Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion WPPSI vs. SB-V

I jumped into somebody else's thread this morning, and I feel bad about it. Apologies to rachibaby. So let me try to start the issue anew here.

Question: What are the relative advantages and disadvantages of the WPPSI vs. the SB-V for a child approaching 5 years old?

One issue seems to be the lower ceiling for the WPPSI. I gather from another thread that it is normed only to 7:2 or 7:3, whereas the SB-V goes higher. I also seem to recall that the SB-V has the reputation of being better for VS kids (though Kriston's son was an exception to this?), and also that the SB-V is reputed to be better for mathy kids (relevant in our case). Have I got these issues right? Are there other obvious ones to consider?

The question has come into focus for us because a school we are considering requires WPPSI scores for admission. They might be open to a substitution if there were a good argument for it, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort.

Any help from the wise among you greatly appreciated.

BB

Oops. I notice that I put this in the wrong forum. Argh!

BB

Yes, a lot of the decision comes down to why you're testing.

If you just need that 130 (or lower) for admission, I'd go with the WPPSI. Ceiling issues probably don't matter so much for that.

If you're looking for DYS admission or wanting to get a truer, fuller idea of just where your child is really operating, I might suggest waiting and taking the WISC. The SB-V just seems...finicky. JBDad's son had the same sort of issues my son had. Both tested GT on it, certainly, but even the experts felt that our kids' true potential just wasn't being shown. And both our kids seem mathy (or at least pattern-y) AND verbal--like yours in that regard, G3.

OTOH (A third hand?), if you need a fuller score right now for the purposes of major educational choices, I'd probably go with the SB-V, but with the expectation that you may be testing again on the WISC in a year or two if the results are as unclear for you as they were for JBDad and I.

It may just be that a certain kind of visual-spatial kid is not cut out for the SB-V. JBDad's son and mine really do seem to be cut from the same pattern-crazy, science-heavy cloth, so I was not at all surprised that his son scored much as mine did on the SB-V. I also expect him to kick behind on the WISC's PRI when he takes that, just as my DS7 did.

What does that mean for you, BBDad? I have no idea, given that I just told you that under certain circumstances, you might want him to take any one of the three tests! (And you only asked about two!) :p

I didn't know that the visual spatial will score higher on the WISC compared to the SBV. Thanks for the info.

Ren

What Kriston said.

SB-V on one hand kicked my butt over the GT-denial part. On the other hand it opened up a lot of questions. I have talked with one of the so-called GT testing experts recommended by hoagies and the impression that he gave me was that children will definitely score differently on either test depending on their abilities. Our psychologist put in the report that even though DS scored high, his true abilities weren't being tested by the SB-V.

If I had to do it all over again, I probably would have gone to someone who was more specialized with GT kids. According to the pysch, he had probably only seen one other child in the same ballpark as our DS (and our DS didn't score extraordinally high on the SB-V test, although his achievement tests were very high). But we had time and other constraints.

JB

That's what they say--Dr. Amend and other psychs have said it is so, so apparently it is. But it sure didn't play out with my son.

He tested as a verbal kid does on the SB-V and he tested as off-the-charts visual-spatial on the WISC. Dr. A said, "He does not test like a visual kid. Not at all." The psych who gave the WISC said, "Well, he's OBVIOUSLY incredibly visual-spatial!" Same kid, different tests...

That still makes me shake my head and cross my eyes. How can he be verbal on the VS test and VS on the verbal test? But JBDad's son seems headed down the same path, so it seems to be the way kids like them test, for some reason.

I guess I'm saying that the experts say so...so take it with a grain of salt.

Depends too on why you are testing. For us, we need to get some evidence in place for skipping K. Since I knew that the school might do the WPPSI, we choose the SB-V. (Then I learned that they would take our test scores, and so there wasn't the concern of test overlap). We were concerned about ceilings on the WPPSI too.

Now for us taking the WISC this summer is to see if DS's LOG is near DYS. One of his achievement scores suggests this (although early readers are skewed).

JB

Thanks to all for the advice! I can see that it's a frought issue, so I feel better about being confused.

The main reason for doing the testing is to get a sense for what kind of learner DS is, what his strengths and weaknesses are, and on the basis of that to make decisions about his education. To be honest the gifted school in question isn't really a determining factor: although it looks like it could be very interesting, it is almost certainly too far away to take seriously. We're going to visit next week, but unless we're completely blown away by it I have a hard time imagining we will choose to drive an hour each way for kindergarten. Especially when he seems to be enjoying the French school across the street from our house. In any case, the WPPSI cutoff for the gifted school is 120, so it doesn't seem like that by itself would dictate one decision or another.

