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I didn't mean to misrepresent you there, Grinity. I think I was going along with the thought, rather than basing my comments on what you actually said. I should have said so. Sorry!

True confessions: some of my response is because I REALLY worried about whether we were teaching him to quit when we were considering whether to pull DS7 out of 1st grade or not. It was one of the things my "friend" who was critical of our decision raised (in a very snotty tone! And that's the "friend" who saw nothing wrong with a kid being bored for 3 years...), and I felt pretty insecure about it. It has been discussed here several times, too. It seems to be a pretty common criticism launched at homeschoolers who start their kids in school, right after "What about socialization!?!" So I admit that I'm probably a bit touchy on the subject!



I'll add that in the end, I decided I was worrying about nothing. I think that as long as you don't pull your child out every time he's not 100% happy with every little thing about an activity, you're fine. I suspect I make him stick it out with things he dislikes a lot longer than teachers would, frankly.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to pick on you there in any way, Grinity. My apologies!

We had our DS5 in a Montessori program from age 2-5 (because I worked as a teacher)...the older he got, the more miserable he became - they were not challenging him at all and he kept telling me that he was bored, bored, bored. His teacher was very intimated and even told me and him several times that he needed to slow down because he was so far ahead of everyone else and that she was afraid she would run out of material to teach him when he was enrolled for Kindergarten. His self-esteem started to drop, his whole demeanor changed, he was miserable, he told me he felt like he was all by himself. We knew that a public K with 24-26 in a class would not work (I taught K in my county for over 15 years) so we pulled him from school and dove head first into homeschooling. It meant me leaving my career, but after just a handful of months, we have our happy child back, his self-esteem is returning, his sense of adventure and love of exploration is back. Homeschooling him was the best thing we could have done given the circumstances. It was a tough decision and no, not every day is butterflies and roses - some days are difficult, but just seeing his old self back is worth everything! :-) We have joined 2 large homeschooling groups in our county and he is spending more time socializing then he ever did when he was in preschool.

AMS,

Thank you for starting this thread and to all those that have added such insight (especially KTC, what a wonderful thoughtful post). Let me start by saying that I have been one of those people that balk at the thought of homeschooling and have always used socialization as my main ammo. And I can list a few grown ups that were homeschooled as my examples for why socialization is a concern. But since diving into giftedness and what it really means I see my argument going into the recycle bin. Gifted children for the most part have issues with socialization period and no matter if they are in main stream public school or private school, charter or homeschooled there is still a possibility that they are going to stick out socially. So while figuring all of this out my DH and I have had many a conversation about our DD and the future plans and fears of what is to come. With these conversations we have discussed that homeschooling is an option. A huge step for me since I would never have thought I would venture down that path period but still I have to admit that I see it as a last resort and am still not 100% convinced that it is the best thing.

But reading this thread has gotten me one step closer to acceptance and I really appreciate the openness of it all. I guess I really need to have an open mind to all of it and start researching the good and bad of homeschooling.

Having options is what it's all about, Katelyn's Mom!

I'd love it if every HG kid had a flexible public school that kept the HG and PG together for large chunck of the day and was committed to noticing and accomidating the individual needs of this very diverse group! It should be free and within a short commute.

Do we have enough HG and PG kids to make this work? - Unknown.

Do we have the political will as a country to fund this? So far, no, but it is a worthy goal.

Do we have the expertise to actually be able to notice and accomidate the needs of every HG and PG kid? - I don't think we have it on a wide scale yet.

So for now, we are all in the position of piecing together a workable combination of situations.

I could easily imagine things getting dramatically better over the next 5 years. I sure hope it does!

Grinity

Belle,

We were making the HSing decision at the same time I think. I'm glad to read it is going well. It's going well on this end. It was rough going at first, reversing bad habits etc but now it's working well. I'm still learning and tweaking but it's working well and DS is happy! It's better now that his best bud who is very HG+ is also HSing so they get together 2x/week to play/PE.

My husband and I enrolled our son in half-day public kindergarten at age 5 for the "social" benefits. He didn't go to preschool and was the only child at home so he was looking forward to going to school. He did enjoy some things about kindergarten but he said it wasn't very educational. He liked talking to the teachers. He liked reading his reports to go along with his "letter of the week" show & tell.

But Kindergarten is where he first learned that he was "different" because he talked more like an adult than a 5 year old and he liked to read science encyclopedias and National Geographic magazine for fun. He found that bullies target kids who are different. I remember talking to my family about the bullying problem at the school and my sister told me she felt that bullying in school made her stronger so she saw learning to deal with bullies as a social benefit. The rest of my family agreed with me that it was not. I think the school's bullying problem might have been part of the reason people at the school told us we should homeschool. An article in Science Daily www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080422143529.htm says Social Form of Bullying Linked to Depression, Anxiety in Adults.

