Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Any suggestions appreciated for behavioral issues.

If this has been talked to death, I apologize. I'm not entirely sure that this is GT related or not. It seems to have a slant that way though.

If you recall, our DS5 (almost 6 now) went into first grade this year. It wasn't a perfect fit, but we thought it was better choice for him. Initially the only problems we had were around the fact that full day school would tire him out. Some days, after school, he would have classical melt downs. We managed this a variety of ways, including having a "brain break" after school. By November we seems to have generally worked through those issues.

Since about December-ish, though, we have started seeing some very negative behavior at home. A lot of testing of boundaries (talking back, ignoring, etc) and some hitting/kicking too. Even "Santa is watching" didn't work and we had a few pretty rough days leading up to Christmas. For his age (not quite 6) he was being very defiant. He'll find any gap in logic and attempt to use it to justify doing (or not doing) some task.

Now it's starting to happen at school. This is really what is concerning. And what is strange is that it's frequently happening during activities he likes (art class or reading time or during lunch). For example, he ignored an aide when told to go in a particular line. Later he told me "I know what the difference between needs and wants it. She wanted me to go to that line, but she didn't need me go to that line." (Stop laughing... I know you want to as did I ).

We're meeting with the teacher to talk about this recent behavior change and to understand if this is recent at school. We haven't yet been able to implement changes (the GIEP isn't complete) so I can't think that is the issue. Or maybe not having change is the issue. Or maybe he's going through something else not GT related.

We're a bit concerned as it's very challenging with him. We're not push over parents (in fact we can be rather strict). He's a good kid. Not sure if he fits into the "Spirited" category.

Any suggestions or comments appreciated. Again, not sure it's related to GTness...

Thanks.

JB

Do you have the opportunity to spend time with him at school? I try to eat lunch at school with DD6 on a regular basis. That would allow you to be able to see first hand some of what is going on.

I liked the story I'd heard once of a woman with an older child who was having behavioral issues at school. She went to every class with him and sat at the back of the room. The problems went away shortly after that.

It sounds like it does fit the GT for this reason: he finds loop holes in the argument and he understands the difference between wants and needs. This goes back to disciplining a GT kid and how the famous Because I said so just doesn't work with these kids. Have you sat down with him and talked about why he made the choice he did. (Of course after the issue at hand is over.) Make it a neutral time when it is daddy and son discussing things. You might find he does have logic behind his reasons and maybe you need to explain socially accepted logic and why it might make sense to him but this is why socially it doesn't work. If you approach it on a neutral respectful way with him he might be more attentive with trying to understand where you are coming from.

I know. This is not a clear-cut case which is why I'm trying not to assume anything. He is (almost) 6. Could just be coincidence.

We've been prepping the boys for a while on the new baby just like we did with older DS previously (the boys get along very, very well).

To KatelynsMom's point we spend a good amount of time explaining reasons to DS as tiring as that can be! ... sometimes, though, it does have to get to the point of "because I said so." What we're trying to get him to understand is that at school you do have to follow all of the rules and follow what the aides say. I think he's testing boundaries there too and I don't think they get him yet.

This is definitely frustrating and concerning. Thanks for the comments and thanks for listening!

JB

Oh my you just described him to a tee. He constantly thinks he knows everything. Running late for dinner, but I'll be back online later tonight. I'd be interested in hearing more...

JB

I guess it could be the age...if you have been reading my posts lately it seems we are struggling with a lot of the same behavior issues.

I think ours has a lot to do with inappropriate placement. What does he say when you question him on the negative behavior?

Hi, JB--

Sorry you're having a little trouble, but I'm sure it will sort itself out in the end--he's always sounded such a lovely child to me, and of course that hasn't changed, even though he's having some bad days. And we all have these bumps in the road, sadly...

Don't know if this will be at all helpful or not, but at one point when I was having a bit of a defiance problem around here, I worked hard (in an extremely sappy way, I'm sorry to say!) on making the lads feel as though they were part of a team--we had a team cheer (Team Marx, Team Marx, we can do it, we can do it, yes we can, wahoo!) and a team song (If we all work together, we'll have fun, If we all work together, we'll get done...)--it was corny as could be, but it worked, ultimately (if they'd been much older or more jaded, Mummy would have had to be more subtle, but they were young enough that I got away with it!).

I don't want them to turn into little robots for whom the only virtue is compliance, but I do want them to recognise that there are times that when for the good of the group as a whole, one must be cooperative (have to put on the seatbelt, or else none of us can go to the park, or whatever). Our little teambuilding exercises seemed to help build that awareness for them, and life became more pleasant again.

