Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy GIEP meeting this afternoon

Yet another attempt to get DS6 some decent challenge in math in the classroom. I end up feeling about one-inch tall in these meetings with a conference room full of administrators (not too far off from my actual height but I'm sure many of you know about this feeling )

Wish me luck... Oh, and I'll be thinking of you Crisc - our meetings are at about the same time. Mine's at 2:00.

I hope my pre-meeting chant will work this time.
Must not interrupt if they say stupid stuff...
Must not interrupt if they say stupid stuff...

Yes, good luck Jool. Do you know what you are asking for? Or looking for the school to come up with something?

good luck Jool! Maybe it will help to take notes every time you want to say something when they are saying something infuriating.

Good luck!

JB

Good Luck

Thanks for all of your support. Good idea about the note taking SP Girl. 'Neato, I'll be "suggesting" online learning such as EPGY in place of classroom math. This is a followup to the vague GIEP they came up with in Dec. Since DS likes to learn independently, I think this *may* be the most viable solution, at least for the rest of the year. I'm also going to ask about a plan to help DS's organization as well.

45 minutes to go--I'm thinking of both you and crisc right now!

Good vibes....good vibes...good vibes...

Thanks Kriston! I'm off to the school...

Good luck Jool! I know the feeling.:)

The meeting made me and . Hope your meeting went better than mine, Crisc. Our district is so rigid, I realized halfway through the meeting that the it was a waste of time. I learned that they will *not* test the limits of his levels in math and will *not* provide him with above-grade level material for the rest of the year (even though he knows most of the curriculum). He has to sit through the regular math. Period. It was very hard to endure over an hour of edu-speak about how everyday math is challenging for every child with all of the "extension" activities and spiralling and blah blah blah... Thanks for letting me vent. Okay, time to break open my stash of dove chocolate...

Rigid school systems are stinky! I'm so sorry, Jool!

Mourn as needed, but I'll press on. Just please feel free to ignore this until you're ready to deal with it...

So where does that leave you? What is your next step? Will you escalate the issue, or are you going elsewhere?

UUgh!! DD6 is doing Everyday Math and it's so slow. I looked at the workbook at the beginning of the year and realized there wouldn't be anything new and challenging for her. I asked the teacher about pre-testing and compacting but no luck. Instead she agreed to let DD work on a workbook I sent in. She does the more challenging stuff after she's completed her Everyday Math journal.

It's frustrating because with the MAP results there's good information about what she's mastered and what are the next things to learn. Unfortunately the school doesn't seem to be using this information to differentiate the curriculum much.

Thanks everyone for your support. G3, I did (in a non-threatening way) remind them of the law, both in a letter beforehand and at the meeting. They said that present levels "according to the district's policy" have already been tested. (88% in Dec. on a grade 3 placement test in math, where 90% is required by the district to even do further testing to see how much he knows of the curriculum in grade 4, 5, etc.). The curriculum specialist, gifted supervisor, and curriculum supervisor all know I know the law, yet they do nothing.

Oh, and on the placement test, 90% is mastery at the *end of the year*. He got 88% in Dec!

hugs Jool.

(Whine alert): I know.... The idea of due process is just so daunting....

I think you're allowed to whine...

Today.

Tomorrow we'll expect a complete plan of attack! :p


(Totally kidding! Too soon to kid? I hope not...)

Kid away Kriston! And I think if you weren't kidding you'd be right I don't think I can wait until tomorrow to start planning, though. I can plan an attack at the same time I whine!

I agree that the choices are pretty limited, Dottie. I think that's a very helpful thing to keep in mind, too.

Sometimes fewer choices is good though. If there are only 4 basic choices--and #1 is pretty much unacceptable, I suspect --then that makes it easier to decide what to do.

We're here to talk it through, Jool!

Thanks for helping me clarify my thinking by laying out the options Dottie. You're awesome


1. Don't think I can accept the status quo. There's something in me that just can't back down when DS is not learning math.

2. Thing is, the school and teachers are good overall. Probably better then most in that the kids are well-behaved, they emphasize respect and cooperation, the art teacher is *fabulous*, he likes school (except math), etc... From what I've heard about private schools in our area, they're not much better at educating HG+ kids.

3. I don't feel homeschool is the best answer at this point. But if he ever became miserable, I would consider it as a possibility.

4. So I guess filing for due process is the logical next step.

Yup. That makes sense.

What do you need to do to prep for that step? I wish I could be more helpful, but this is way out of my league. I'm happy to ask questions...

Okay, so I'm thinking through this due process thing. If I file now, it probably won't get to a hearing officer until a couple of months from now. Even if the hearing officer orders further present levels testing, it wouldn't happen until the Spring. I could request testing for subject acceleration in the Spring (knowing that they have *never* subject accelerated a child at this school - ever.). But they still wouldn't test any further than that. So I guess option 5 would be: Leave it at status quo and request testing for acceleration to 4th grade math when he is in 3rd next year.

