Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Seeking opinions on this one

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I think it *does* matter, but I think you answered your own question: you and your DS need specific criteria so that you understand what is expected.

Different teachers are different, of course, so take this with a grain of salt, but when I was teaching, my main criteria for giving good scores for class participation was that a student contribute positively to the class in some way. That means that the dingbat who talks constantly but says nothing gets a worse grade than the person who makes one brief, insightful comment or who has good things to say during some small group work. Some people do great in public and others prefer to contribute in other ways. I would encourage the teacher to recognize this fact of life in some gentle, not-pushy way.

FWIW...(not much!)

Hi Master of none. I'm a bit surprised that a child could be docked points on a grade for not talking. My DS8 is usually docked points for talking too much! (but usually to the kid beside him and not when the teacher asks a question!)

Our son's school had the same policy of starting real grades in 3rd grade, although for DS it was the last half of the year. But grading a kid on class participation seems odd. I know that DS had some group projects where he was expected to stand up and present something to the class. I suppose that if he had refused to do that, then his grade would have suffered some. But that was only on one project during the two semesters. Does your DS's teacher expect talking in a clearing defined example, such as a class project, or is this just a generic, hand-waving "needs to raise his hand and answer questions periodically" kind of assessment? My son was almost always too busy doodling on a piece of paper to ever join in a class discussion (at least the few times that I was in class to observe). And yet the teacher quickly realized that he doodled when he was bored and that he knew all of the material. DS's teacher did not penalize him for his lack of class participation. Would that be a similar case? I would ask for clear expectations as to what level of class participation is necessary for each given grade.

This whole concept is rather surprising, since it obviously favors the extroverts over the introverts. Does an extroverted child with minimal understanding earn more points, and thus a higher grade, than in introverted child who has mastered the subject?? I understand that teachers need some method to gauge what a child knows, and raising his/her hand and speaking is one method out of many. But the crux of the matter is that a teacher should be able to find some appropriate way of measuring mastery of knowledge, particularly when the child has an issue like social anxiety.

You can not hold up or measure a child who has social anxiety to the same level of criteria for social skills as a child without social anxiety, regardless of his or her intelligence. That is ridiculous. So I would go out of my way to thank the teacher for realizing how bright your son is, since that is a major hurdle for getting the appropriate level of differentiation from the teacher. But she should be gently reminded that your son's ability to participate in the classroom discussions is completely separate from his level of understanding or intelligence.

And as a completely separate note: Aren't schools required by law to aid students who have been diagnosed with a disability? Does your school have a counselor for the kids that you could speak to, or who would understand social anxiety more than this teacher? Could she speak to you son's teacher for you?

Ahhhh... Kriston. You are always a faster poster than I am! You snuck in there on me!

I haven't read up a lot on this forum to know the extent of testing you've had on your child, but have you had him checked for Selective Mutism? It sounds that you need to take your son to get diagnosed from a psychiatrist. This way it isn't just a "mental" disorder but a neurological one.

The problem is that if he really didn't talk last year at all, and he is now, is that he is making some kind of progress on his own. If he becomes more anxious due to being graded for being verbal, then he is going to revert back.

Selective Mutism is tricky. It isn't something they grow out of of. It can last a life time. It is like a stutter with no sound coming out at all under anxious situations. People that suffer with it can be reinforced to develop other behaviors that are associated with it if it is not recognized and dealt with accordingly.

The reason a psychiatrist should be looked into, is that anxiety medication, even a low dose, may be helpful if he does have it, until he sees that answering questions and getting them wrong isn't the worse thing in the world. He might need some counseling, too.

Also, it is reasonable that a 3rd grade teacher is going to have participation points for grading. Writing is developmental at this point, so it isn't uncommon for them to rely on oral input to grade on understanding. Also, 4th grade frequently is a big jump in districts and group projects are introduced.

Without any evaluation, she probably thinks he is willingly witholding information. She may go overboard taking his silence as a position of control and develop a powerstruggle over it. Have you observed him in the classroom this year as well as last year? I'd go observe and take notes as to when he does speak and when he doesn't.

This kind of a teacher would be very detrimental to a child with Selective Mutism, and honestly, if it was my kid and they were dx'd with it, I'd request a new teacher, change schools, or homeschool him. Otherwise, for a child with Selective Mutism it could have long term consequences to his sense of safety and anxiety when in a classroom or similar settings.