A possible final reason for taking the test would be to see about DYS eligibility. It's so hard to judge whether that will be an issue, though. DW and I would have made the cutoffs easily, and when I read the Ruf book DS seems to fit comfortably in level 4 with some level 5 thrown in. So that suggests the possibility. (I should add that, although DW and I would have easily made the official cut, it's not clear that either of us would have naturally been classed as a Ruf Level 4 or 5 at DS's age. I have no idea, for instance, when I started to read.) Another consideration is that we live among a pretty skewed population, and although there are a few kids a bit older than DS who seem similar to him, in general it seems to me that he stands out pretty clearly. Still, it feels presumptuous to think of DYS as a reason for doing the testing.

I think one of the reasons it feels presumptuous is that it's very hard to judge about my own kid what his abilities are. When I see him struggling with something that it seems to me he *ought* to be able to do, it always makes me wonder whether I've mis-classified him. For example, he goes to a math circle where they play lots of number games. There are two other kids, both just 5, who sometimes seem a bit ahead of him. They had been figuring the areas of rectangles and triangles, and then the teacher drew a cuboid. DS clearly had trouble understanding how to extrapolate from what he already knew to figure the answer. With some help, one of the others managed more or less to figure it out. I recognize this is probably not a standard thing for four and a half year olds, or even five year olds, to be doing. But still, it's so hard to put yourself in the position of not being able to see that connection. It makes me feel helpless to help him, and it also makes me wonder whether I've got an inflated idea of his abilities.

I am a proud papa, but I want to be realistic too. I know he is smart, but just how smart I have no idea. I guess that's really the main reason for testing. Perhaps that means SB-V or wait for the WISC?



BB

I only have advice on the SB-5 since my DS6 took that at 4 years 9 months old. Funny enough--we had some ceiling issues as well on this test but at the time we needed something to convince me that he was GT and needed to go to new school. I'm pretty sure we would have had ceiling issues on the WPPSI despite the fact that he was still less than 5 years old. My son is also considered more verbal and mathy and that was what his test results showed.

I don't regret using the SB-5 and actually our tester told us that she preferred the SB-5 over the WPPSI despite the usually lower scores. She actually warned us that his scores on the SB-5 might be lower than expected but would still give us a good idea of his IQ.

If we need testing again in the future for DS6 I think we would choose the WISC.

ETA: We posted at the same time and I just want to add that you should not feel bad about testing for DYS. The only reason we did achievement testing on DS6 at the age of 5 years 1 month was to get qualifying scores. I doubt I EVER would have subjected him to that type of test if we didn't need that score to apply. I don't think it told me much except that he was academically ahead, could read, and could do basic math. I knew that without the test.

DS6 took WPPSI at 5:3. There are two disadvantages the way I see it - ceiling issues and the fact that you have to score higher on WPPSI than SB-V to get to DYS. We needed the results at that point and didn't want to wait for another 9 months for WISC. To our big surprise he made the DYS cutoff.

We will most likely use the same test for DS4 once he turns 5. If it doesn't work (bad day, not co-operating, wrong test for him) we can always try WISC a year later.

I agree with Crisc. DYS is worth it!

I worried that we were somehow chasing scores to get him in, and I definitely find that distasteful. Not my style! But there were 2 (well, 2.5) reasons we retested on the WISC: 1) we still didn't really know what LOG he was at, and it kind of mattered for homeschooling, 2) he seemed like a candidate for DYS, as his achievement test scores were well within DYS range and he seemed like a 4 on Ruf's scale, and 2.5) Dr. Amend said we should because the SB-V was not a good fit for him (among other reasons).

I seriously debated about just dropping it. I debated about it here on the forum, in fact. I felt like, "My kid is smart. I know this. Do I need to know more or is it ego?"

Well, in the end, I don't think it was ego. I learned a good bit of very useful info from the WISC about how he learns. And he did get the scores he needed for DYS. It's nice to be a part of that group. Socially especially, it has been a real boon.

I'm sure it helps that he tested well that second time. If he hadn't, I might feel less secure about our choices.

But I'd certainly recommend that you test if you think your child might be a DYS candidate. No question! There's absolutely nothing wrong with that!

The school psychologist who tested DS6 told me she picked the SB-5 over the WISC because it depends less on fine motor skills/speed. DS, like many gifted boys, has hands that can't keep up with his thinking.

Ditto my friend. And the tests sometimes creates more questions than answers...

