Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Does your local school have a gifted program?

Ours doesn't. But then again, my son is PG, and the usual pull-out programs are aimed to the bulk of gifted kids, and wouldn't be likely to meet his needs. We used a gradeskip and a move to private school to get him to his readiness level.

Maybe this is sour grapes, because with a grade skip or two, pull out programs aimed at gifted can be quite useful to PG kids.

Afterschool, it's music, music, music, and some sports.

Smiles,
Trinity

Yes, our school has a gifted program but it consists of grouping the gifted kids in "clusters" of 4 to 8 kids within regular classes. This only applies to grades 4-6. For K-3, the kids are not formally identified, but are supposed to receive differentiated instruction. I have seen no evidence of that with my daughter's reading instruction, by the way. Hopefully, she will be identified next year during 3rd grade. The school does not accept any outside testing even though they will not evaluate the kids until 3rd grade.

Last year, they also offered Odyssey of the Mind as an after school activity. This was paid for using GATE money and was open to all students. GATE is very underfunded here. Our school receives $10 per GATE student per year. All $200 of last year's money was used to fund OM. I know it's a paltry amount and maybe that's how they could get the most for the money they had. Still, it bothers me that the money was not used for instruction of GATE students during school hours. What if some of the GATE kids couldn't participate in an after school activity due to scheduling issues?

Cathy

Wow, Dottie,
I always feel so sorry for the gifted kids in you school when I think about the way kids are distributed in the classrooms. Of course, I also feel bad about the kids who are "under the mark" on the FSIQ when they are over it by their GAI (Gifted Index - What does the A stand for?)

Cathy, I do have experience with a form of Clustering, at our old school, and it did help a bit socially at it was practiced. Interestingly, they reinvented the wheel, by putting the brightest Readers in one room, and the brightest Math-ers in another, by teacher report, and giving the groups to teachers who "liked Math" "liked reading" or "liked bright kids." When they finally explained what their plan had been to me, I said "Oh Clustering!" And they looked at me in puzzlement. They had never heard the word, when I gave them the classic article, they were amazed.

The model the was found to be effective through research, has the most unusual students grouped together, AND the teacher does differentiate the curriculum for this group, who will work together at their readiness level. Some kids are fine with working on an above level book in the back of the class, but that won't work for many others, so Clustering, if done well, can address this. The take home message here is that clustering works socially and academically IF the teacher creates a curriulum that is deeper or faster (or both) than what the average kid can handle.

Cathy A, you say that you haven't seen any differentiation in your daughter's reading program. This brings two questions to my mind.
1) Have you actually been in the room and seen what the other kids are doing? Perhaps you daughter is in the "top" reading group, but it's just so much less than what she is doing at home? Some schools cluster with more than one grade level for a particular subject. This doesn't cost a penny, but can be very effective. I particularly like the idea of all the kids walking around to get to their readiness groups, so that it isn't as it was for my son - a lone 4th grader heading to 5th grade Math Club as the herd of 5th graders pour through the hallways for recess. Way back when, by DH and a little group of 4 others always went up a grade when it was time for reading and math. He had a hard time "getting" what was the "big problem" with DS in school learning grade level material, because he had no first hand experience of how frustrating it is to always be given material below your readiness level all day long.

2) Has your daughter learned to "manage her image?" Some gifted kids who are more aware of social norms, and more able to modulate their behavior, often girls, but not always, are able to select from a series of personas in various situations. She may be "hiding" her reading talent in order to be "more like her friends." This is a mixed blessing, and will lead to the teacher underestimating what she needs. This is one of those key leadership roles for parents. If your daughter is playing Chameleon then it is up to you to make sure that she spends some of her time in an environment that allows each of her various "colors" to be shown.

A grade skip into next year's cluster is tempting possibility, because then she gets the social benifits of being with other smart kids, and the academic benifits of getting harder materials. There is a book that will lead you through figuring out if she is a good candidate for a grade skip, called the "Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual" - you will need individually administered IQ test, and a talent search's above level test to fill out the number in full.

There are lots of free or cheap ways to imporve the situation for gifted kids. In a way, you may be able to use the schools pilfering of the gifted budget to your advantage.
"Since I know that saving money is a big concern here, I would ask you to institute these cost-free ways to serve our gifted population."