Just another, possibly too trivial, thought--does he have a chance during the school day for some snacks? It's a long day for a little guy, and maybe he gets growly when he's hungry, like my guys do--I can always tell around here if I forgot to give people something to eat between meals.

Hope things sort out for you soon--

peace
minnie

I agree, G3. In our house, DH and I are the boss, period.

Now, I'm big on giving choices to my kids, but only when all the options are acceptable options for them to choose! That's my main way to make sure they get to express their need for freedom or whatever.

I do listen if they have a problem with something we're doing AND they have a solution to suggest AND they can present it respectfully (and quickly! No half hour debates!). That sort of problem-solving and use of rhetoric is a skill I want to cultivate, so I am willing to listen, and I don't say no until I'm sure I mean it. I really hear them out. But they know that no means no, and that I have a good reason for why I say no. When I say no, the discussion is over. But every once in a while, if they have a good point and they can make it in the right way, I do say yes. In this way, they feel heard and respected, and I find that I get more respect from them because they know I am a reasonable person who respects their ideas and treats them fairly.

However, the disrespectful, fighting type of arguing in any form does NOT fit into this skill set, and I shut that down immediately. My kids know the difference. If I had a child who didn't understand the difference, I wouldn't do any of this. The conversation must be predicated on respect for my authority or we don't have it at all.

FWIW...

Yes, we try to find a reasonable balance. Generally our problems resolve around transitions or changes. So, for example, I may have said "do this before that" and when I change that to "do this thing and that other thing then you can do that" the arguing begins. Same thing if we're modifying an existing rule. In a lot of these cases taking the time to explain the rationale can help prevent a meltdown.

There is definitely something going on. During the last week and a half we've seen problems at school. DW had scheduled a meeting with his teacher for tomorrow and now the principal has been invited. (DW was a little concerned about this, but I don't see it as a negative thing.) We are concerned, but the more we talk it through, the more DW is convincing me that this may be reflective of his lack of learning anything substantial at school. He doesn't actively complain about it, but one could argue that this is how he's showing us his frustration. It sounds similar to (but not identical to) what Kriston's DS went through.

JB

Yes, I'm definitely having flashbacks as I read your experiences and Crisc's! Both issues seem most probably to be tied to lack of sufficient challenge to me. (Though, as always, I could be wrong!) I'm hoping that the principal's presence is a good sign.

Reasons help my kids, too, JBDad. "Because I said so" is just not something I would ever say because that would cause so many more problems than it would solve! And honestly, I have a hard time faulting a kid for that. It wouldn't satisfy me to get that response; why would I think it would satisfy a child?

Seeing you and Crisc struggle reminds me of our last fall. DS5 (at that time) was in K Montessori at that time. We hit quite a rough spot. At the beginning I thought it was all due to him having no current obsession. He just got over his huge geography stage and there was no new interest on the horizon. Usually as long as his brain is busy he is pretty good otherwise he tries to use his brain power to get into mischief and trouble.

That was all I thought about it when it started but things got much worse than usually. The kid had me in tears on a few occasions and trust me it's not easy to get me crying. He never acted out at school but he was a terror at home. One of his worst incidents happened about 2 weeks before he asked to be homeschooled. A week after that I upset his teacher (another Crisc's post) and a few weeks later we had him finally tested.

Things did eventually get better, he got more challenging work at school and calmed down. He got into math (after the testing, of course) and things were sort ok in winter.

The thing is that I never realized that the school could be the culprit. I though that perhaps somebody was bulling him and quizzed both him and his brother about it. It didn't really occur to me that the school might have caused all that. I considered pulling him out for a few days and see if he was better but he was so awful at home that I really didn't want to try that and loose the few peaceful hours when he was at school.

I completely forgot how bad he got. This really wasn't a typical behavior for him and now it seems impossible to even imagine that he behaved like that. He gets in trouble these days too but it's very different from then. A few months ago I was looking for an old post on my blog and came across this stage. I couldn't believe that I didn't put two and two together. I still don't get how I could have missed that. If any of you told me that in last month that your child
1) faked being sick
2) has been acting horrible at home
3) asked to be homeschooled
I would tell you that chances were quite good that the school was the main reason for all that.

May be if you are in the middle of this you don't see it. I wasn't new to gt, I should have known better. I didn't have his tests scores in my hands yet but I knew he was gt. Perhaps because the school did give him better material than he would have gotten in PS K I thought it was ok. There were a few new things he got to learn (like another language and such) there and he was slowly getting moved up in math.

