Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Dr. Ruff, schools and help

Firstly I hope that this in the right section. This forum has great information!

I posted a week ago about my DS who is 4, and received some great replies. So I bought and read the Dr. Ruff book (I can�t get myself past the �exceptional� bit in Gross� title yet�) as recommended. I think that he is in Level 4 going by milestones. But I have issues with some of it; he doesn�t read for pleasure i.e he won�t pick up a book and read it. He will read with me and to me but hasn�t got that insatiable bit yet. He�s not that interested in science, he doesn�t ask continuous questions about things like going from �why do we put petrol in a car?� to combustion for example. But he does ask questions about things that I don�t think are typical of a 4yr old; �why do we have eye lashes?� �what is fog?� and �why do the leaves fall off of the trees?� � and my answer �because it�s Autumn� wasn�t the correct one.

So I see no intense drive to learn, learn, learn (other than in maths) like is described. I did once � before he ever set foot inside a school. He is a very laid back child, polite, and a rule follower. But huge on fairness and he is quite pedantic about things.

He doesn�t have a passion right now (other than Maths which has been constant since forever), between 1-2 � he adored Thomas the tank engine from 2 � to 3 � he adored Pixar�s Cars. Now he quite likes Star Wars but it�s not all consuming like the other ones have been. I wonder if this highlights that the school situation isn�t so great.

Also in the book I got to the school options bit and read the bits for level 3 and 4. We only have the public (state) schools or private schools in my area. Primarily we can�t afford a private school; although I�m aware they have bursaries etc, but also I can�t drive so I have no way of getting him there. State school was the option she put as �must find an alternative�.

So do you have to be extremely motivated to be that (99th) gifted? He is like a normal 4 yr old who excels in math and reading. I know that testing is the best way to get a definite picture but having emailed around I�m looking at �600 minimum and that�s going to take us a while to get together what with Christmas. Even if we got him tested it will only satisfy us, I�m pretty sure the school is not going to change what they do. We have parent-teacher meeting next Tues and DP is suggesting if it seems to be appropriate he stays if not he wants to pull him out and home school. I see homeschool as a very viable option but I feel like I should be giving the school a chance. I�m too polite and would rather let someone walk over me than feel like I�m insulting them. I also think WAY too much about things and the thought that I am harming him in some way is stopping me from sleeping. All the various options are whizzing round my head and I have no idea where I am to start. If he is that gifted then is HS better? If he is how can I still be doubting it? Has school damaged him already? �.help?

Hi there and welcome to GT denial, as Kriston often says

I was feeling the same as you about my son (DS7) and seeing things that said he was gifted but then always having doubts about *how* gifted. Then doubting myself that he was truly gifted at all and that I was advocating for all the wrong things.

When I read Dr. Ruf's book I was sure he was a solid level 2, had lots of characteristics of a level 3 and one or two characteristics of a level 4. He is like your son. Very much like what you describe. Lots of questions but not the type often described by others. Never really questions concepts like death or existential stuff. Often "shuns" learning and tells us he prefers to "learn it on my own" - seems to prefer self discovery over being "taught." He was an early reader (before 4 years old) but doesn't have a voracious desire to read for pleasure. And he doesn't really have anything he is passionate about except maybe playing video and computer games!

But we actually took him to Dr. Ruf and she tested him and put him at a level 4! We were shocked. I said "he's not that motivated" and she replied, with a smile, "oh yes he is. Just not for what *you* want him to do!" She explained how personality types play into the way giftedness looks in children. My son is highly extroverted and very feeling - really outgoing and very sensitive. She said he doesn't read so much for pleasure because he'd prefer to be with people and doing something more actively engaging. Makes sense.

Don't worry too much about the level. My son is the exact same kid he was *before* we had him tested by Dr. Ruf. Her testing just confirmed what we were already experiencing. It did help to know that we were advocating in the right direction. She said he needed even MORE in the way of math differentiation. And that has helped tremendously. That's what you need to look at. Is your son happy where he is?? Mine wasn't.

I guess I don't really have an answer for you, just wanted to let you know that you aren't alone and your son is GT and you'll know what to do as you go along. I agree with Dottie. Look at those comments and see if the school setting is working for him. If testing helps you better understand his needs, then see if there's a way to get it done. But just follow your "mommy gut." I've learned that's the best guide we've got!