In Kindergarten my son learned he had to sit "criss-cross applesauce hands in your lap" and only listen to the teacher and not ask questions about anything she read. He learned that it was important to stifle his curiosity while he was at school. He learned that singing in the restroom was not allowed. He learned that coloring in the lines was very important because the teacher said so. Kids tried to tell him there was a five second rule and if you dropped food on the floor and picked it up within 5 seconds it was okay to eat. He learned to stay close to the teacher at recess so the bullies couldn't do anything to him. Those are the things he remembers. So I guess if those things are important, than Kindergarten was good for my son.

At 10, he has excellent social skills and is comfortable talking to people of all ages. His sister (18 years older) likes talking to him so much that she calls him 4 or 5 times a day. When his sister and her boyfriend went out to eat with us recently, he was the one keeping the conversation going. She commented that he could talk about anything. She held up the ketchup bottle and said she thought he could even carry on a conversation about a ketchup bottle if he wanted to. So he took that as a challenge and talked about the actual making of the bottle and the materials that might have been used to make it (He likes to watch How It's Made) and then he went on to talk about the ketchup and I don't remember what all he said but it was funny.

I think he would have much more anxiety and much less self confidence if he were in our public school. His emotional health is very important to me.

Wow, thank you all for you responses. There are so many things I want to respond to on here (I haven't commented in a few days)...Let's see...I'm going to reply in list form so as to make it more logical for those reading this

1-) let me give a nutshell background on my DH. Probably should have done this sooner. He is HG (maybe even PG) and when he was in school the teacher's perceived him as having a learning disability b/c of his hyperactivity and refusal do do the mediocre work they assigned him. The school decided to fail him one year, and the next year they attempted "fail" him again mid-year by placing him in a lower grade. After 2 days, that teacher took him back to his original class and stated "There is nothing wrong with this boy. He is extremely smart and does NOT belong in my class. You just need to challenge him more." Well nothing came of her comment and his mother (obviously my MIL that I spoke of in the original post) did not stand up for him and instead attempted to handle the situation by chastising him continuously for not "applying himself". He spent the rest of his school years skipping class, making D's and F's, and sleeping during class. Finally, at 17 and in 9th grade, he dropped out and got his GED. He placed 1st in the class and 4th in the state on his GED test despite never attending class. I do not want this to happen to our DD5! which is why I am so desperate to find her the resources she needs.

2-) If she has a problem, she always comes to mom first b/c she shows mom is the understanding one and will listen to her. Dad is more of the blunt straight-to-the point one. So therefore, she comes to me with her concerns and I then have to relay them second-hand to her dad. Therefore he doesn't get the emotion and urgency behind her unhappiness at school.

3-) I've told him many times about homeschooling groups and meetups. I have even provided him with countless pieces of information on the learning needs of GT students. If I bring up the topic he is on board with me so long as he has not had any "contact" with his mother within the last 24 hours. If he has spoken to her recently, he will be very resistant and combative when I bring up the subject of HSing or GTness. So there's definitely something there. I should probably mention that my MIL is a very brash narcissistic woman.

4-) Katelyn'sM om: I love your post. My DH has the same feelings on socialization as you. He always points to adults he knows that were HSed and says "see, xyz is a shy hermit with absolutely zero social skills. Have you ever even heard them speak? Do you want our kid to turn out like that?" as ammo for his socialization issue. He also uses The Dugger's (have you heard of the family with 16+ kids from arkansas?) as ammo that "all HSers are raised by religious nutcases". Oh, if I had a dime for every time I heard these...

5-) Lori H.: I so agree with you as well! I have often commented that the only things DD5 has learned in K is how to
a-) eat her snack before her sandwich (which she never did before),
b-) count by pointing to each individual dot and saying "1,2,3,etc as she touches each one (she used to be able to sight count. you know look at a collection of dots and immediately state the number)
c-) not ask questions and instead sit quietly and listen
d-) not sit too close to the other students b/c if one of them speaks, she will get in trouble as though she was the one who talked
e-) not to interact with the other kids b/c if she uses leadership skills she is being "bossy" and thus will get a conduct mark.
f-) etc, etc, etc.

6-) I called the board of education the other day and requested info and paperwork on homeschooling. When I told DD5 that I should be receiving the info in the mail soon and I was going to read over the paperwork and make my decision, there was an instantaneous 180 of her demeanor! That day she brought me home 2 100's on her tests and a perfect conduct mark. She became happy and chipper again. Her eyes now appear bright as opposed to cloudy and distant. Someone "turned on the light switch" as well, b/c she has started asking the well-above-her-years questions and eating better again. I just wish my DH would make the connection between her change in demeanor and what I said.

The papers haven't arrived yet, but by simply mentioning it, I got my child back. That alone seems to be the fact that has tipped the scales for me. This is something I have to do. Warrior mom is here! Thanks quys!