I should have pulled him then but I didn't. I freaked out when he asked to be hs. It was obvious enough to him or anybody who talked to me at that time. At the end I gave him a few days to think about it and told him that we would do it if he insisted. He changed his mind. I guess because I did look quite shocked and unprepared.

JBDad and Crisc, chances are your children have really hard time at school. I don't think 6 is a bad age. I think it's more about your children's first year in a f/t school. The kids realized that being at school is no fun that they are asked to do things which are boring and make no sense to them. They don't see the point in doing so. They just got back from a Christmas break which might have made things even worse by highlighting the difference between free unstructured time and school where almost nothing interesting is done. DS was 5 at that time and only in p/t K I don't even want to think how things would have turned out if he had been going f/t.

May be the reasons are different or there is more to it but I wanted to offer my point of view and personal experience.

Yup. I completely agree. We hit F/T 1st grade with no differentiated work, and the dam burst.

At least our DS was VERY clear about what the problem was. He left no doubt. He is his mother's son, I fear...

Ya' know how some kid's 'fit' certian parenting books? ((humor alert))

To me this sounds like a kid who has read Dr. Sylvia Rimm's 'Why Bright Kids Get Poor Grades.'

I have a love/hate relationship with this book. On one hand it has plenty of great parenting advice that specifically appliest to bright and gifted children. On the other hand, she spends 381 pages on 'it's all your fault' and then on page 382:



Imagine that!

I still find the book very useful because once you have a noncompliant defiant kid, you still have to parent it, even if the cause is school, and you have no particlar parenting problems. Mercy Me!

Remember that when Rimm talks about gifted kids, she is talking about the top 2 or3%. She is well aware of LOG, but sticks to advice that mainstream parents need. If a this is true for a kid who is '1 out of 50' then how much more true is it for kids who are 1 out of 500? Add in the frustration of being surrounded by age-mates who 'only want to play baby games' and you have the recipie for a 'I'm OK, You're NOT OK' worldview. IMHO.

So is it gifted-related?
You have two choices:
1) assume it isn't and get very sharp in the parenting and maybe things will resolve and maybe they won't.
2) suspect that it is and get very sharp in the parenting and maybe things will resolve and maybe they won't, but hold on to great hope that getting him in a more challenging educational environment will make a huge difference.

I'm betting on #2.
Best Wishes,
Grinity

JBDad, we had problems with our dd starting when she was about 6 that lasted months. She was in 1st grade and because she wasn't used to FT school, I didn't schedule any other activities that she usually does throughout the year, just kept violin. I wanted to give her a chance to adjust to all day at school. We started having problems at home. She became so angry and we couldn't figure out why. Our well adjusted, well mannered 6 year old just started acting out, being openly defiant, tried to argue about EVERYTHING and would throw the worst tantrums (screaming, hitting, etc.). We would punish the bad behavior, but it just kept re-occurring and we were at a loss for what to do. We finally figured out that she was so terribly under-challenged at school and on top of that she didn't have her usual after school activities, yet she was too tired when she'd get home, so she never wanted to do the enriching activities we used to do during K. Eventually everything worked itself out. Her school step up the challenge a bit, we keep her busy after school with a variety of activities and with age she's less tired by her day at school so we do enriching activities too. We haven't seen that angry side of her since. I hope that once the GIEP is in place you'll see some improvements. You're not alone!

Hi JBDad, and Crisc,

Hope your troubles are abating a little? I've been reasonably open about ours, and in response it turns out that a couple of friends are having similar issues with their sons. The parents, parenting styles and boys are all quite different, but all kids are definitely bright, all around the same age, all having some unhappiness at school, and all saving the aggressive behaviour for home (though disruptive or inattentive at school). That one of these boys was behaving this way really surprised me - he's such a gentle soul.

This doesn't really help in terms of solving the problem, but knowing that the behaviour is less unusual than I had thought did calm me down a little. Calmer is always good. I'll need it - it's apparent now that NSDH isn't up to any sort of consistency, and it doesn't look like we can get the boys into the GT school this year - they could give a place to DS6, but not to DS4 (they're already overloaded with siblings of existing students).

Best wishes,
bk

BK -
Is it worth sending DS6 this year and hoping to send DS4 next year? Or send DS6 and find some other accomidations for dS4?
Just a thought (maybe better to start a new topic for this question, yes?)
Grinity

Well... today was a very, very good day. DS had a very positive report in his behavior chart from school. It was nice to see the little guy get a win today. Everyone needs a win every now and then...