Is there any way you could compel the school to do the testing?

The thing that struck me is how you kept discounting the math interest. That counts as a passion, too!

It also sounds like school has not been great for your child. If he's an adapter--as many GT kids are--then he may have learned to keep his brain and curiosity quiet so he doesn't draw negative attention to himself. But that doesn't mean he's in a good place.

Though I am very grateful to Dr. Ruf for giving parents permission to see schools as not helpful for GT kids and permission to pull kids out of public schools, it is importnat to note that no one education option is right (or wrong) for all GT kids. Personality plays as much of a role as intelligence--maybe more of a role! So no one here can tell you that you should do this or shouldn't do that with your child. (Don't you wish someone would!) But as a homeschooler, I can tell you that the individualized eduation that I can give him through homeschooling has helped my child. It's a valid option for GT kids. Is it right for your child? Only you can say.

How does your son feel about school? Does he learn anything there? Is he happy? Is he growing, intellectually and emotionally? These are the questions I think you have to ask.

Is he damaged? Well, maybe. Maybe not. On the bright side, kids are resiliant. They recover from bad situations. But that doesn't mean they should STAY in bad situations any longer than absolutely necessary.

If you think he's in a bad situation now--and it's not clear from your post whether he is or not--then I'd say you probably need to do something for him. Grade acceleration, subject acceleration, in-class differentiation and homeschooling are just a few options that might work, depending upon your child and your school.

Has the school IDd him as GT? Are they supporting his needs and working with you? Or have you felt like they are working against your childn't interests?

If the school is amenable to working with you, then I'd start there. If you have been fighting them and feel hopeless about any chance of getting your son what he needs, then it's okay to take a different tack and pull him out of school. (Just, please, DO check your laws and school rules about homeschooling before you do this!)

It's a lot to think about, I know. <reassuring pat on the back>

thank you all for your insightful replies.

We had a horrible pre-school experience where he hated going to school, asked to stay home and his behavour was bad...but he was perfectly fine at the place. We took him out when the school basically said 'its not our problem' and a lot of suggestions that there was something wrong with him. He spent the next month led on the sofa watching TV all day with no interest in anything (i now think he was depressed). 6 months later my Dp and I started saying 'oh i remember he was like this before... It basically took 6 months for him to be truely happy again.
This is why i'm so frightened..it was such a gradual decline that it wasn't till it was bad that we noticed, then when we acted we were dismissed.

So he is now in a different school with a good reputation, and a good GT policy. They have said he is on the GT list. But we are in the UK and the list/policy is not law so it can just be lipservice. I tried to get the school to test him but as he doesn't disrupt the class they see no need - which is also why testing would be useless for advocating - 'gifted is gifted' it won't matter to them what degree.

When he started in April, everything was good. He was happy, enjoyed it. He got to go the the next year's class for maths, he got reading books. This term they wouldn't let him go up to the next year for maths they said they would differentiate. DS says that he only does 'easy maths', so i conclude either they are and its not the right level or they aren't. His teacher is very dismissive; 'you must spend ALOT of time with him', 'his social and motor skills are average' 'he doesn't read with expression'.

doodlebug - our sons sound very similar!

i'm not sure if he's in a bad situation. On day 2 of the school term he came home skip counting, but other than that i have not seen anything obvious. I think he is an adapter as you put it Kriston, when he walks in the class he loses all the expression on his face. If i ask about school he says that play time is fun he likes playing with his friends. If i ask about lessons he says not to ask him questions. So i have no real idea how he feels. In the morning he asks if he can 'just play cars today'. When i think of everything that he has learn in the past 2 months...they are things i've shown/taught him. At home he is extremely emotional and asks to do maths nearly every afternoon (for 1hr+). I usually find he has read his new school reading books before he left school.

They do not share what they are doing with him...i feel excluded so to speak. They've never asked what he has shown he can do. Hopefully parents evening will tell us what they are doing with him. If it's not at his readiness level, then we will be trying to initiate some way of them finding out what he is capable of. But i have found that the teachers/school are just not willing to accept 'suggestions' from parents.

Anyway, i've written way too much. thankyou for your help. I think i'm going to have to wait til Tuesday to make a plan. Hopefully i've been worrying for nothing.