Here's an article on talking to your teacher:
http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10296.aspx

Here's an article on "outing" your Chameleon Kid to her teachers:
http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10110.aspx

Opps, wasn't ready to hit send yet -
Here's an article on differentiation in the classroom- great for starting a discussion with the teacher about how to know if it is being done or not.
http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10331.aspx

Here's a scathing review of "pull-out programs" for gifted kids -
http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10253.aspx

But I still can't find the article that I though was called "Low cost or No cost accomidations for gifted kids." ((pout))

Well - enjoy!
Trinity

Thank you for the resources, Trinity!

Cathy

Hi Dottie,
I hope your daughter gets her "gifted girl" in her classroom this year. Do the middle schoolers stay together all day long in your middle school, or get switched around?

BTW - I am in no way "across the board gifted" - as I believe my spelling makes abundently clear. ((Of course some people assume that I'm just not a very good typist - wink - but you and I know better)) I'm also really terrible with certian details that my brian decides are "unimportant" and jettisons out the side hatch before "I" have much say in the matter. Oh well! Which is why I am so glad to have you back on these boards. Welcome Dear!

GAI -
gifted ability index
gifted attitude indicator
gifted AltImeter
gifted alliance innovator
Gai(a) - mother earth

Glad we're All In the together!

Trinity

We supposedly have clustering, but without formal identification. We supposedly have a gifted coordinator in our school, but she has no formal training in gifted education and does no programing. The teachers are supposed to approach her if they have questions regarding specific children's needs, but none have done so yet!!! Amazing.

This year, MN increased gifted funding. I'm anxious (yes as in nervous and worried) to see what the district is going to do with the increase and new mandates (ie the mandate to have acceleration policis in developed and in place)

Surprisingly, our schools in podunkville have a very good gifted program. In elementary school, there is a pull-out program (3 hrs/week) for gifted (>130 IQ). I do think this can be elitist, at least at some schools, where it's enrichment (field trips, special programs, etc. that all kids would enjoy) and parents seem to go crazy trying to get their kids into it. We also have a magnet mixed-age class for exceptionally gifted elementary students that is located at one school but has kids bused from all over town--it's self contained, full time and requires > 145 IQ. My kids have really benefitted from this program, but there are some quirky characters (see Trinity's posting about weird & gifted) over the years.

Middle school has honors classes and other classes that group gifted kids. We've selected a charter middle school that has no specific gifted program, but does a wonderful job differentiating curriculum and providing excellent enrichment for all.

My oldest starts high school this year and has honors and pre-AP classes, with gifted homeroom and mentorship opportunities, but I can't tell how that will be yet.

Our public district has a pull-out gifted enrichment program beginning in 3rd grade. Unless things have changed recently, the Otis �Lennon group test is used to determine participation. A neighbor told me that they only take the top 1% now. Our kids have participated in summer and winter programs managed, in part, by our district gifted instructor since they were five. They ENJOYED the courses, teachers and other participants, but would have needed more challenge during the rest of the school week.

Beginning in middle school, the public school does allow subject acceleration. However, they do not provide transportation to the high school, so families are forced to decide whether or not to give up income to chauffer their kids so that they can be adequately challenged and educated.

In my opinion, the Catholic school that we switched to has a more rigorous core curriculum than the public schools (comparing the 1st grade experiences of each of my children), so I have found it more beneficial for my kids to have early entranced or grade skipped into their present school than to wait around for a pull-out after four years of grade inflation and praise for zero effort. ~ This criticism reflects my opinion of the curriculum, not necessarily, the teachers who have to follow it.

The dilemma that we face regarding our 10 yo son�s education now is whether or not to grade advance him into 7th next month. Our preference is that he receives subject acceleration in math and possibly science. The school offered a full grade promotion in lieu of a promise for subject acceleration as the scheduling issues may be too difficult to align. So far, we are waiting and hoping (and praying) that they will arrange continued math acceleration to pre-algebra for him instead.