There are also 2 types of due process: One where you try to get the district to comply. The time that they were not educated is lost, but the district has to start following the law. The other type is where you also seek compensatory education for the time that the child was not educated. Any opinions on which type to go for?

I have no idea how much legal assistance for due process would cost, but I suspect I would have sticker shock

It would probably cost less than it will cost the district though. From what I've heard about other recent gifted DP decisions, we have a good shot at prevailing. I hear you Dottie about not taking it lightly, though.

Hi Jool!
Sad and Mad right with you - but wow - what a treasure of friends you have here.

OK, sounds like you are well on your way to filing for mediation, DP change and DP damages...

What are you going to do in the meantime?

I would reccomend ((drumroll)) afterschooling. That way when they test him, he won't miss by one point or something irritating like that. ALEKS online math is a fast favorite. Or just get ahold of a Math book for above his grade level and start flipping through it and spot checking. Hothousing is entirely fair in this situation - and it will help him emotionally during the wait AND it will give him something to do.

What makes your kid amazing is that he learns so fast and deeply, not if he does or doesn't have particular skills at a particular moment in time - still, it's much easier for a school to 'see' what's amazing about a kid if they have the various checklist of skills for a particular grade. So hothouse away, have fun, enjoy every minute!

Smiles,
Grinity

Jool, right there with you. Following with interest. If we don't see action shortly, we'll be at the same crossroads you're currently at...

Good luck!

JB

Thanks all of you guys for being so supportive. Everyone's responses are so thoughtful. I'm verklempt!

Grin, you bring up a good point. He currently does afterschooling with a physics tutor, so he gets challenge there. But there could be benefit in going further with his skills so that he is able to really show on testing what he is capable of learning. Hmmm.... maybe I could do some present levels testing myself to use in DP... Any suggestions for online grade level testing?

Oh, Jool, I'm sorry. We were in your exact shoes last year at this time, and it went nowhere. We went with Option 2 and found ds6 a new school -- not only did I not have the patience to run it out with the school, but ds isn't the type of child who handles twiddling his thumbs well.

But looking back, maybe we should have advocated more, and I definitely recommend you fight the good fight -- the year is still young (sort of!). Go get 'em! That 88% must have just *killed* you; I'd have been fuming.

I second-guess myself on that, too, Mia. How much fight is enough? When is it "okay" to say, "I've had enough and I'm not going to do this anymore?" Obviously the answer is different for every person, but I sure still have lingering self-doubt about choosing to take my ball and go home instead of staying in the school and fighting.

But I also think we tend to take the route that suits our kids and ourselves. We are all intelligent people who try to do our best, so we usually make choices that make the most sense for us.

And after all, your DS and mine are both doing so well. You and I are (relatively) sane and getting along financially. So I don't think you/we should exercise that hindsight too hard. I think you made some good choices for your situation, and I'd like to think we did, too.

<patting back reassuringly>

It's just too easy to think about what we could have done. But as long as it all comes out okay, I don't think we have to do that to ourselves. (At least, that's what I tell myself...)

I have to fight against second-guessing too. I think second-guessing goes with the territory of being a concerned, active parent. (Why I'm still looking online to see if I could have gotten a better deal on the car we bought last month is another story ).

Kriston and Mia, in our situation, we are lucky to have weapons to "fight" with (state law). Not a guarantee, but at least I know we have a decent shot at getting our district to teach him something. There may have been a higher risk of a losing battle in your DSs situations. Our son is also not miserable. Not learning much, but happy overall. And he's only 6 so I feel we have a couple of years of leeway before there's a real danger of full blown underachievement syndrome, KWIM? Mia, is your son happier now? Kriston, if my son was noticeably unhappy with school as yours was, I would not risk his well-being by keeping him in the situation.

Yes, I agree completely. I think if I were in your shoes--and with your sparkling personality instead of my overbearing one!--I'd be a lot more likely to fight.

But we didn't even ask for significant accomodations. I mean, I never met with the principal. Not once. In my defense, we thought it through and considered that route, but felt like MAJOR changes had to happen IMMEDIATELY for DS7's well-being, and we didn't see what meetings could possibly accomplish under the circumstances and with the time constraints we felt were necessary.

So in short, I think we did the right thing, but I still worry that I wimped out...

As a direct result, I have such admiration--awe, really!--for those of you who fight that good fight.

Yes, Kriston I feel the same as you do. I spoke w/ the teachers but never went to the Principal. Based on what others said (including a teacher friend at the school), nothing much was going to change so we got out.

I'm always in awe at what you all have to go through.

Hi Jool,

I am a teacher in a large district in which GT falls under the special ed. umbrella - so our kids are protected by the same laws that protect LD and MR kids. There was a student last year whose mother had her tested, and she came out at the 82nd percentile. Despite that fact, the mom REALLY wanted her placed in a gifted program (one of those parents who wanted to tell her friends that her child is "gifted"), so she threatened litigation if the school chose not to place her. After much discussion, the school decided not to fight it, and the child was placed in a gifted pullout program.