Hi Mewzard - I am just chiming in because I also have a kid like yours (minus the love of maths!) From Ruf's book, i guessed him to be a level 3, and he turned out to be high level 4 or potential 5. My DS4 was a "sneak" reader - for the longest time, i knew he could read, but he wouldn't. Occasionally he would slip! Now, he'll read one chapter to us or switch off pages. But he has only once sat down by himself to read a book (and it was calvin and hobbes, to get ideas for mischief!) Now I see more of a difference between him and agemates simply from his advanced vocabulary, but most of the times he just seems like the other kids (except he can read at a very high level and can figure things out). I remember reading the gifted lists in Ruf and thinking, well my kid has zero sensitivity for others, he can't be that gifted. But each kid is different.

Our kids led parallel lives in the early years - we went through a thomas the train and cars movie phase here too. Now it's Lego star wars, lego indiana jones, lego batman (and their related wii counterparts!)

We are worrying about schools now. I agree with the others, that the school situation is unique to each gifted kid. What works for some will not work for others. One thing a good gifted specialist should be able to do is give you specific advice based on your child's personality. But with HG kids, you must at least be aware that if one situation is working out for schooling for one year (or half a year, or a few months), it may not work for the next year. Depending on the kid and the teachers you come across, you might have a great public school experience.

By the way, i think the motivation is what might push you into the level 5 in ruf's book, and this isn't something you can necessarily tell with youngsters who might not have found any particular passion yet. And I think you can be different levels in different areas.

Hopefully, you'll at least learn something at the parent/teacher conference (ie., whether or not they will do something more for your child). I'm sorry that they have been excluding you - I'm not too familiar with school laws in US or UK, but in the US, i think parents have a right to know how their child is being educated.

If not IQ testing, do you think your school would give an end-of-year test or other test so he can show his ability?

Wow they have led parallel lives. He is into lego star wars and lego indiana Jones (and their PS3 counterparts though not the wii).

I will ask if they can find some way of finding out his achievement. They have SAT at the end of y2 (approx 6-7yrs). i will admit we have done this at home (he saw me look at the papers online (out of curiosity) and made me print them out). He scored the same as an average 6 1/2 -7 yr old.

hello all -

I am chiming in because I am noticing some similarities between my ds4.5 on and what you are describing with your dc

It seems as though he is leveled off a bit lately. i.e. not really learning anything new at school.
His interest in math is much less intense, He has known all the letter sounds for a while but is not interested in reading right now or letting us know what words he can in fact read. (So bizarre, but I know many of you have been there)

This is his second year at Montessori where he had been doing really well. But a lot of his friends have moved on to other schools or have left the 2.5 to 5 yr class to go to the 5 and 6 class. I agreed with the teachers thinking to let him stay with with his class because then he could "be a leader".

But now I am remembering that he usually does better in an environment with at least a few older kids. (this has been true since he was 18 mos.) On top of that he is REALLY sad about the kids who have left. He is very social, outgoing and "into" people. The more I type, the more I remind myself that he is just plain lonely. For example, many inanimate objects in our house get names and personalities and become part of the family. I have some ideas on how to remedy this but that would call for a brand new thread...

Anyway, to return to the original topic, I just wanted to chime in that I understand your worry. It is super frustrating when the school situation is not ideal and our children are not thriving the way we know they can.

EW

p.s. what are the ages for the dc "living parallel lives"? My ds is not so much into thomas, still loves Cars(pixar).

Almost forgot I wanted to chime in on the Ruf's levels and the GT denial.

We won't be able to have our ds4y5m tested anytime soon. Some times I wonder if he is GT at all and if I should even be reading these boards. And then I have an aha moment. Yesterday we were at the library and my ds made a new friend. The library has a play area with blocks and other building sets and my son and the other boy quickly started making up games, cooperating, taking turns, building towers and making up scenarios. It was fascinating to watch them and hear them. The language they were both using seemed atypical for 4 year olds. "I know, what if we try this?..." "Oh, I see what your talking about..." etc.
And as for the social aspect, they introduced themselves and proceeded like they had know each other for ages.

They also did some spontaneous math. After putting together some plastic blocks that fit together...
other boy:"What do we do now?"
my ds: "I know, how about we split them up?"
ob:"Yeah you take half and I'll take half"
mds: "yeah, you take three and I'll take three because 3 plus 3 is 6"

The other boy was a lot smaller than my ds but it turns out he is 5 yrs old. And his mom seemed surprised to hear that my ds is not yet 5. We exchanged numbers and arranged to meet up again.