Dottie, I am not opposed to the idea of a double promotion like your son�s situation and probably would have jumped at the offer if it had been available three years ago or even last year. I do not regret that my son was early entranced in the least! There are several different variables to consider in his present situation that suggest that subject acceleration would be a better solution for him at this stage.

The sixth grade teachers and curriculum are out-standing at our school. I don�t want him to miss the study of ancient Greek, Roman, Egyptian and Asian civilizations. Literature class focuses on world mythology which he loves. My daughter developed excellent multi-tasking skills in sixth grade due to all the required projects. DS greatly admires the 6th grade teacher who taught him math last year and hopes to have her as his homeroom teacher, although he clearly wants to attend math class with the junior high math instructor. He really is in need of a positive student-teacher relationship.

I spoke to the admissions officer at the high school our son hopes to attend. He did not balk when I inquired about their consideration of younger students, provided they qualify academically. He did advise that if we were going to grade advance, we do it this year, rather than wait until next year. Athletics and knowledge that the bar would be raised considerably at this particular school curtails our eagerness to place our son two years earlier than the other intellectually gifted and academically talented boys who would be his peers. They offer vast course options with emphasis on math and science, including a multitude of AP classes so if he is accepted; I don�t think academic challenge would be a problem.

Hi Delbows,
Sounds like 6th grade is a wonderful year of school. My son just finished 6th grade that had a similar Ancient Studies focus in history, literature and they learned some Latin also. He found it very engaging and learned many study skills. I wonder if they can allow him to skip Math and do a tutor, or on-line class as a substitute. Although my son scored very high on the Hanna-Orleans Algebra Readiness test, which he took last October, as a 5th grader as part of the grade skip evaluation, when they moved him to 7th grade honors pre-algebra he had a very challenging time. If he had stayed in 5th and taken the 7th grade math, if would have been "just right" because he could have poured 99% of his energy and time into the Math, but as it was with needing 50% of his time and energy for the rest of school, he just didn't have enought hours in the day to get the 7th grade math into his mind. After about three months, we decided to bring him back to 6th grade math, with pull-out tutoring for 1/3 of the time. Personally, I feel like Math they can always do over the summer or on their own via computer, while History and Literature at their readiness level is something that is much more difficult to provide - but that may just reflect my own child's temperment. good luck whatever happenes!
Trin

Cym -
I think it's amazing that there is a self contained full time program for 145 and up. I wonder how much extra it cost to provide this? School are always moaning about how much extra gifted costs.

I agree that the pull out programs should be "fun and games." They should be work, that NT kids wouldn't want to do! I wonder why this happens?

Trinity

I agree with the comments above that if school gifted programs were less �fun� and more �academic� there may be fewer sore feelings about not being included. I would not cry if the whole �pull-out system� were replaced with early entrance, ability grouping (not tracking), subject acceleration and grade skips. Separate schools for 145+ would be ideal also. Of course, there will always be those who assert that individuals should not be moved forward academically because others may feel bad if another student is stronger in a subject and think it is social suicide for a gifted child to stand out (or away) from the group in any way.

Dottie, you are right that administrators should recognize that parents have evaluated their child�s situation far more extensively than anyone else. I also think there is something qualitatively different about parents who are willing to risk being socially ostracized to advocate for their children�s needs. They are probably far less concerned about �appearances� than those who allege a motive of prestige.

Hi Trin,
In think the difference in opinion as to which subject is easiest to pursue as self study has to do with the child�s greatest areas of interest. I would hate for DS to miss the instruction in literature class, but he could probably already fill out a family tree of the Greek gods, including corresponding tales and Roman counterparts. He would benefit more from classroom instruction in math. Some subjects such as vocabulary and spelling would be very easy to accomplish with self-study.

As far as the �pre� in the algebra, they get plenty of it in regular sixth grade math, and I would assume regular seventh grade math. The only ability group they provide at the school is for math beginning in seventh. The higher level for 7th is called pre-algebra, followed by algebra in 8th (if they pass). If the child takes regular grade math in 7th, they take pre-algebra in 8th grade. It may be counter to the school culture to refer to any class as �honors�.

