mandarin, Japanese, German, or Portuguese)? a language that is thought of to be "pretty" like French or Italian? a language that is usefully locally (possible Spanish if you live in certain parts of the US)? or something that will help them build on other languages (like Latin or Greek)?

- What are your child's interests? If he/she likes science than German is probably the language I'd suggest. However, if he or she is more interested in arts/literature it could French/Italian/Spanish etc.

Obviously, you also need a tutor/language course instructor that works well with your kid and speaks the language well (I'm not a fan of teachers who are not native speakers, for instance...). I'd also really check with the instructors ahead of time. I visited my little sister's Spanish class one day and even though it was Spanish 3 the teacher spent most of her time explain the grammar to the kids in English. I'm someone who thinks all languages class (yes, even from day 1) should be in that respective language. I've been through classes like that and ones that weren't and you can't even compare the difference when it comes to learning the language.

Good luck with your choices! FWIW, we're a bilingual household and I'm debating teaching DD my third language but have put it on hold for the moment. It's a tricky road to navigate but I'm hoping she'll appreciate knowing at least one other language some day.

newmom, you're right-- those are really insightful and meaningful questions, and your advice is very good as well. If I were the one driving this bus... I'd have her do German as a first foreign language... because I have a reasonable background in German (well, Dutch, actually, but I have formal instruction and actual usage of German as well).

Failing that, my own inclination is that the following things are true of the options available locally:

German-- easy to continue since it's common enough in foreign language programs, there is enough crossover with Anglo-Saxon languages that it's reasonably easy for English speakers to start with, we have a neighbor who is fluent (and already a friend of my DD's), and I can help.

Latin-- LOTS of resources and lots of people who've taken enough of it (my DH included) that she'd have plenty of help, it is a "foundational" foreign language that unlocks French, Spanish, Italian, and Portugese. She might later find this most useful since her interests are in jurisprudence, and therefore a passing familiarity with Latin is useful to say the least.

Spanish-- lots of opportunity to practice in the real world, as we live in a very diverse community whose primary second language is Spanish. Both parents would be interested in side-by-side learning there.

Czech-- the neighbor who is fluent in German is a native Czech speaker.

French-- I can (bumblingly) fight my way through most French up to about 8th-10th grade reading level. Speaking is another matter, but at least I have passing familiarity with grammar and verb conjugations, gender of nouns, etc. Years of high school French and I can open a conversation with "Comment �a va?" Too bad all I can do after that is pick up about every third word and look puzzled. LOL.


______________________________

Those are MY preferences. However, with an 11yo strong-willed EG/PG child, much of that becomes irrelevant. SHE wants to learn Greek so that she can READ in Greek.

Okay, so bottom line is that this is why I studied German in college-- it was pragmatic given my major. It has actually come in quite handy over the years since there is still literature that is published en Deutsch and NOT in English, too. Being able to accurately translate a materials and methods section, as well as figure legends in conclusions sections has turned out to be quite a boon.

So I have to respect that my daughter's reasons might well be fine for her. Greek and Latin are probably never wasted time no matter who you are or what you plan to do with yourself.

The other factor that I'm taking into consideration here is that this is a way of granting autonomy that my daughter is really craving educationally. In other words, my suggestions have to be just that-- suggestions. If I make them 'commands' or even 'coercive' seeming to her, she will lose all interest in a hurry. It can't be MY agenda, in other words, but she's also sensitive to criticism of her ideas. So if her dad and I logically point out why what she wants to do here is fatally flawed or a waste of her time, she may well back off-- but that doesn't mean that she'll take direction from us. She'll just give it up entirely. I'd rather that she did something her way than nothing at all.

We also have some real limitations financially, so "hiring" a tutor isn't really an option, unless she's willing to give up something ELSE to pay for it, or unless we can get a college student to do it for almost nothing.


_____________________________________
Is the RS program Koine? Or another dialect?

At this point, I really don't know how intense DD's interest is likely to remain. She can blow hot and cold with things, so it's possible that she may decide that Greek is not her thing if she isn't making as much progress as rapidly enough as she'd like.

_____________________________________


MM, thanks for the tip on the new study group starting. Is this listed on the website somewhere, or only via listserv? Ie- how would she sign up? (Sorry if that is self-evident, but it didn't seem obvious to me with a cursory look over there.)

Hi, HK,

Sorry I wasn't clear--you do indeed have to subscribe to the list; here's their subscription page:

http://nxport.com/mailman/listinfo/greekstudy

Hope that helps!

peace
minnie

HowlerKarmer

My apologies! I didn't realized you had bumped this thread and asked a new questions so I was actually responding to the original post for elementary kids.

For your 11 year old I'd definitely try and pursue her interests! There's a pretty big difference between a mom who wants to introduce a foreign language to a young child that might not have a preference and a child pushing for a specific foreign language. Sorry for the confusion and it serves me right for not reading the other comments first!

I definitely agree with what others have said, though, about the difference between modern and classic Greek. I actually had a good friend who was Greek and while she could read and understand both, classic Greek was practically a second language to her.

FWIW, I did the same as your daughter. My stepdad warned me not to take Latin in high school because I wouldn't have any opportunities to speak it and it's no longer used. Well, I took it and even though it was fun for a bit I quickly lost interest due to lack of opportunities to speak it. Ditto when I took Chinese in high school too. I ended up taking German in college and that was great because I could study abroad and picked it up very quickly from there. DH's native language also came relatively quickly for me simply due to motivation and living with a native speaker who is great at explaining how to pronounce words correctly (not so great at explain the grammar, though, so you can just imagine how funny I sound when I speak!).

Anyways, good luck to your daughter. I'd say, follow her interest but also keep some other options open in case she does decide it's not worth her effort and wants a language that is more easily accessible (she might actually have an easier time learning Greek if she focuses now on a language that is easier to learn and that pursues Greek in college where there will be more resources and she'll around know how to learn a foreign language)