Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments My Plan

Background:
I have a DD6 which I have recently learned was gifted. I am in the process of coming out of gifted denial and paying more attention my DD abilities and needs. We attend a good magnet school which has gifted pull-out for math & science.
The Story:
My DD6 STAR reading level was 3.1 grade going into 1st grade this year and it has barely moved as this year has progresed, while most of the other 1st graders levels are increasing dramatically.
I casually asked the teacher about this and was told that it is nomal for advanced readers' pace to slow down while the others are still moving up. And as long as she keeps reading books at her level she is fine.
Well after reading the "Do things even out in 3rd grade" post I began to question this concept.
So, I called a few other GT 1st grade parents at my school to see if they were noticing the same trend and suprise! My DD is not the only GT kid who has slowed down after reaching the 3rd grade benchmark.
Is this leveling normal or is it due to lack of language enrichment?
Does it take more than reading alot to stimulate reading growth?
So now comes the question how do we prove or disprove that our kids are leveling off due to lack of language arts enrichment?
So here is my plan....
I going to talk with one of the 4gr teachers at our school to see what they are doing for language arts. She told me the textbook that they are using and will hopefully give a vocabulary list.
I plan to use this reading text book and vocab with to my DD6 this summer and see what happens to our STAR level. Usually levels tend to drop or stay the same over the summer.
I figure if my DD scores higer on her STAR after having some higher level reading assignments,then I will have a valid argument to request additional language arts enrichment next year. If her level stays the same or dops then I will let the school have this one.
So, I would love to hear your thoughts, ideas, and even criticism on my plan.

My belief--for what it's worth:

There should be progress over the year. I have found that the lower level books can be really stupid--how can a kid develop a passion for reading when they're facing such inane stories (many times with poor grammar)?

My suggestion is to use the summer to visit the library and take out lots of fairy tales (from all different countries/cultures--our library has them divided into Native American folk tales, Russian, Asian, English, etc.). We must have read the Cinderella story at least a dozen different versions. Take out 20 at a time (10 fiction and 10 nonfiction about plants or animals or biographical profiles). Read to her and make it really fun.

Also get out books for her to read (I really liked the numbered books (Step? 1-4). On things like Pompeii, Snakes, Dinosaurs, the Titanic. Really help her look so they're not silly. Our summer goal was 100 books--keep a list on fridge recording book title.

I believe reading is the most important skill to be successful later on, even for math/science strong kids. It's so important to nurture love of reading and reflecting about what you've read. The AR system doesn't do much for reflecting, but if you're working together over the summer, she'll learn to do it on her own for next school year.

Floridama, wish I could offer you advice but we're going through something very similar. Our child is probably at the end of year 2nd level or early 3rd grade for reading, but DS isn't in the highest reading group in first. (They think there is an issue with comprehension, which I doubt. There is an issue with DS's willingness to write about what he's read.)

We basically unschool. We don't necessarily do vocab words and such, but we make available any reading material DS wants. DW will also, from time to time, do "projects" with DS like a whale project where he researched the topic and then write up a little report on it. We turned that into the school, but this could have also been a summer project.

We're slightly jaded at the moment, so we're really focusing on the enrichment opportunities outside of school. If the fourth grade teacher helps you, then great. Sounds like a good summer project.

JB

OH JBDad, I'm sorry you're jaded at the moment...things looked so hopeful in the beginning. But you never know what next year's teacher will be like.

As far as reading level, I didn't see my son slow up at a 3rd grade level. Now that he reads about 5th-6th grade level, I see a slowing...mostly b/c a lot of books start to get inappropriate for his age. IMHO, they should still be challenging. If she is getting every word correct when reading books in reading group it's too easy. That's at least what my teacher friend said.

And I wouldn't worry so much about levels....different teachers score differently. I would focus on cultivating a love of reading and giving your DD access to good books w/ lots of discussion about what she's reading.