JB (hoping that this wasn't only due to the 2 hour snow delay...)

So a good strategy might be to do a snow dance every day?

We took route number 2 last year, when ds-then-5 was alternating between "beast-child" and "defeated sad child" after starting K.

When defiance and minor fighting started to crop up at school, we instituted a zero-tolerance policy for school behavior, and stiff and enforced consequences to behavior he *knew* was inappropriate, ie looking a teacher square in the eye and saying "No!" when told to use the bathroom. He knows better, and I don't care how bored you are -- you still need to listen to and respect your teachers. His immediate behavior improved ... he was still *not happy,* but at least he wasn't coming home with negative behavior reports every day, which weren't helping his self-esteem. Making him responsible for his actions at school helped him with the lack of control he was feeling -- and my ds likes to feel in control! So the power to avoid an early bedtime and possibly earn an ice-cream trip at the end of the week was a big motivator for ds.

By late October last year, we started realizing what the real culprit was (and yes, testing was a *huge* eye-opener) and working on it. We upped the challenge level at home, with Beestar.org and "tricky maths" worksheets and word games, basically un-afterschooling, if that makes any sense! And we started advocating with the school; when that was going nowhere we started searching for alternative schooling arrangements.

It did become clear, with added challenge at home and the enormous turn-around in attitude with more-appropriate placement this year, that under-challenge *was* the problem last year. He couldn't stand not using his brain all day; it was frustrating to him in a way he couldn't put words to. He knew the other kids enjoyed it, he knew he "should" enjoy it, but he didn't. And he didn't have the words to tell us what was wrong at the time. Now he says he likes his school (it has the word "Academy" in the name of the school) because, in his words, "It's an academy and you learn new things at academies."

Sooo ... for us, taking a two-pronged approach worked well. We had to assume it *wasn't* GT-related, because GT-related or not the behavior was inappropriate. But we got to work on solutions for the GT factor.

I think that is a post full of loads of BTDT wisdom, Mia. Thanks for sharing that.

Treat the symptom even as you try to fix the root cause. Smart!

Glad it was a good day, JB--we've been thinking of you.

minnie

Mia wrote:
un-afterschooling
Yes! I love it. That's what we do, too.

Thanks Mia.

We're using both a carrot & stick approach right now. The carrot is doing something fun/education this weekend (taking the train to downtown Philly). The stick is usually loosing privileges (restriction from toys), then loosing "crafts", then doing chores. Pretty strict about it...

Yesterday ended up being the best day in a long, long time. This morning started out good, but I got a text message a while ago from DW and it sounds like things turned South...

JB

JB,
I believe that all behavior is just a form of communication - he's telling you something. I'd guess it's frustration. But the question is with what. My son was a lot like yours. Behaviors resolved with changes in his educational programming. But we still don't have that right and behaviors still crop up. And new ones emerge as we deal with new issues. For us the recent concern has been more in terms of his friends or, I should say, lack thereof. I think our son is acting out more lately due to his sense of not belonging.

I do also think that the behaviors you are seeing are more typical of a 6 year old who is gifted. My step daughter was just visiting with us (half sister to MrWiggly). She hadn't seen him in 18 months. She commented twice on how he seemed like "a little teenager" and noted his sarcasm, talking back and such as being much older than she expected him to act. I felt validated when she brought it up on her own as this is what my DH and I have felt about him for a long time! I think the "teenager in a 6-7 year old body" is a common phenomena in gifted boys!

Yes! This line of thinking makes a lot of sense to me, Mia. Sometimes, no matter hard we try, we can't create an optimal school situation for our kids. But we can teach them more adaptable ways of showing their frustration. And that means consequences for showing any disrespect (the "battle" I pick with my kids) to other people. We can teach them this while still having empathy for them in their school situation.

I got more details on what happened today. The bad news was that the teenage-trapped-in-a-6yo-body (yes, this is what it feels like) surfaced this morning during breakfast. The good news is that he had a pretty good mental reset before heading to school. He came home with an excellent behavior report (yay). He did have a fit this evening, but we were able to adjust.

I am now pretty convinced that we're in one of these intellectual/emotional growth spurts. During dinner we happened to get into some pretty advanced math topics really, really quickly and he was totally digging it (he explained the concept of communicative principal of multiplication to me...!). So we just un-afterschooled! :-)

JB

An intellectual growth spurt matched by lack of challenge at school can make for a doozy of a behavior problem. Imagine a rapidly growing kid who is not being fed...