Oh, and one last thing. When we lived in Memphis, her pediatricians knew/suspected she was GT and would talk to me about it. When she had her school physical with a Dr. she had never met, he even asked me if she was GT. I said I think so. We have since moved to a really small town (my DH's hometown in Nwest TN) to escape the crime of the big city. There is NO Pediatrician here only family doctors. There is NO psychologist for GT's. There are NO GT teachers (although the school does have special education teacher that teaches a pull-out program for the advanced students starting with 3rd grade). So if anyone knows of anyone in Nashville, Memphis, Jackson, or within driving distance of any of these places please, please let me know. Right now it looks like I am on my own. Would contacting her old pediatrician for advice get me anywhere? Thanks again!

You can bet that it is not uncommon for your DH and my argument. And if I were to talk to him myself I probably would be able to speak his language (so to speak) b/c for me it has always been the socialization argument but what I was trying to say is I am not so judgmental as before. Don't get me wrong. I still have issues with it but am now including it in my vocabulary as an option. Here is the sad thing as I read your background on your husband. He should be fighting tooth and nail to ensure that his DD does not go down the same path that he did and (I know this is wrong of me and I have no right to say this since I don't know your MIL) your MIL had her chance to raise her child and she blew it so now she needs to back off and let you (the parents) do what you think is best for your child.

Here is a discussion I had with a friend of mine at lunch today. Yes I was talking about this post and how I am really changing my mind about homeschooling or at least not going to the typical 'socialization' argument for why I disapprove. And my friend has also been antihomeschooling. I brought up my point of GT kids and socialization issues as posted earlier. But we also talked about the very important component of why you would choose to homeschool. Is it the best option or is there some religious component such as (yes we said it) the Duggars. Yep I am very aware of the Duggar family. So I get where your husband is coming from but here is a little secret I will share with you that I myself am just starting to realize. I think part of my fear of homeschool is a perception problem. How will the rest of my neighbors, friends, and family perceive it and what criticism will I endure. I know it is a little shallow but I have to wonder if that is a big part of your DH hangup on it. Than the other issue I have is how do I tackle this so that I am giving my child the absolutely best education and isn't it narcissistic of me to think I have all the answers in that department? I really think the last comment is my biggest obstacle to it all. (and please don't take this as a stab to all of you that homeschool b/c I certainly don't mean it that way. I am just saying that everyone has strengths and I don't know if I would be structured enough to organize my child's education in a way that would be the best for her.)

All of this said I just want to say that it does sound like you have enough of a reason to pull your child and home school and I really hope that your DH comes around. And I guess through all of this post what I am really trying to state is I am very much like your DH in my views but you have won me over on why you see it as a necessity to homeschool your DD.

Thanks for your open mind, Katelyn'sMom. I would never try to talk anyone into choosing it for their kids, but I do think it is a valid option that people who are NOT nuts sometimes choose, and I wish more people thought so. I am always happy to see myths fall by the wayside!

My thought about the socialization argument: I'll bet I could name off a long list of kids I know at public school with "issues" in the social area: "backwards" kids, kids with anxiety issues that make them hard to talk to, bullies, troublemakers, etc. The difference is that we choose not to blame public school for their problems, as people often choose to blame homeschool.

Anecdotally, FWIW, 99% of the homeschooled kids that I see are fun, pleasant, highly social, very "normal" kids. If they are unusual, it's because they tend to be less judgemental of others and more poised around adults than the average kid. They are fun to be around!

Are there some with "issues"? Yup. There's one in particular who can't keep his hands to himself who gives my DH fits at Cub Scouts! And it's a parenting problem, for sure. But I see no more kids with social problems than I saw when DS7 was in public school. Probably a lot fewer!

Why is it that we think that parents cannot do a good job of teaching kids how to behave in society after they reach age 5? I did fine up to that point. Why would I suddenly be incapable of it now? I know my kids need time with other kids. So does every other parent! They get it. It may not look like school, but school isn't exactly a natural environment...you know?

Just my musings...

At our house, we talk about the 'association doesn't equal causation' trap.

or - as DS12 puts it - 'Carrots kill people, i know because almost every dead person has eaten at least one carrot!'

This affected us personally with a very unhappy boy who got a gradeskip in our elementary school about a decade before we got there. This Kindergardener was reading at late high school level, so they decided a single gradeskip was the best thing. Are you suprised that this kid had trouble fitting it with his target class? I'm not! But I was suprised that our well meaning school principle felt like a failure and took it personally. I tried to help her see that the association between gradeskip and social isolation never implied a causation. In this case, the cause of both the grade skip and the social isolation was probably a third factor (his PG brain.) So sad that this common logic trap forms so many of our perceptions!

Do a lot of antisocial people homeschool? I'll bet they do! Do the children grow up antisocial? I'll bet they do! Would they have grown up antisocial if they had attended a school? I'll bet they would.

Do I think Lorel and Kriston are homeschool because they are antisocial? No I don't! I think they are trying to met their children's needs. While I think that most homeschoolers are do have a healthy skeptasism toward athority, (one would almost have to to be strong enough to homeschool) I think that's a good thing, especially for parents of kids with unusual needs. LOL - If we parents of Gifties didn't start out skeptical, watching our children suffer while we get blamed by schools would sure encourge that growth of our inner skeptics!

Love and More Love,
Grinity