Amen! I've been looking for chapter books for DD4. She needs something with at least some girl-appeal. I tried Junie B. Jones and was not impressed with the wretched grammar. For now, she seems to really enjoy DS7's second grade textbook (which he isn't wild about...).

Ramona and Beezus books will be good when she gets to that level (Floridama, have you tried them?).

If anyone has suggestions, I'm all ears.

Val

My daughter loved the Catwings series by Ursula LeGuin.

Val,
At 4, DS loved the following:
Magic Tree House
Geronimo Stilton
A-Z Mysteries

Thanks!

My DD is half girly girl, half tomboy. It's kind of trippy.

Val

I think I need to say that our school uses a computer test to screen reading level every 9 wks. It uses time, comprehsion, and working vocabulary to determine level.
I am sure if the test was on speed and comprehension alone she would be at amuch higher level. She is constantly reading higher level books and does great on her AR quizzes.
I think the problem is not lack of reading or reading progress but lack of working vocabulary at the 3rd grade level.
Which is why I am trying a structured approach this summer.

We don't even have reading groups, It is one size fits all, except for the AR requirements which are determined by level.



My DD use to love big apple barn which is about horses and now she likes Ramona and Judy Moody now.

Anyone use swaptee to trade books?

I found that when my DS was in first grade, he tested at 4th grade level reading at the beginning of the year. And he still tested at that level at the end of the year according to his first grade teacher. He could read at a higher level, but according to her had comprehension issues. Much like someone earlier, he just didn't want to write book reports in 1st grade when no one else was doing it. He would not read a long book unless he "got" it and enjoyed it. He is not known for his amazing work ethic or sticktoitiveness

Meanwhile at home, he read 4th grade books in an hour as brain candy and read many higher level books with increasing difficulty throughout the year. We never had any formal vocab or curriculum. I just really watched the lexile levels of books and shopped around for things he would be interested in.

I wouldn't necessarily believe the reading level the teacher is getting. Some teachers (like our 1st grade teacher) figured that once you were above grade level, it wasn't worth investing a lot of time to figure out what they should be reading.

Anyway - good luck! Hope you get a better teacher next year! We actually are homeschooling at this point.

My son liked some of the Cam Jansen mysteries for easy reading when he was 5 or 6 and he also liked DK books, but he really liked listening to me read books to him with more challenging vocabulary and I think that is why his reading level and comprehension kept growing.

We've started doing that! I read a chapter book (70-80 pages usually) to my three kids every Sunday lately. It's great for vocabulary for DD4 and DS7. I get a little hoarse by the end of the story, but it's a lot of fun.

Val

Val- Have your kids tried Frannie K Stein? My DS loves them! A little tomboy, a little girl mixed in. Well not much girl actually, but enough!

I read higher level chapter books to my DS- it usually takes us about three weeks to make it through. I'm almost done with Phantom Tollbooth now. We've also been reading the 39 Clues series. He loves the stories but the font and compressed pages are just too hard for his little eyes. He tries but often complains of headaches.

We love vocabulary here and try to incorporate big "wow" words into our everyday life. Anytime we come across a new, big word that isn't common, we usually talk about what it means and then try to use it for a few days. It's fun and we all get into it. Earlier this week we were playing with phenomenon, cacophony and diversify. Phantom Tollbooth has given us some crazy words!

I loved The Phantom Tollbooth when I was a kid (both book and movie)! Great idea!

Val

DS7 went into K with a 2nd grade reading level. His loved magic tree house books at that time. Throughout K, he advanced to about 4th grade level books. This year in 1st, he started out about 6th grade vocabulary and maybe around 4/5 grade reading level. We just took him into a psychologist to do IQ and achievement tests. He is currently around 7th grade vocabulary and 8th grade reading comprehension.

I do not believe in kids reading level even out by 3 grade. I don't even remember if DS was ever in 3rd grade reading level. He seemed to skip over them when he was ready.