So in small pieces I am solving the problem of getting him around other (slightly older)kids he can relate to. But I have yet to figure out,

#1"Is school is no longer interesting for him to the point that he doesn't want to learn there? (and what to do if that is the case)
#2 LOG? Like others have said, when I read Ruf I see level 3, maybe a tiny bit of 4. Most of the time he seems like a regular kid who is just regular smart and advanced verbally. He is not reading yet. 3+3= 6 does not indicate HG+ but I know that is probably what he would be asked to do a year from now if he were to go to public K. etc. etc.

Enough rambling!

Mewzard - what are your thoughts on "afterschooling"

Hi EastnWest -
You gave me my laugh for the day. I'm a bit past the 'parenting a Kindergardener' stage, but I don't imagine that most Kindys are teaching 3+3=6. Maybe counting to 10? Most kindy kids don't really 'get' what numbers are - which is why it's so cool that your son used the idea of 'half' (a fraction) and 3+3 together with the play. I'm not saying he's HG+ based on that, but I can say, fairly confidently, that Gifted Denial is blocking you from seeing what 'Average' for age 4 and 5 are.

Your school district may have what it teachers in the various years posted on it's website under 'Scope and Sequence' - Or you can chat up a Mom with a child in Kindy and get a look at the worksheets that get sent home - Or you can check the workbooks sold in your local bookstore - Or you can request a trip into the classroom to observe the Kindy and 1st grade classes. I reccomend 'All of the Above' LOL!

As for LOG, I think that the idea of LOG is important, but knowing ones child's exact LOG from reading a book isn't easy. I wish that I had the book in front of me, but I think that she based the discriptions on 200 kids - which is wonderful - but very different than if she had had 2000 kids to base her lovely numbers on.

Personally - I think of kids as:
MG - moderatly gifted, likely to enjoy that 90 minute a week pull out program and 'ok' with that and an afterschool or saturday enrichment class.
HG - bored silly by the pull out if with agemates, likely to get perfectionistic or act out if not intellectually challenged on a daily basis.
PG - Just plain does stuff that mostly everyone recognises as 'weirdly smart' from an early age.

Smiles,
Grinty

Hi Mewsie -
I really feel for you on this on - no wonder you are 2nd guessing yourself.
I agree with Dottie that public schools can be wonderful places for HG/PG kids - IF, and it's a rather large IF, the school comes through with REAL accomidations, such as your school did last year with the 'subject acceleration.' Ask Dottie how many full grade skips and subject accelerations her DS needed to get to a point where Public School is working for him? Sure it happens over time, but what I would be looking for at this meeting is something like -

Child was happy last year with 'going up for Math' and is sad this year with 'In Class Differentiation' - let's try having him go up for Math again, ok?

Best Wishes,
Grinity

my DS is 4yrs 5mnths.

I seem to do alot of afterschooling, though not through intent - DS just askes to do something. 'lets do maths' or 'lets do drawing'. he does about 1hr after school.

Thanks Grinity!

I guess I could use a K reality check. lol

I like your take on the LOGs. IDing PG is the least ambiguous.
But those other two!!

I should take yours, and Kriston's and everyone else's advice to stop worrying now about what he will be like when it is time for pull outs.

In the near term I will see if I can talk up a kindy mom or two, as well as follow-up on your other suggestions.

I had read the state standards months ago. Mathwise, he does already know most of what the expected by the end of K. ex. "Students understand and describe simple additions and subtractions: Use concrete objects to determine the answers to addition and subtraction problems (for two numbers that are each less than 10)"
He knows a few of the things from the 1st grade list.

Pretty funny that after all my reading I am still not sure what " a typical 4 year old knows". A visit to a trad. 4 year old classroom is probably the best thing I can do at this point to understand "how advanced is he". His teacher for the last 2 years told me that she knows he is advanced and it is "not just because of Montessori" She didn't use any GT language though. For that and other reasons I have doubts that she has any special insight into how he learns best or what motivates him.

I am looking forward to see what Mewz' next move is for getting her son's school to budge.

Hi Mewzard -

We were cross posting!

Does the hour after school help?