JB

I just want to throw my 2 cents in...
I had DS tested at 4.8y on the WPPSI and recently on the SBV at 7.8y (this second testing was for DYS purposes only since the original WPPSI scores were greater than 2 years old). DS did well on both scoring within a few points of each other on FS IQ. DS also excelled/ceilinged at NV on the SBV and Performance on the WPPSI. DS is a very VS kid - building Legos, blocks, stuff out of things, 3-D visualization, etc. Here's a quick link that describes VS learners: VS def
Additionally, the psychologists in our area have described the 2 tests as differing in that the WPPSI measures knowledge gained thus far, rather than potential wherease the SBV measures some knowledge but is able to assess potential better.
FWIW, I have had friends' children who have taken both tests and received highly dissimilar FSIQ scores (all GT but ranging from low end to mod or from HG to PG).
And lastly, we had DD assessed on the SBV only and DD's score was within 2-3 points of DS. I only mention this since DD did not present as GT+. I thought DD was bright and maybe MG but DD's scores were DYS worthy like DS's.

IMHO I would go with the SBV. Reason being DD not presenting as GT and being GT! Also, DS's scores were slightly higher on the SBV v. the WPPSI-III.

HTH, Good luck and please do keep us posted.

Feel free to PM me if you have detailed questions.

DS's subscore on one of the knowledge subtests of the SB-5 was, by far, his lowest score. Didn't bring down his entire score that much though because it was only on that one subtest. I recall a couple of other people on this board saying that gifted boys frequently score low on the knowledge subtests of the SB-5 - I'll defer to them... Are you guys out there?

Yes. I am here. DS6 got 19's on every verbal subtest except knowlegde. He got a 10. I think his non-verbal knowledge subtest was just a little higher. My tester actually put some documentation from Dr. Ruf in our report describing the phenomenon that seems to occur in young gifted boys.

Here is the infomration from the Use of the SB5 in the Assessment
of High Abilities Bulletin:

Analysis of the case studies reveals that a rather surprising number of the exceptionally gifted�and boys in particular�score lower on Knowledge (KN), and especially Verbal KN (Vocabulary), than on the other factors. Although merely speculative at this stage, it may be fruitful to investigate whether or not video
game or computer use might have cut into the reading time of the generation(particularly boys) now in school. Tyler is actually well read and factually knowledgeable, but his immediate grasp of out-of-context vocabulary was relatively low for his overall ability. The report includes this explanation:

Knowledge represents an examinee�s accumulated fund of general information acquired at home, school, or work. In research, this factor has often been called crystallized ability. Although still above average, the Knowledge factor score was relatively lower than his other factor scores. Additionally, the Verbal
Knowledge subtest Vocabulary contributes half of the score to the Abbreviated Battery IQ (ABIQ), explaining his relatively lower ABIQ of 130 (that is, lower relative to his FSIQ).

I was in the exact same place you are when we (well, I -- ex-h wasn't on board in the slightest) decided to test. I knew he was smart, but I couldn't decide *how* smart, and what I was justified in asking for from the school. Talk about opening a can of worms!

My ds6 took the WPPSI at 5y5m and ceilinged 7 of the 11 subtests, leaving him *just* short of the DYS WPPSI cut-off. If you're hoping (even a little) for DYS scores, I'd wait for the WISC, or just do the SB5 -- from what I've read of your ds, he's almost certainly at the higher end of the spectrum and the WPPSI just might not provide enough ceiling room. It's possible to be accepted to DYS with close scores and a portfolio, but it's kind of a pain in the neck. When you have a child who you are pretty sure qualifies but misses the cut-off on what amounts to a testing technicality, it's frustrating knowing that the resources there are just out of reach.

I've said this before and I don't have any specific research to back it up, but two GT-experienced testers I've contacted separately recommended waiting on the WISC until closer to 6.5 or 7. Not sure the rationale on that, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

What a terrific thread - you guys are the best!

I'm learning a huge amount of stuff here. For one thing, it seems to me a really bad idea in our case to choose a test that measures knowledge gained so far. The main reason is that, although DS has a huge amount of specialized knowledge - from Norse mythology to the moons of Jupiter, from the history of the Galactic Empire to the geometry of square numbers, and so on - I simply can't imagine that a test-maker thinking about what a 4-year-old might know could manage to hit on his specialties.

Second, I'm so happy to hear people say that it's not crazy to keep a DYS application at least in the back of the mind.

These things together make me more confident that we should use the SB-V if we do something relatively soon, or the WISC if we decide to wait a couple of years.

Weather permitting we're having a "get-acquainted" meeting with the assessor on Saturday. We'll see what she thinks, but it's good to have some background going in.

BB

LOL!

I guess my point was that the way my DS has gone about "acquiring knowledge" is so ad hoc, so follow-your-nose, that although he has tons of specialized knowledge he might well not know whatever basic things they ask on the test. If it doesn't happen to have been a passion of his, then he might well have ignored it entirely.