For many years, I can see DS's reading and math level jumped and leveled off and jumped again. It is amazing how gifted kids works!

Thank-you Dottie for the STAR details,
I figure if they want to use STAR as a form of measurement than they should be giving us the tools we need to move forward.

Hitting the nail on the head.

Sometimes teachers will just say whatever fits with the results of your child's test.
In our experience with STARS reading, the scores jumped up and down over 4 grade levels within one school year. During parent night we were told that STARS is pretty accurate but later when DD11 (7 at the time)came back with above average scores we were told how inaccurate STARS was.
I would ignore STARS but make sure your child is allowed to read "just right" books in class even if their "just right" is much higher than other kids.
Wendy

Late jumping in here, but FWIW ...

My ds was easily reading things like Beverly Cleary on entering K. They didn't differentiate to our satisfaction, and his pleasure reading level dropped massively over that school year -- it picked back up over the summer.

This fall, he started a new school and was bumped to a third-grade reading group. What we discovered was that there is a lot more to doing a language arts class than just reading level. With that two-year subject acceleration, ds was expected to do a lot more critical reading (something he'd never had experience with) and more writing. Plot, character development, predictions. All of these skills need to be taught, and my ds did have a "catch up period" going from the end of K to beginning third grade in reading, even though he'd started K reading around that level. Don't get me wrong -- he's well placed at this level. He just needs to put in a bit of effort, which is exactly what we wanted!

Just keep in mind that there's a lot more to "reading" than just the reading.

My dd was reading at above 4th grade level when she was 5 years old and was reading chapter books at about 3 1/2 or 4 years old.

She is now in 4th grade (skipped 3rd) with a wonderful language arts teacher. She came home last week and informed me that "this is the year I learned to read". She is looking at books in a completely different light. Appreciates good literature at a different level now. Her teacher does not limit the level they can read at and actually encourages kids to stretch themselves. The kids in that class read anywhere from grade level to high school level books.

Yup. This was an issue for us because they stopped when they determined that DS was at the end of the year reading level wise. We pointed out that as part of his assessment for his GIEP they needed to continue to see what his actual reading level was. Unfortunately they tested him on a bad test day (which was also his birthday) which put him somewhere near end of second grade/beginning of third.

So we just let him be his own guide. He can read what he finds interesting at home.

We're a bit jaded in part because they haven't made a lot of accommodations for DS (beyond the standard enrichment) nor have they made any accommodations for his age (after returning from school breaks it takes him a few weeks to re-adjust). They are doing some supplemental math for him in his homeroom which as been good news for us...

JB

Hopefully I don't sound contradictory here, but yes, this is why even though I think they don't have DS assessed correctly, I am okay with him not being in the highest reading group. For this year if our son needs to work on communicating that (via writing) it's okay.

At home for pleasure reading, he reads at a much high level.

Not to get off topic from the original post, but just as a "here is what we are doing" comment.

JB

Yep, I agree Mia but it seems usually there is just reading level. I'm happy though that my Kers teacher has him writing main character, plot, conflict, resolution for his reading group books which is easier with a book that is at his comfort level rather than his challenge level. My 3rd grader didn't get any of that until 2nd grade, and he was reading higher than my Ker currently is.

Well, sure ... TBH, I have no idea what "reading level" my ds is. It depends on how they're defining it! I'll be interested to see his MAP results for the spring. Anyway, "reading level" is such a nebulous term. I just wanted to point out that language arts as a school subject is often quite different than "reading level," which is often based on the frequency and length of the words in the text. Going on that, ds probably has quite a high "reading level," but no way is he ready to be participating in a 7th grade English classroom.

(ETA: Sorry, I mean "reading level" as defined for things like Lexile. I have no experience with STAR testing or what they're looking for. I think "readiness for learning" level can be ver off with the kind of classroom assessments that often done as quick-and-dirty screeners.)