As far as giving the school a chance,
Is there an open house or some other event where you could get a better a sense of what is going on there? Could you volunteer inthe classroom or at the school?

EW

Mewzard: It doesn't really sound to me like the school is doing much for him. I think you have to either step up the advocacy and push (gently and politely, of course!) for more, or you need to try another educational option entirely. If he's moving toward depression, then I think this is a budding crisis (if not already a crisis), and you do have to act.

Some kids are very vocal and obvious that there's a poor school fit. My son was. But he's NOT an adapter in that regard. Adapters tend to turn their frustration inward, as your son is doing. Frankly, I think that's a lot worse because the squeaky wheel gets the grease, but an adapter gets ignored.

I would urge you to pick a course of action and hop on it. Quickly.

My $.02, worth less than half that...

We get a newsletter every week that has the 6 curriculum topics on it, and the activities they will be doing. Thats my wake up call every week...when i see in black and white what most kids would be learning this year. 2 examples;

'to be able to write name copying from a name card'
'use language like heavier/lighter/small/big'

I find it amusing too that for all my reading i know that he isn't average but i still won't believe it.

EW - I'd love to volunteer but i also have a nearly 2yr old DD and i have no one to watch her. I have a opportunity to go see his class tomorrow for 30mins (there is a book fair - i'm not sure why we have been invited to see them?). So i'm going to go.
The hour after school is ok, fun and he likes doing it. We have always done things like this so i'm not able to say that it makes a difference.

I think we should to try and advocate for him, if it doesn't work we i don't think we will try to put him in another school - we just plain wouldn't trust another one.

Now just to work out what he needs...

Mewzard -

To clarify, the period of possible depression was after the bad preschool experience right? Things are not as bad this time? (Or is it hard to say if he turning his frustration inward and shutting down.)

You are looking to "do something" before things get bad a second time, right?

It sounds like with your current info, you are not liking your options thus far. (homeschool or gently nudge a school not likely to be nudged) What other options are you considering?
We cross posted again! You're going with advocacy!

Keep us posted on how it goes at the book fair.

Kriston - your 2 cents is always valuable.

what do you think of

Aw, thanks, ENW! I don't know that it's true, but it's nice of you to say. (I do talk out of my hat as often as not, I'm afraid!)

Yes it was at/after Pre-school. The thing about was that we didn't realise how bad he felt until it was really bad. He kept saying he was fine, and then ... complete refusal to go to school. So every time he says something like 'i just want to stay home and play cars' or similar i start freaking out that i'm missing something major.
I would happily homeschool him, but i want to give school a proper chance. I feel like i'm doing most of his mental work anyway...

The book fair was ok, we got to go in their class for 45 mins, during thier 'free play time'. DS made a rocket then played on the pc with his 2 friends. He seemed quite happy.

Kriston your 2 cents was really helpful! Actually everyones has been really helpful.

Wow.

I am in the uk too.

My ds was also into Thomas, then movie cars. He is also SERIOUSLY into lego, big time from age two. During each phase he totally absorbs himself in it.

He is also heavily into maths and numbers. The day before yesterday he was extremely happy because the headline in a national paper was two trillion pounds written in figures.

He does multiplication and division in his head and is very excited because i have just shown him the sign for infinity( I am definetely not a g+t mum!) He too fits level three with some level four and I was doubting it because of the motivation issue so I find this post reassuring. He has just started reception and we are already having serious trouble.

Where in the uk are you?

hi!
we are in Southern England, how about you? Ds also likes BIG numbers; i wish we bought the papers! He would have loved that!

Ds can do some x and / in his head, 2x5,3x4,12/3, etc. He wants a times table poster...we are still thinking about this - i dont want him to memorize the poster and not understand the concept (though i know he does).

Sorry to hear your son is having trouble, has the school regcognised his ability yet?

Yes and no.

I think that the teacher has no idea what to do with him. He is very wilful, loud and outspoken and has been rude to her. It is a very bad personality clash.

He is very fond of word play and rhymmes and makes up funny and rude alternatives to answers and names, including hers. Very funny, very clever but entirely inappropriate. She absolutely does not "get" him. In a lot of ways I actually feel sorry for her as he can run rings round her, just for fun.

She has given him harder books to read but insists he sits in on the jolly phonics, so he won't feel "left out." She also complains about his immaturity and lousy handwriting. As for the maths he has no accomodations whatsoever and has to take part in the "counting reliably to ten."