I think that's it. You push a little and it there is any improvement, it's good improvement. If it's not a speech issue or neurological issue I think it's okay to shoot for improvement.


When DD8 was in second they had to write sentences every week. DD was always great with spelling, neatness and writing, so I allowed her to treat it as a blow off.

Teacher called me out on the carpet during conference. I was SO annoyed! I told her these were GREAT sentences for first grade. She agreed and then said, but not for DD.

So she gave me some parameters of what she was expecting and for the rest of the year the girl really worked on sentence writing night. She sat there for up to an hour and a half on a few occasions.

DD was in speech that year and she has always struggled to get stuff out, verbally and on paper.

At least in our case the teacher was right to push and I'm glad she did.

I do think you have to trust your mommy instinct, though, and step in it it's just *not right*

I'm with 'Neato on this one - if the teacher is willing to hold up higher standards for your child, and recognise their intelligence, I wouldn't run to intervene, unless your 'Mom-Gut' says that this is damaging. If you do intervene, I wouldn't let your child know, and I would gently prod the teacher into drafting specific goals and sharing them with your child, but even this boxes her into a corner.

As far as Mastery/Minimal Understanding, we are talking about 3rd grade here, right? So please remember that in elementary school, teachers don't expect anything beyond Minimal Understanding, (and in our experience - take points off for anything beyond that because it confuses them) and rarely reward anything beyond Minimal Understanding.

I've read stuff here and there that while one may find a few Introvert teachers in High School, one certianly isn't likely to find much besides Extrovert-preferance teacher is the early grades. And yes, a few individuals who with Extrovert preferance are very thoughtful about Intovert-Preference people, but most of us aren't - LOL - ask my DH about me!

My son was able to read a book with his hand up, ready to participate in class discussion at the drop of a hat in 4th grade, and the teacher was mightily impressed. He was one of those ones who would have liked to answer every question in class discussion. Many times over the year, his teachers expressed gratitude for his participation, because they see whole-class time as a choice between 'teacher lecturing' and 'teacher led discussion' and they believe that the kids learn better when their classmates are answering the questions, than if they stand up there by themselves and 'blab.'

FWIW, If your child does have an introvert-preference, that opens up lots of educational opportunities, such as doing Math from a book in the back of the room, that just aren't availible to highly extrovert-preferanced kids like my son, so take advantage of those opportunities, such as distance learning, and long, self-led project, that I've always drooled over. Think how restrictive it would be to get enrichment for a kid who only really engages in learning when he hears the roar of the crowd!

Smiles,
Grinity

If your child has a diagnosis (social anxiety) that affects his grades, you have all you need for a 504 plan that includes accomodations (like allowing him to talk less). I'm sure you'd like him to be able to communicate the way the teacher wants him to, but you also want to preserve his self-esteem and work within his limitations.

Could you get the school psych involved, especially with an outside diagnosis and treatment plan?

I've found this year that the teachers have good intentions, but just truly do not get some of these issues; and may never.

If the teacher is going to change her expectations and fiddle with her grading system, it's probably more likely to happen if she understands. But in this case it's reasonable to ask her to do so even if she doesn't.

I have never been successful so far in having a teacher do something different for either of my children if she doesn't buy into it. But the teacher may be more likely to do something *against her/his better judgement* if she/he hears if from another school person that he/she knows and trusts. A school psychologist, social worker, gifted coordinator/teacher, and/or principal.

Additionally, this may ease the *pain* of being told you are harming my son more than you are helping by the parent; which may salvage the relationship teacher and DS have.

It's a tough decision to decide whether or not you leave it alone and see where it goes or get involved and risk pissing the teacher off. Let me tell you from experience that can go down very badly for the child for a variety of reasons.

What about this: do you feel comfortable having son sit down with the teacher and have her clarify exactly what she is looking for? Sometimes DD needs the teacher to do that, she is a very black and white thinker.

I think I'd focus on the communication issues between the teacher and you first. That's an overarching problem that could be extremely damaging in the long run. Second I'd focus on her issues with your child and the unfairness of being judged to be lacking for a diagnosed issue.

Unless she's failing him, I think I'd do as much as I could to minimize the focus on grades. The kid is in 3rd grade. So what if he gets a B? That's not really the heart of the issue. The real problems are her unclear communication style and her unfairness to a disabled child.