Completely agreed! I don't have a problem with my ds using easier books for critical thinking skills. He's enjoying higher-level books on the side, and learning the skills needed to dissect a book while reading "easier" books.

That seems logical to me; he doesn't need to work on the mechanics of reading while he's at school -- he does that quite well on his own! He needs to work on the thinking behind the reading. No need to make the learning material overly challenging, as long as he's stretching on the side; I'd rather have him focus on the assignment rather than on the actual act of reading. Frees up more brain space.

(That said, ds *is* subject accelerated. I'd be having at least a small fit if he were reading "first grade" level books and being expected to think critically for those.)

Hi Floridama,

I like your plan and will be interested to hear how it works. I've been having similar thoughts lately about my DS6 - he hasn't progressed at all in maths in a year, and not as much as I would have expected in reading/writing. They may only be little people, but I think they can be pretty quick at absorbing subtle messages from teachers/peers about what they 'should' be doing.

But we've got a meeting in a couple of weeks with the principal of a school that's recently been getting a profile for doing good things with GT kids - it turns out his own son is GT, and went to a GT school, so I'm really looking forward to the meeting. Wouldn't it be lovely to be confident that your child's teacher wasn't trying to put brakes on.

bkd

My teacher friends tell me that teachers generally score students a grade level below what the parents think they are. Our school places an emphasis on choral reading...all the kids in the group reading at the exact same time so you're forced to read at the pace of the slowest reader. Drove me insane as DS would come home reading like this out of habit. It would take him a few pages to get back to his normal reading speed.

My son was able to read and comprehend at around a 5th grade level when he was five, and it was common for him to read a few paragraphs and then then talk about what he read, making up jokes and analogies and predicting what might happen. He stopped reading Magic Treehouse books after Kindergarten and I think it was because he thought the books were too predictable. He told me if I liked them so much I could read them by myself. This is also about the time he started complaining about the way some books were written and he would tell me how he thought the author could have made the books a little more interesting. He wanted rich vocabulary and books that made him think and he hated what he thought were short choppy sentences that a lot of the kids books were written in. I remember his gifted public schooled friend who was four years older was reading books like Hank the Cowdog and that was typical of what they had available in the small school library. They didn't have the kind of books or magazines my son liked to read and nothing to encourage kids like mine to keep reading.

I know the school would have required more writing than my son would have been capable of if he had been grade skipped. Because he has motor dyspraxia and hypotonia he would not have been able to keep up with the writing. I think holding back kids to the level of their weakness and not allowing them to progress in the area of their strengths is so wrong, but there are too many teachers at our public school who disagree with me. There are people in my family who disagree with me. They use my son's cousin, a high school football star, as an example. He was held back a year, which is the custom here, and made high grades all through school even though he didn't have time to study very much because football took up a lot of his time and he made a high enough ACT score that he is being offered scholarships. I knew he was smart, I never doubted that for a minute because he used to stay with me a few days a week when my son was about 4 and I noticed that he liked the same science shows and was good at answering science trivia questions. But when I showed my son's cousin how my son at four could read 5th grade level books and answer questions about what he read, the cousin still said he wasn't old enough to start Kindergarten because kids should be six when they start Kindergarten even if they are really smart.

That comment is like poking a stick at a bear around here. Hope your cousin isn't online.

I think I liked the Magic Tree House books better than my kid also.

Yippee!

I'm hoping that it's working out in math and science at least. I guess the school doesn't see supporting above level Language Arts as part of it's mission.
Well that depends on what you mean by 'barely moved' do you mean that there is 1 months worth of grown in months, 6 months worth, or 'only' 10 months worth. Due to our OverExcitabilities, lack of Reference, and Outer Directed Perfectionism, some Gifted Parents get all freaked out if there is 'only' 10 months of growth in 10 months. So I'm just checking...even if it's 6 months of growth, given that they isn't any instruction at his readiness level, I wouldn't be upset about the lack of growth. I would still be upset at the wasted time and lack of instruction, but that's a different question, isn't it?


this is an interesting question, and this topic, which carries a lot of emotional baggage for me as a gifted ex-child and as a mother of a gifted child, has been well discussed here in this thread.