She was quite cross that he went to school reading and I get the feeeling that she is marking the days off until he goes up a year.

When he gets home from school I then have to work with him on the things that he really wants to do.

We bought a times table poster a few years ago and he uses it to check his answers when he does sums in his head. He hasnt learnt his tables, he likes to work it out in his head whilst doing something else, usually lego. All of his maths is done whilst doing something else, he just talks numbers while building incessantly with lego.

The same with reading, he actually learnt to read by asking how something was spelt and then repeating it to himself whilst doing something else at the same time.

Anyone else got a child like that?

We are East midlands/North but originate from London.

It sounds like he might be a kinesthetic learner. They learn best by moving while learning. If you've ever seen "Akeelah and the Bee," the movie about the girl who becomes a spelling bee champion, you have a good idea what kinesthestic learners might look like. Movement helps their brains to work better.

The other possibility that comes to mind is that he's just THAT smart, so he needs to be doing two things at once or he'd be bored.

DS is like this to a degree, we seem to do alot of maths whilst walking somewhere (we walk alot!). He also repeats things to himself whilst walking round the rug in our living room.

DS has to do Jolly phonics even though hes' known all the sounds+actions for about a year. He has now memorised the order they are taught in...

We seem to be doing an hour+ of things DS wants to do after school. Which is alot considering he is having a full day at school too.

Does your school have a G&T coordinator? IF you get no joy with the teacher maybe you could chat to him/her? Thats my next step after his teacher.

oh mewsie
I hope your visit goes well. Sad really how misplaced a child can be; still, witnessing the inanity in person gives a whole mother level of information- what is your child expected to do in the meantime?
Please consider developing a relationship with a sitter for your twosie. You can barter if need be. In my book you are are saving money.

kinesthetic learner.

boy, do I need to look that one up!

Nah, it just means a person who learns best through movement, like a visual learner learns best through seeing and an auditory learner learns best through listening.

Not as hard as it sounds, I promise!

Wiggleworms can often be kinesthetic learners. The have to be moving to get it. That can make a traditional "sit down and listen" teaching style drive them batty.

I'm a big fan of Suzette Haden Elgin, although I haven't read this particular book, I keep meaning to get around to it! I think it would be helpful in understanding kinesthetic learners.

Try to Feel It My Way: New Help for Touch Dominant People and Those Who Care About Them by Suzette Haden Elgin (Paperback - Nov 1996)

Since I'm also an 'non-linear' thinker, I generally get my ideas as 'seat of the pants' knowing that I don't really understand in words until I've typed a bit, and then I see connections that I was never consiously aware of. Typing is, BTW a favorite of Touch Dominant People.

Smiles,
Grinity

Hi! I am little late getting in on this one. I have a DS4 as well now, just turned 4 this summer. I read Losing our Minds by Ruf a few years ago (when he was 2) and found that according to her levels he would be a solid level 4, Everytime I go back and look he continues to be a 4 easily. I too got scared by all her comments about how he would never make it in certain settings and still fear that our school system will fail him miserably. And it may. He started a pre-k program that was mostly play based and ended up getting kicked out of it by the director after about 4 weeks (I won't go into all of it he did have some behaviors there, but nothing at all signficant enough for any child to get kicked out of a program...and the teacher informed me that she didn't want him out, but that the director decided it since she was going on maternity leave and couldn't handle the stress that may be caused). . Anyhow, we started him in a new program where he has been for 2 weeks and it is going great! The big difference is that the first place knew that he was bright...but still looked at him like the others and didn't feel like he needed much different than his peers since it was mostly a play-based program. They also had little structure and no classroom management system (no clear limits or expectations). This new place is catching on quick. By the third day my DS told me that the teacher brought in equations for them to do together and he was doing multiplication and division with her. This program is also significantly smaller and has a lot more one and one and has a classroom management system. He still doesn't relate with his peers much from what he tells me...but he seems to be enjoying it and is so proud of himself when he has a great day. They haven't seen any behavior problems with him, which is great. And his behavior at home has been back to normal since he started his new program...he was a little more off when he was in his last placement. We are nervous about K next year because I can't imagine them working individually with him like this. They will have 2-3x as many students and only one teacher. And I don't think HS is an option for us.