I wouldn't cry either. I'd cheer. I would also cheer cross-grade ability grouping, multiage classrooms, and chances for children to "prove themselves in" to all the gifted offerings, if they are self-motivated and can do the work. I would cheer widely availible pre-testing so that no child has to spend time pretending to learn what they already know, or skills they already have, and compacting the curriula based on the pretesting. I would also cheer US children being expected to learn material that is percieved to be "too difficult" here, but is commonly learned by children in other countries, particularly 2nd language studies in the elementary schools.

Most of all, I would cheer schools allowing kids to try things that are difficult enough that they have to work to learn them well, and have the have the thrill of achievement after struggle.

When my DS was 3, and crying about me having to go to work and leave him in daycare, I developed this answer to his question of why?

"People work for 4 reasons -
1- to make money
2- to help other people
3- to use their special gifts
4- to grow inside"
I added that in my case, I was helping to change the world because I had trained for a job that was unthinkable for women while I was growing up.
"Grow inside" was my shorthand for developing areas of weakness of all kinds and building character.

I think that children go to school to:
1- grow their friendships
2- to have a larger circle outside the family
3- to use their special gifts
4- to grow inside

I think any successful school will have to address all these needs.

Smiles,
Trin

Oh I just love that Trin! Perfectly put!

I once heard Michael Shaunessey speak to a group of parents of gifted kids and he was terrific. He said that in the olden days there was the one-room school house. The modern K-12 education system was developed as a framework for public education. Shaunessey said that clearly that box doesn't fit all (or even many) and should be just be adjusted to suit the child. It shouldn't be so hard to adjust up or down and it shouldn't feel so set in stone. I try to remind myself of this when planning for each kid. Unfortunately the K-12 box is so ingrained in our society that skipping one grade is somewhat scandalous, and two or more would be downright child abuse (in others' minds). Even my childrenare against further acceleration because of the social stigma, even though they're happy to work a few grade levels above their "grade".

When you read the histories of great men and women, most of them finished college and/or medical or law school by age 20. Granted their lifespans were shorter and more information is available for study now, but the best education is doing, so I still don't see why we're determined to hold them back.

Our school district is huge, with a variety of G&T programs and schools. DC goes to the zone, neighborhood elementary school, which emphasizes project-based work and an individualized approach to teaching. Reading is based on kids picking their own books to read. Math emphasizes problem solving.

The school website and administration giving tours emphasize the "individualized" approach and parents touring the school can see all the amazing work on display.

I think that parents who think their kids are more than just a little gifted took a look at the city's gifted programs, which in our district appear to run maybe one year above grade level, but with a lot more homework, and opted instead to go to a school that provided "individualized" instruction and opportunity for fun.

I think this promise has drawn in parents of a number of students who would fall in the 98-99 gifted range, I suspect. I think the school administration doesn't really recognize the difference between privileged, coached, gifted and more gifted. And now that these fast learners are here, it isn't quite sure what to do with these kids. In DC's class of approximately 20 last year, three kids were reading at least five years above grade level. Several kids were above grade level in math and at least one was probably three years above grade level in math. And that's just in DC's class, in an urban school that doesn't do ability grouping, with a huge socio-economic range, including about half of kids getting reduced or free lunch.

A group of parents met with admin last year to discuss math enrichment for all students, including providing accelerated or enriched math for highly able students. We were told that
there's a big gap in math understanding in the early grades because some kids' parents have taught them more out of school and it pretty much all evens out as the slower kids catch up to the pushed kids.

They declined to commit to any enrichment that didn't reinforce state standards and curriculum (i.e., wouldn't help out with the standardized tests for the child's grade level) and insisted that the new version of Chicago math (TERC?) that they will be getting next year provides enrichment for able students in its supplementary computer disks, so that should take care of enrichment. When parents attested to the large numbers of students they had observed who exhibited some signs of being capable of accelerated or higher-grade-level math, admin stated that such children didn't have a "thorough" understanding of the concepts and would miss out if they didn't stick with the curriculum and limit enrichment to whatever enrichment TERC offered for their grade.

At any rate, I am reading the ditd.org guidebook on advocating for highly gifted children, with a goal of advocating for the many gifted, and (I suspect) several highly gifted children at the school. On the plus side, the admin was welcoming of parents' general ideas about providing math enrichment for the general school population, through family math days and math games days.