For example, I made a consious decision in late high school to use the smallest and simplested words whenever possible because I decided that what I really wanted was to communicate, even though I loved my natural vocabulary, which was chock full of long and interesting and subtle words, I trained myself to really put communication first. I remember when I was just starting to post here, catching myself wanting to use a long word, reflexively substituting a short word, and then telling myself that here, I can post as naturally as possible. I actually had hand sweat while breaking that old habit. Karmically, my husband sort of drifted into the same practice. Guess who doesn't have a terrific vocabulary? DS! Guess what I mean by 'not terrific'? At age 12 he was stumped by more than half of the SAT practice words. LOL - do you think that I'm setting the bar a bit high? Even for a PG boy who is strongest in Vocab? What was it that I said about OEs, lack of reference, and perfectionism affecting our perspective a few paragraphs ago?

So yeah, getting the 4th grade vocab list (and 5th and 6th also, while you are at it) and making those words part of your daily life or part of your afterschooling is good from my perspective. I would encourage you to 'dress it up' and use the vocabulary to learn about something that she is actually interested in, whatever that may be. I'm great at this (as that's how I got through my dull school days) but I know it isn't so easy for other people, so post here what she is intersted and I'll give you 11 ideas, one or two of which might be useful.

But, back to:

I think that it takes 'being a writer' to ultimatly stimulate reading growth. When my son(age 12) and I listen to audio books together, we'll excitedly call out 'amazing word choice' and 'killer opening hook' and'smooth transition sentence' and 'just 5 more minutes - I can't stop now!' DS only knows about word choice and hooks because that's what they taught him in language arts about how to write!

Of course, at age 6 he was a reluctant writer, hated to add details, and the biggest thing that could get him to the stage where he could learn to write was learning to type. I was also a reluctant writer in elementary school, and when I was 12 my mom sent me to summer school at our local high school and I learned to type on a Manual Typewrite. Talk about radicle acceleration. I felt very uncomfortable at first, but I had to be strong, I was escorting 9 year old brother! It was difficult, but it took. I still remember the freedom and excitement of finally being able to get my thoughts down as quickly as they came to me. OK, not really as quickly, but close enough. I can type faster than I can talk.

I'm quite sure that my son's fast typing at age 10 was part of what impressed his private school enough to allow them to gradeskip him. And with the ton of homework they poured on him, the typing really helped, especially since he was too young to stay up till midnight like the other kids in his grade.

Is 5 too young to learn to touch type? Probably to young to succed, but I would still add it to the Afterschooling list. There are lots of programs that teach kids how to touchtype properly. Even if she only learns the homekeys this summer, and can only type 'dad has sad gas. a lad had a sad fad. jass had a gaff laff.' by the end of the summer, that would be amazing.

You can also work on writing by videocaming her telling a story, then typing bits onto paper and having her move the parts around and add to them. Or just sit together at the keyboard and type while she talks. You can post them here, and we will applaud. She can make pictures, or take digital photos. Anyway, I'm a big beliver in reading and writing informing each other.

I also love the books '6+1 Writing Traits' which claims to be teaching writing, but in my mind are teaching those upper level reading skills that are rarely taught to elementary school students.

I can't get into a reading program that asks one to identify the good guy and the bad guy. I mean, is that really a difficult job? If a child can't do it for a book, can they do it for a cartoon? Once the questions become 'Is the good guy completely good?' 'Do you like the good guy?' 'Is the bad guy completely bad?' 'How do you feel about the bad guy?' 'What does the writer do to lead you to feel these ways?' then i start to see the benifit. Even more, I particularly like to compare two books on these questions, perhaps both by the same writer or on the same topic. Isn't it fasinating the Lois Lowrey uses the idea of memories being transfered from one character to another in both 'The Giver' and 'Gossamer.' That's got to be a personal metaphore for how she views her role as a writer, no?