About not asking continuous questions, my DS asks similar questions that yours does. At 2 he would ask about water towers and how the water got into our house from the towers. Now he asks about how electricity works, and doorbells, and phones, he wonders about what would happen if leaves didn't fall off of trees, etc. I laughed about your autumn answer. My DS didn't like my answer about how doorbells work "you ring it and it goes ding-dong" I thought it was fairly simple, lol. He does like to read for pleasure, he is a great reader and often just sits silently and reads but we mostly read together. But somedays he only reads for like 20 minutes in a full day because he is a very active and busy kid. He tends to read more when it isn't nice outside. And he LOVES computers. That is what he is really into. He has no real obsessions of fascinations, and rarely has so I don't find that unusual. I don't find my DS all that motivated. Sometimes he wants to learn things..like his interest in Math. He is also interested in Spanish and sign language. He has known his alphabet in Spanish and in sign language for a couple years now...but now he is learning more sign language in pre-k and enjoys this. He enjoys knowing things that we don't know. And he is really into codes and word games. Anyhow, despite all of this and even though it is very clear that he is gifted...sometimes he doesn't get the simplest thing and I question his giftedness. I laugh about it because of how obvious it is...but I think every parent has denial at times.

Wow...sorry that was so incredibly long.

I used to tell my kids to stop making noises and/or jumping around when they were doing math or whatever. Then I realized that the fidgeting was actually a sign that they were concentrating. They don't always fidget while thinking, but it's pretty common. It usually stops once they really get absorbed in what they're doing.

Sometimes I need to have two things going simultaneously. If I'm going through data, I like to play music. It helps me sit still. If I'm watching TV, I MUST do something else, like play cards or do a puzzle. I actually don't watch TV so much as listen to it!

Val

Thankyou so much for this! I really enjoy reading about kids that sound so similar to my own! (not that i don't enjoy reading about others). My DS also loves Spanish and sign language. The Spanish is from watching Dora, but it is now branching out into other things like big numbers and the odd word. We taught them baby signs so both of my children use signs. There is/will be a child in his class with Down syndrome who i think uses Makaton which he seems excited to learn. He asks me often what the sign for X is or what the Spanish word for X is....I'm so glad for the Internet!!

I am starting to think that the reason DS doesn't read for pleasure is that he hasn't got silent reading so well yet. But last night he took a book to bed and we heard him reading it; so he is starting to.

DS often doesn't get the simplest thing too, DP and I often laugh about this. I'm pleased that the new place is going well for your DS.

I'm not a particularly kinesthetic learner, more visual-verbal. But I started knitting and reading when I was in high school, and it helps me concentrate and sit still.

I use the Continental method of knitting, so the yarn comes off my left hand with very little movement. (Most Americans knit with the right hand, and they have to move the whole right arm to make a stitch. I move one finger a tiny bit, and all my fingers are close to the work, so I can feel where things are.)

This method allows me to knit without looking at my work as long as the pattern is simple and doesn't require counting: a whole row of knits or purls or something like that. Voila! knitting and reading at the same time.

Knitting and reading at the same time is what got me through all the gosh-awful French literary theory I had to read during grad school, actually. It kept me anchored to my chair even when I would have loved to run away from my reading. (Oh, I *SO* would have loved to run away...Ick!)

So I hear you about doing two things at once helping you focus. It works for me.

Yes, it is very nice to talk with someone going through similar stuff. It's funny about the Spanish...DS often asks how to say numbers in spanish. He will randomly say..."mom...how do you say 84 in Spanish." I never really know why. And he loves roman numerals. He knows more of the letters than I do actually.

I agree about the silent reading. That does help for them to get more interested in reading. But again, my DS has days where he isn't all that interested in reading at all. I do still wonder if my DS comprehends everything though so I like to read together and stop and ask little questions like "why do you think he said that, what's going to happen next...or do you know what that means?" He usually does well but often times he will just read right on through without pausing even if he doesn't get something. And he reads as fast and practically as clear as I do so I really have to stop him quick.

What is Makaton by the way? I have never heard of that.

Anyhow, hope your DS's school situation works out and he is appropriately challenged...or at least is enjoying his experience there.