I have a strong feeling that that might be what's up!

Yay, un-afterschooling!:)

We can teach them to behave, and if we are 'super sharp' in the parenting department, we will probably get the symptoms to dissapear, and this is a good thing, except that then we lose our feedback mechanism, and if Gifted Denial is at work, we can do damage without really noticing. This is a perfectly ordinary occurance and it happens all the time. Many of us parents are also 'Intense, Thoughtful, Determined, and Sensitive' so if we make up our minds to do a behavior intervention, there is a good chance that it will work to some degree.

Actually I don't think we have to show them that we have empathy for the school situation. I think we need to find a way to change it, and yes Advocacy takes a long time in 'kid-years.' But every small victory helps so much. Afterschool activities and Saturday programs work well for some kid, particularly if they are truly similar in LOG to the other kids in that particular program (favors MG kids) and if they have lots of energy.

((shrugs)) and more ((shrugs))
Grinity

Totally what my kid is going through - SO Glad I am not the only one!! Mine is turning six next week! My current solution is to use the word NOW when things have to be a command after asking nicely once or twice. He resopnds to that - or counting to 3 still works from when he was a toddler.

Does anyone else have a child that has always picked a choice that wasn't even on the original list of approved choices? That's my kid.

Other solution: "I've given you my answer. My answer is not going to change. We are not discussing it anymore." Unfortunately - this has now been used against me when things are not going his way - and he tells me, he is not discussing it with me anymore (!) (I try not to laugh).

Can't wait to hear if they make changes at the school and whether this helps. I'm in totally the same boat - even AFTER having an intervention team try to help all the teachers and cafeteria workers get ot know him and his antics at the start of the school year.

Hang in there!

Oh - also - I have on friend who always told his kids "Sometimes, I'm just going to say no, for no reason, and you need to obey - and sometimes, I'm going to listen to your reasons". I generally go with "give a reason" this is respectful to the child - but with the gifted ones - they so do like to debate - and be little lawyers - huge risk of us losing control.

Time out is the other method we were told to use for non compliance - it usually brings him "down a peg or two" / makes him calmer - but it does't seem to change the overall "delay" in just getting what it means to be good!

Also finding lunchtimes, recess, end of the day, packing up time tend to be when the misbehavior occurs/ tiredness, hunger, more freedon in the great outdoors.

Do you have specifics other than transition and change causing issues?

We have always had issues with transition and change, but now I have also pinpointed it down too obsession over certain tasks, toys, wanting to do something and NO patience in wating for certain taks, toys, activities, rewards. Has anyone else seen these issues? The more aggressive behavior often occurs when someone says something mean, won't do things the way he thinks they should be done, he can't wait for something, or something he was in te middle of gets taken away by child or teacher or just because that paritcular activity "is over now". This was a lot more acceptable when he was 3.

Our county counsellor also informed us that 6 is when kids get mean/say mean things and "life isn't fair - this isn't fair, that isn't fair" - around age 7 but I don't see that so much yet.

Has anyone else read/used the book "Positive Discipline"?

We had another good school day, but bad day at home. At least there is some progress though.

Funny you mention "life isn't fair". We had a bit of that discussion a couple of weeks ago in relation to something his brother got to do but he didn't. We *have* had things happen at school like a few children pick on DS (saying that he's a "bad boy" of all things...) He was actually pretty mature about it and just told us that it happened and that it made him feel pretty sad. I'm happy that he can talk about his feelings like that sometimes.

Little under the weather so I probably won't be on much more tonight.

Side note: it's about time for me to "remind" the school that we need to schedule our follow up GIEP meeting. Can't believe that we haven't had that scheduled yet. Sheesh.

JB

JBDad-

I highly recommend the book:
The Explosive Child (http://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Child-Understanding-Frustrated-Chronically/dp/0060931027)

There is a lot of repetition, and the book is focused on the truly explosive child; however, the technique that he puts forth for understanding your child's perspective on an issue is helpful. Basically, it teaches you to stop and find out why DS is refusing/whining/shutting down/whatever in the face of a request/demand/change of plans/failure/etc. Using the ideas with my DS6, I found out that I grossly misunderstood his perspective and reasoning abilities. After a couple of weeks, it was less mechanical (and felt less like negotiating with a terrorist), and we now can address problems before they occur (except at school cuz I am not there).

Best.