So, for me, the only real question in life is 'how can one person actually understand another person's mind?' so when it comes to reading, after one can decode a fair number of words, the interesting question is 'how can reading this book help me understand the writer's mind?' - 'What do the writer's choices say about the way her mind experiences living?'



While I totally love your 'experimental' approach to this frustration, I wonder if you'd be better off saying to the 4th grade teacher: 'I have this vauge feeling that DD needs a bigger challenge in reading next year. Can you help me with the specifics? What reading skills to you measure to judge if a student needs more challenging work?'

Ah, the direct approach!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

So very very wrong!
And I would add, that not only should schools 'allow them to progress' that they actually have an obligation to help them progress!

I'm not exactly sure how this could be done cost effectivly, but even if it can't be done in every single instance, I think that it is the goal to aim for - to blow the roof off of anything that is keeping any child from getting the thrill of learning anything at their readiness level.

Grinity

Floridamom,
Has she read the first Harry Potter yet? That book is very inviting because there are lots of large impressive words that are defined right in the context. Because of this, that books was the turning point for many developing readers who hadn't 'caught fire' yet. If it's above her level now, start reading it aloud for a few nights, and then once she's hooked, let a day or two go by being 'too busy to read', and see if this encourages her to pick it up on her own. I wish that I could still pull sneaky stuff like this on my 12 year old, but those days are over!

Grinity

To be specific were a 2.8 9 months later 3.1 and I have found 3 other moms who are in our grade who have similar #'s and are also concerned with the lack of growth.
We are all planning on discussing this matter with our teachers at our upcoming portfolio meetings.
And we are hoping that our comments will get changes made for next years 1st graders.

I do think that is the best approach to help my child as an individual, and I may end up on that road, but first I want to focus on bigger picture, What changes need to be made at my school to help kids like mine? What can we do to promote these changes?

As for typing and writing I love it! Our school psycologist had reccommended typing as the best FREE summer enrichment project...after reading

Wish I had learned to type properly

It is sooo funny you mentioned Harry Potter because she asked me last week if she could try it. I traded for it on swaptree and should have it any day now.
However my DD suffers from a very active imagination and is prone to have intense fears, so I told her I had to read it first.

It is too intense for some children, but many don't. Good luck!

I would strongly urge you to 'compartmentalize' when it comes to this tricky and delicate territory. In your daughter's classroom just keep your nose to the 'this is who she is and what she needs' grindstone. Then, in other contexts, you can chain yourself to a tree or whatever. Seriously. It's hard enough for the teacher to 'get' our kids. Don't confuse the issue by 'fighting for the bigger picture' at the same time.

You may be curious why I urge this so strongly. I'm not really sure why, just that this is what I've seen work and this is what I've seen fail. But if I was to go on a limb and speculate, I would say that most of these gifted children have parents who were once children who needed a lot more than we got. So when we fight for 'the greater good' a bit of our own personal struggles gets dreged up along with it. And since no one can go back in the past and give you what you needed back then, there tends to be a extra dash of emotion that really clouds the situation. I'm one of those parents who went to great lengths not to make the same mistakes that were made with me. It made me feel better, but I'm not sure how much it helped my son. Each child is individual, and has individual needs that change over time. Wow is it ever difficult to truly experience another human, but that is what we as parents are being asked to do. So, that's my best guess as to 'why' we see over and over again that one must seperate our 'political' struggles from our advocacy.

Really, why not open a school yourself and do things right? Or run for the school board? Or get involved in State politics? But leave the individual teachers at your daughter's school out of it.

Hope that's not 'Too Much Information' - and of course we want to hear how things are going no matter what you decide, but part of my picture of 'what a friend is' is someone who will stand our at the lighthouse and ring the warning bell.

Love and More Love,
Grinity