What I'm trying to say it that, even though this child clearly didn't need gifted services, the school chose to go with the wishes of the parent rather than pay expensive legal fees to fight it. Sometimes even the threat is enough - especially considering the state of district budgets these days. Perhaps all it will take is for the school to know you're serious about getting your child's needs met, and that will be enough. At least around here, administrators jump whenever anyone mentions litigation!

p.s. Incidentially, this girl really floundered in the program - was always well behind what the other kids were doing, and her self-esteem plummeted. We talked her mother into pulling her at the end of the year, as even she could see the damage she was doing!

Thanks for your input Jen74. From the letters I sent (using language from our state law) and in the meeting, I *implied* that they were breaking the law and that perhaps a third party should decide... To maintain civility, I didn't make a direct threat. That said, the district always has the option of trying to settle these things even after we file for due process.

Just to clarify (you probably know this already Jen, but for others...) - the 88% was a curriculum-based placement assessment to see how much he knows of the current 2nd grade (and some 3rd grade) curriculum. The score is percentage of questions right on the test, not percent*ile* He was near mastery of the curriculum before the mid-point of the year without even being exposed to material at an accelerated rate. He was not allowed to test further than that to see how much he knew of the 3rd grade curriculum.

So... we did our own testing yesterday. We used Texas State assessment (TAKS) because it was free and available online. We gave him the test on his own, without any help. He wasn't allowed to ask us questions about the test and was told to just do his best and guess if he had to. He got 95% on the 3rd grade test and 90% on the 4th grade test. I hope that that info. will at least be looked at to back up our point that he should not have to watch other kids learn 2nd grade math.

Woot!

Jool -- agreed! It sounds like your situation isn't quite what ours was, and you've got some time and a good chance at getting something done. Yay! And great numbers on the test; think they'll pay attention, since it's an online assessment?

And thank you for asking -- yes, our ds6 is doing *great* at school this year -- he's at a private gifted school. They do mixed-grade small groups for math and language arts and he's accelerated 2+ years in both. He's sad when school is closed for whatever reason ... they had to write a "Thank you for ____" note for parents before Christmas, and ds wrote, "Dear Mama, Thank you for this school." Awww!

That is so sweet. This is what all the fighting and second-guessing and worry are about... You should definitely pat yourself on the back for finding a school situation that makes him this happy.

I'd be very surprised if the school even looks at the TAKS testing, since it's not based on their curriulum. I'm hoping if it goes to due process that a hearing officer will, though. Since our district wouldn't test the limits, we had to use *something*. <<shrug>> I figured the standards must at least match up a little.

And Linda, I'm in the same mode as you were with now wanting more for DS than I would have accepted to begin with. Not sure if it's the best attitude, but what I would have agreed for in that first meeting (not much) is not enough now. I want what the law says he should get.

I can't imagine a situation where resentment towards me for filing would be taken out on my kid. That would be just awful. Does it make a difference that our district is gigantic? I'd be interested in hearing about specific scenarios that you folks know about so I can factor this into my decision. The thought really scares me...

Honestly, I don't think I'd worry too much about retaliation, Jool. After all, if it came to that, you're probably going to pull him out for one of those other options (HSing or private school), right?

So what have you got to lose, really, aside from the time and money you spent on due process? Either there will be no retaliation and you're worrying about nothing, or else there is retaliation and you pull him out as you would have had to anyway if you didn't fight the situation.

I know the threat of retaliation seems horrible and scary, but I don't see it as a real factor in the decision-making process because it doesn't really change your options.

Love,

Spock

Good point Kriston.


LOL!

I'm glad you appreciated that. I always worry when I just snip the emotion right out of the decision-making process as if it weren't there that I'm not being helpful. But sometimes it does help clarify matters.

<shrug> I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam, right? And happily, it doesn't hurt my feelings if people completely ignore my off-beat advice!

What is hothousing?

It totally helps. I usually am more logic-oriented in my decision-making as well - just not when it comes to my kids. I have the momma-bear thing bad . So I very much appreciate your "voice of reason" Kriston. Thanks again

Usually it's thought of as a negative thing: pushing a child to achieve. Think parent-led learning, not child-led.

The classic example is from the Steve Martin movie "Parenthood." The Rick Moranis character's drilling of his pre-K daughter with flashcards is perfect. It's what people *think* we're doing with our GT kids when they don't get that we're not pushing, we're running along after and holding on for dear life to keep up!

In this case, Grinity is suggesting that getting the child to the right placement for his needs might require teaching him a few concepts ahead of time for the sake of the testing. She doesn't mean it as a lifestyle choice that is bad for the child. Just a temporary solution to a problem.

Does that help? We do sometimes speak in code...

Thanks, Kriston, for the explanation.

You're welcome!

BTW, I did respond to your PM this morning. Sorry to be MIA yesterday.