I'm glad to hear you're so on the ball with this diagnosis and his treatment. I hope I can add some support to what everyone has given.



So it sounds like the teacher needs more information on Selective Mutism. The very heart of the problem is that they don't "just open up and start talking," especially if they desparately want to.
Maybe if you had her read some journal articles or some literature from his psychiatrist, she would ease up and not have her expectations so misplaced. Also, she might feel like she is part of a team - child, parents, psych, teacher.



This comment kind of struck me, because people with Selective Mutism don't "learn to participate in a discussion." They have experience participating in discussions at home with family, maybe with cousins, and possibly with a good friend or two.

They also learn like all of the other kids from listening in the classroom as to what a good response is or not.

The problem isn't 'learning to participate in discussions,' but easing up the tension when he wants to contribute. The teacher may feel it is her job to teach him to participate, when really she'd better off easing up on him and treating him like everyone else so he doesn't feel singled out, adding to his anxiety.

Also, she should make him feel like what he says matters, so that he doesn't feel pressure from the idea that people may think about him differently if he says something wrong.

I completely agree with Dottie about getting him a 504 to address some of these issues.

In the 504, besides grading, I'd also have him sit next to as many "buddies" he feels comfortable enough to talk to in a variety of school situations - field trips, reading time, going to the library, assemblies, class groups - but then also adding a new child or two to the team/group/partners. This way he has a friend to talk to while at the same time he is widening his circle of true friends.

Oh - I she sounds malicious to me. Sad that she's the best he's gotten so far. I hope next year will be better. ((heart breaking))

I'm so glad to hear this! I don't believe children should do their own advocacy, but in the right situation with the right teacher it can be very empowering to the child.

Sounds like this was one of those. So wonderful that he feels comfortable with teacher.

Ups and downs, this is clearly a big up!

Keep on it!

((Hugs!))

So sorry your son, and you, are going through this. I have worked as a school counselor with kids that have this social anxiety, and selective mutism (which to me sounds like what you are describing even though that may not be his current diagnosis). One of the worst things you can do in working with kids that have these issues is to force them to talk and confront them regularly on the fact that they don't talk. You encourage communication, be it verbal or in other ways. You set them up in small groups and situations where they feel more comfortable talking and the more they talk with a positive experience, the more comfortable they will be speaking in school. I would suggest you find some articles on the internet about selective mutism and how to work with children on this in school setting. You will find multiple resources and it all focuses on team effort and even though it can be frustrating for teachers, they can mess it all up by being too pushy. I had to print some out and we reviewed and had a team meeting at some point with other staff so we all were helping not harming the situation. Also wanted to mention that I worked with a 2nd grader that was very bright but had never said one word in the school building. Not one word at all. Parents brought in video tapes of him talking so we could see. He did projects at home and we brought the tapes in to show the class and he was okay with that. I also worked with a girl who never said a word in school and I put her in a amall group with her peers and now she yells my name in the hall when she sees me and talks and talks. Anyhow, the more patient and accepting you are with these kids, the better they can do. It's kind of common sense, if a kid is crying and scared you don't yell in their face "stop crying". Hope that is somewhat helpful.

Master of none,

As a school administrator, I don't even know where to begin. First, get the 504 plan immediately. This is a legally binding document which the teacher MUST implement. Requirements may vary from state to state but in Florida if you have a diagnosis (ADHD, selective mutism) that affects student learning, you can get a 504 plan.

Second, there should be district guidelines that guide grading procedures for teachers. If you are unable to get clear answers from the teacher, I would go to the school administrator to discuss the situation. He or she can certainly give you district policy, but may also be the voice of advocacy that the teacher listens to. You can also check the accuracy of whether or not the teacher is "allowed" to teach above level. Typically, remarks like that are not accurately describing the school or district's policy. I've worked in 4 different districts in 2 states and have yet to know of any school or district administrator who wants to teach all children the same topic at the same time regardless of their abilities.

Lastly, continue to advocate for your child. You are not being unreasonable (from my OSH administrative position). The days of schools being nothing but preparation for assembly-line jobs are long gone and, at least in my district, students' INDIVIDUAL needs are met.

Sorry for the long post.

We like those around here. Especially when they're right!