LOL Shellymos,
I watched DS12 skip a whole page while reading Artimis Fowl - when he was in 2nd grade. I thought that the book was a little too advanced for him and much too dark... sure enough, he put it down about 50 pages later, and, to my knowledge, hasn't ever read any of the books again.

In a way I think he understands things so deeply that he can miss a page here or there without missing much. I've noticed that when I listen to audio books, sometimes a few tracks are ruined due to scratches, and I'm usually pretty comfortable plowing ahead...not that I would do it on purpose, but there doesn't seem to be much 'there' there in a lot of the Young Adult books.

Smiles,
Grinity

I often ask DS about what is happening etc in the book because i often hear 'early readers don't understand what they are reading'.

Makaton is a sign language for learning disabled people. http://www.signedlanguage.co.uk/makaton.html

I remember reading things i didn't understand as a child (i think my reading ability surpassed my life experience), but a year or so later it would suddenly 'click' into place - yes i did retain the passage in my head that long!! Kinda funny becuase i can never remember things now!

In someways, I think this 'remember for later and click into place' is a hallmark of gifted kids. (Highly gifted kids?) Most people can't remember things that don't make sense, and I heard from many places that 'hearing without understanding' makes it even harder to learn later for most people, becuase they stop paying attention if they don't understand.

I think that my DS grew up with the things he understood being the majority of stuff, even as a baby. OTOH, It seems pretty normal for normally developing people to add layer upon layer of nuance to their understanding. By contrast, my DS seems quite 'married to his position' for how much he knows and understands. I do see signs that this is starting to flexible up, lately. In August, he even admitted that he had given me a bad fact, and corrected himself.

Interesting world, no?

Grinity

UPDATE;

So we had parents evening yesterday. All in all I think he is busy and being made to expland his thinking rather than being forced onwards e.g. they gave him a big light box and a small heavy box and asked which one did he think was heaviest etc.

We asked for better reading books and she agree to put him up one level. Which isn't anywhere near his level but is a step in the right direction. She agreed to do another reading assesment (lets hope it comes close to showing what he can read)- we explained that he was reading the two school books and then a Frog and Toad story at home.

She said that he would definatly go up a year for maths in the summer term (Apr-July), and i pushed for Spring, and she said they would consider it. I said that they could try it, if it's obvious he can't cope then he doesn't have to go again for a while - it's not permanent.
I was shocked that they had decided this! It seemed odd to me that they did it last year and then have retracted it but now i can see that they are doing interesting things with him (which fill in the paperwork ) but make him think.

We discussed some of his 'traits'; his perfectionism, that he does have a touch sensitivity (not extreme but still there), that he always thinks about things long after the time has past, the effort only in things that he wants to do and the fact it only takes one or two repetitions for him to completely understand something - which she had noticed .

So i am satisfied...i'm not 100% happy BUT i don't think i ever will be with a school (i have issues about schools in general). He is enjoying playing. And although we see some behaviour issues at home, we are aware of the something that is happening at school (that we think is causing it) and they are working on it.

I'm tacking on the end of this thread again.

They are not doing another reading test because 'it will invalidate the results'. I feel very frustrated. Tomorrow is the last day of term then we have a weeks holiday. I find myself trying to work out how to find the �600 for testing. He is being very rude, aggressive (hitting/pushing), and is being very emotional. His teacher did note this down at the parents evening - i said it was a red flag for us that he is not happy.

So i think if he is fine over the 1/2 term holiday then i am going over his teachers head to the g&t co-ordinator or the head and stating very clearly what *I* see is happening.

Sorry for venting! But i have no where else to do so.

That's why we're here. Vent all you need to, please!

{{hugs}} to you for all the trouble. I'm glad you're not letting the school brush this under the rug. Something has to change, clearly.

All the best to you! I'm pulling for a good resolution!

I'm tagging onto this thread as I just got Dr. Ruf's book yesterday, devoured it in one sitting and am so grateful to her right now.

It feels like I have suddenly had a light shined on our DS9 and what I'm seeing takes my breath away... So much about him makes perfect "sense" and instead of feeling all those explanatory sensations "but I think all (fill in the blank) is really because he's processing things differently" I'm finally feeling relief and JOY! at who this magnificent person truly is.

I tell you, her book has changed our lives.

I felt the same way about her book. Not everyone does, and the book isn't perfect. But it was *extremely* helpful for jarring me out of my GT denial and helping me see my son in context.